Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Open Carry Activists (Page 5)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5   
Author Topic: Open Carry Activists
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
I have to sympathise with the police/security types a bit when faced with open carry protests. While they know that most protests are peaceful and uneventful, they have to consider the possibility that things may not go as planned. Even though planners for open carry protests are likely more aware of the need to adhere to proper conduct (and probably less vulnerable to infiltration by rabble-rousers and others seeking to delegitimize the protests with violence [/cynic]), there's no guaranteed way to make sure that everybody behaves.

Yes, wouldn't it be scary if there were organized groups of individuals packing heat who were a constant threat to citizens and were prone to over-zealous use of violence, including against pregnant women and babies in their own homes?

Hint: This isn't open-carry protesters.

Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Seneca, because the severity of the event if something did happen is catastrophic. For one of the products I work with, I would need the probability to be from 1 in 10 thousand to 1 in a million (Depending on the size of the event)for the risk to be even minimally tolerableand. Have there been 10 thousand open carry protests?

Granted, there are a lot of factors that reduce the risk. From both sides being aware of the results of escalation to the more philosophical motives of the protest, but I'm not surprised decision makers aren't willing to rely on the sound judgement of protesters or people who think it's reasonable for everyone to be able to kill someone at a moment's notice.

ETA: Fenring, yes, it's ****ing terrifying. But unless you're willing to suggest that open carry is a solution to that particular problem, it's a bit of a non-sequitur.

[ March 09, 2015, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Air bags, seatbelts, auto insurance, health insurance, and firearm; all there to increase the odds of a favorable outcome should something bad happen. That’s also sensible.
None of those are actually designed to optimize your ability to kill someone else.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It all boils down to motivation Tom.

I carry a gun not because there are people I want to kill. I do so because I may encounter someone who is willing to, or wants to, kill me and I want to be more or as capable as they are in order to prevent that outcome.

Give me a Dune style personal shield and I'll trade up. [Smile] We live in a country/world with guns. I'd rather be a have than have not. Even if the predators and law breakers didn't use guns, I still reject a might makes right society.

An armed society is a social contract. It says to those who would take what they want unlawfully, "We accept that morality or legal punishment may not keep you in line. Does the threat of immediate pain, crippling or death do anything to curb your barbaric ways?"

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
An armed society is a social contract.
It seems to me, rather, that it is the exact opposite of a social contract. It is anarchy.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I suppose if we had more of a police state where eveyrone KNEW they would be caught and punished swiftly for breaking the law that could work...

I consider it the last safety net BEFORE anarchy.

1. Don't know or care about right from wrong? Go to #2.

2. Don't care about the police possibly catching you and incarcerating / fining you? Go to #3.

3. Don't care that some random citizen may shoot you for trying to harm them? Go to hell.

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The idea that an armed society is anarchic is clearly debunked by the #1 cities for gun control having the worst gun crime.
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It seems to me that reported crime statistics can't properly work as a metric for measuring anarchy, for a number of reasons. [Smile]
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, yes, cities that have more laws about guns is going to have more gun crime.

Sorry, I know that's not what you meant, but that's easily implied from what you wrote.

Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Well, yes, cities that have more laws about guns is going to have more gun crime.

Sorry, I know that's not what you meant, but that's easily implied from what you wrote.

Except that we know the gun control likely caused the crime surges. When the gun bans went into effect crime went up. As they have been forcibly removed by the courts crime has gone down. While that is only correlation by itself the logic along with it is sound and helps us establish causation. Criminals don't want to lose their lives. They are very greedy by nature and the more citizens that are lawfully armed the more criminals are deterred.

[ March 09, 2015, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You still didn't avoid the implication [Razz]

When a commonly available item is made illegal, crime goes up, you say? Then when it's made legal, crime goes down? How did that happen?

I'm not sorry enough, apparently.

Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's the kinda being clever that would get you slapped rather than a cookie when you are little NH. [Razz]

I don't think the rise in crime was all just the new infractiosn related only to those who are now breaking gun laws.

It was other crime which then seemed safer to perpetrate in an enviornment with less chance of getting shot for your dastardly ways.

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:


ETA: Fenring, yes, it's ****ing terrifying. But unless you're willing to suggest that open carry is a solution to that particular problem, it's a bit of a non-sequitur.

My point was that focusing on a visible and politicized issue such as open-carry that has actually never had a major problem so far and has never made the news to my awareness that demonstrates a severe hazard, is a waste of time when one could instead be discussing a clear and present danger that produces real fatalities all the time and which is much much scarier than people who want to be able to defend themselves with extreme prejudice. It's like the house is burning down and I'm going to start complaining that someone needs to shovel the front walkway. Someone could slip!

To make it worse it involves the very people that are supposed to protect the populace and make it feel safe. I personally think that whether or not open-carry is a good idea, it's of trivial threat value right now compared to the police and the national intelligence agencies.

Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Focusing on stopping someone from having the ability to kill you with a gun is a decent distraction from the fact that you yourself are probably doing far FAR more to endanger your own life via McDonalds or Coke-a-Cola and lack of excercise. (I know I am...)

Logic has no place in politics and public policy!

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Focusing on stopping someone from having the ability to kill you with a gun is a decent distraction from the fact that you yourself are probably doing far FAR more to endanger your own life via McDonalds or Coke-a-Cola and lack of excercise. (I know I am...)
In related news, we should really be ignoring the heck out of the Middle East.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes please
Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This Monday Texas becomes the 45th state to allow open carry. I suppose this answers the question about whether open carry demonstrations and activism work in expanding gun rights. They do.
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Has anyone here suggested that activism of any sort, when backed by hundreds of millions of dollars, is ineffective?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd like to see a spending report on the ads and PACs who supposedly pushed this vs fought it.
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm sure we all would. Sadly, Republicans made that impossible a few years ago.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Somehow I fail to believe the NRA or any other gun group dumped "hundreds millions" into this campaign for this state law.
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's adorable that you think it's a single-state campaign that's being waged.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Certainly there is Michael Bloomberg's $50+ million multi-state campaign to eradicate people's right to defend themselves. It's funded far beyond gun rights groups which are mostly member funded and don't have a select-few wealthy donors like the liberals who are bankrolling their show. Even the contributions that firearms manufacturers are putting in pale in comparison, and consider those are at least from groups of people whereas Bloomberg and his select posse are a mere handful of people.
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1