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Author Topic: article arstechnica regarding IRS lost emails
AI Wessex
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Don't forget that the so-called IRS illegal targeting encompassed liberal-sounding as well as conservative-sounding groups and so far nothing has been found to be illegal.

Sorry to interrupt, back to your "scandal".

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noel c.
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"Don't forget that the so-called IRS illegal targeting encompassed liberal-sounding as well as conservative-sounding groups and so far nothing has been found to be illegal.

Sorry to interrupt, back to your 'scandal'. "...

Ignorance is such bliss. :

"The official at the center of the Internal Revenue Service tea party scandal once dismissed complaints that labor unions were not reporting millions of dollars in political activities on their tax forms, according to an email obtained by The Daily Caller News Foundation.

In 2007, Lerner responded directly to a complaint that some major labor unions reported completely different amounts of political expenditures when filing with the IRS and the Department of Labor.

At the time of the email, Lerner was the Director of Exempt Organizations at the IRS.

Lerner wrote, 'We looked at the information you provided regarding organizations that report substantial amounts of political activity and lobbying expenditures on the DOL Form LM-2, but report little to no political expenditures on the Form 990 filed with the IRS.'

'We believe this difference in reporting does not necessarily indicate that the organization has incorrectly reported to either the DOL or the IRS,' Lerner concluded.

Don Todd, the deputy assistant secretary of the Office of Labor-Management Standards (OLMS) at the time the email was sent, confirmed seeing Lerner’s email and remembering similar complaints at the time. OLMS oversees labor union financial disclosures within the Department of Labor.

'The law’s never been enforced,' Todd told TheDCNF. 'The IRS was telling us it would cost more to enforce the law then they would collect.'

In 2006, the year leading up to Lerner’s email, the national headquarters for the AFL-CIO reported no direct or indirect political expenditures with the IRS on their 990 form, leaving the line 81a blank. That same year, the AFL-CIO reported $29,585,661 in political activities with the Department of Labor.

Also in 2006 the Teamsters Union reported no political expenditures with the IRS while at the same time reporting $7,081,965 with the Labor Department.

Again in 2006, Unite-Here reported no political activity with the IRS and $1,451,002 with the Labor Department.

In 2005, the National Education Association also reported no political expenditures with the IRS while at the same time reporting $24,985,250 with the Labor Department.

Labor union political spending overwhelmingly benefits Democrats. Todd told TheDCNF Lerner may have been playing favorites. Lerner has been accused of singling out tea party groups applying for tax-exempt status.

Lerner acknowledged in the 2007 email, * 'The definition of political campaign activity required to be reported on Form LM2 coincides with the definition of political campaign activity expenditures required to be reported on Form 990.' *

But she did offer some possible reasons for the discrepancies. 'The Form LM-2 does not separate this reporting from the reporting of lobbying expenditures,' she wrote. 'Furthermore, even if section 501(c)(5) labor organizations were required to report their lobbying expenditures, the amount required to be reported on Form LM-2 includes activity, such as attempting to influence regulations, that is not required to be reported as lobbying, as the IRS limitations apply to legislative lobbying.”

Lerner conceded, 'Having said that, we did see some instances that raised concerns and we referred that information to our Dallas office to determine whether examination is warranted.' It does not appear any further investigation was conducted.

The Bush administration mandated more detailed disclosure requirements for labor unions, but they were relaxed by the Obama administration’s Labor Department.

An IRS spokesman told TheDCNF the agency had no 'immediate comment' on the matter."

Article printed from The Daily Caller: http://dailycaller.com

URL to article: http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/01/email-reveals-lois-lerner-ignored-political-expenditures-by-unions/

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TomDavidson
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So, to clarify: having been unable to find any evidence of wrongdoing, Republicans are now second-guessing every decision to which Lerner's name is attached in hopes of finding something.

Best of luck dragging this one out 'til the election, noel.

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noel c.
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Tom,

"So, to clarify: having been unable to find any evidence of wrongdoing, Republicans are now second-guessing every decision to which Lerner's name is attached in hopes of finding something."...

Surely you jest.

Louis Lerner admitted herself it was "wrong" in her planted question episode. This is just more icing from the "lost" email trove. Why should the teamster's, teachers, and AFL-CIO be held to a different level of scrutiny than so-called "Tea Party" organizers?

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AI Wessex
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Illegal, Noel? If so, why hasn't she been arrested?

I think scandal fatigue has begun to set in. Recent analyses of prospective voter trends suggest that there is a growing backlash towards Republicans who harp on phony scandals. The perception that they are preventing government from functioning the way we expect will be one of the most important issues in the upcoming elections.

For instance, Benghazi - what Benghazi? Hear anything about it lately? How about Holder's many, many crimes? Even Obamacare is being left alone, because almost all states that have taken an interest are showing significant improvements in the health of their previous uninsured. States that have spurned it are suffering. Everyone will be able to see those statistics as they head to the polls.

I predict Obama's low approval ratings will also rebound somewhat by November, Democrats will keep the Senate and make inroads into the gerrymandered House constituency.

If the ISIS situation is contained by then, even more recognition of his carefully measured intervention strategy will help the Democrats.

Now, things certainly could fall apart by November. The steadily improved economic and employment figures could reverse, ISIS could strike within the US, Russia could tinker with the global economy to hurt US business abroad. A whole host of things could go wrong, but I am not seeing those things developing at this point.

You best hope for change, else things in Washington will get worse after the elections - I mean better.

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noel c.
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Al,

"Illegal, Noel? If so, why hasn't she been arrested?"...

In your mind... that constitutes a defensive argument?

A quick review for you Al :

Ms. Lerner plants a question in an audience of attorneys. She responds to her own public admission of wrongdoing, scapegoating rouge, "low level", IRS agents in Cinncinatti for "wrongly" targeting political action groups with typically conservative words/phrases in their titles. The "rogue" agents push back, and Ms. Lerner goes silent. Ms. Lerner is subpoenaed (twice) before Congress, and pleads the fifth regarding her actions as a public employee at the IRS.

"Lost" emails continue to trickle out confirming her detestation of conservatives. She is discovered to explicitly grant liberal unions a massive financial pass on the *precise* terms under which "suspect" conservative groups were precluded from recognition as non-profits.

She is an attorney. Her husband is an attorney. She had an attorney holding her hand at the congressional hearings. Do you think she is ambivalent about the criminal ramifications of her actions? Is she your sister or something? For heavens sake, the House was entitled to have the Sergeant at Arms arrest her for contempt of congress alone.

"I think scandal fatigue has begun to set in."...

You are absolutely correct. Apparently having a native African as your father vicariously immunizes this chief executive on the coat-tails of American slavery for virtually anything, but it is tiresome.

There are less than two years left. Some of the "phony scandals" are now institutional, and will require rooting under a more lawful administration.

The present embarrassment shall pass, and our nation will once again be respected in the world... by both friend, and foe.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Surely you jest.
Nope. Dead serious. This latest effort stinks of flopsweat and desperation. It'll play to the unthinking base, of course, but it's only good for keeping the "Lois Lerner is bad and, um, therefore Obama!" circlejerk going among those of the faithful who were running out of new things to cut and paste. It doesn't have any legs.
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noel c.
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"Nope. Dead serious. This latest effort stinks of flopsweat and desperation. It'll play to the unthinking base, of course, but it's only good for keeping the 'Lois Lerner is bad and, um, therefore Obama!' circlejerk going among those of the faithful who were running out of new things to cut and paste. It doesn't have any legs."...

... Paradigmatic Tom. Where's the substance to this prattle?

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AI Wessex
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quote:
You are absolutely correct. Apparently having a native African as your father vicariously immunizes this chief executive on the coat-tails of American slavery for virtually anything, but it is tiresome.
Bizarre statements like that are one of the things that make you unique here.
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noel c.
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"Bizarre statements like that are one of the things that make you unique here."...

Bizarre denials are what make you predictable. [Wink]

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TomDavidson
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noel, you probably shouldn't feel too smug about being able to predict that people will find your statements laughably bizarre when they aren't offensively so.

"Al is going to think I'm so stupid!" isn't really the sort of prediction that'll get you into the top ranks. *laugh*

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noel c.
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Tom,

"noel, you probably shouldn't feel too smug about being able to predict that people will find your statements laughably bizarre when they aren't offensively so."...

This is then an opportunity, apparently, to shed the skin of superficiality. What is "offensive" about my statement? Please be specific, and substantive.

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TomDavidson
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For one thing, you are implying that Obama has sailed through his presidency with "immunity" derived from being a dark-skinned non-native, somehow playing the race card to avoid scandals that would drag down a whiter and less foreign-born man.

This is laughable. I mean, it literally depicts a universe that is completely opposed to the reality in which we live, one that can only be perceived by someone with absolutely no sense of perspective or history. It's not particularly offensive to me -- and let's note for the record that neither I nor Al said that specific post was offensive, merely "bizarre" -- but I think there is certainly room for someone to take offense at your decision to turn two of Obama's most serious challenges (namely, the racism of a significant chunk of the electorate and his own somewhat troubled childhood) into justifications for why none of the crap his opponents have tried to smear him with has actually resulted in anything more than a cynical audience increasingly weary of Republicans crying wolf. (Or birtherbenghazitakeyergunssocialistantichrist, I suppose, since "wolf" isn't a wedge issue.)

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Seneca
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I must be racist against Obama! That's the only explanation for why I think he's harming the country!

[Roll Eyes]

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noel c.
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"For one thing, you are implying that Obama has sailed through his presidency with 'immunity' derived from being a dark-skinned non-native, somehow playing the race card to avoid scandals that would drag down a whiter and less foreign-born man."...

The "less foreign-born" is a canard. Barry is as white, and native-born as you, but the rest is an accurate restatement of what I said.

How is it offensive to you? Eric Holder, and Oprah, are convinced that he *can't* get anything done because of his race. Do you agree with them?

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scifibum
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Are you as obsessed with Obama's background as noel is, then, Seneca?
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TomDavidson
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quote:
How is it offensive to you?
You continue to ask me a very baffling question.
Why do you think that particular observation was offensive to me, personally?

I mean, seriously, if you're trying to argue that you don't regularly inject a little extra bizarre into our lives, this probably isn't the way you should do it.

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noel c.
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"You continue to ask me a very baffling question.
Why do you think that particular observation was offensive to me, personally?"...

... Because you said this; "It's not particularly offensive to me - -"...

Does that mean - mildly offended - ? What are you really trying to say?

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TomDavidson
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I am trying to say, noel, exactly what I did say: that it's a "laughably bizarre" position for you to take, and that it's easy to see why someone might consider it offensive even if it's not particularly offensive to me. I'm not sure why this is unclear to you.
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noel c.
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Scifibum,

"Are you as obsessed with Obama's background as noel is, then, Seneca?"...

A little more concentration on Barry's credentials could have saved the world a lot of grief. It is an "obsession" you may want to develop prior to the next election.

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noel c.
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"I am trying to say, noel, exactly what I did say: that it's a 'laughably bizarre' position for you to take... "...

No you interjected the word "offensive" all by yourself. Explain it by yourself.

"... and that it's easy to see why someone might consider it offensive even if it's not particularly offensive to me." ...

Explain why this is "easy".

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TomDavidson
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Suggestion: go back and read what I wrote. It will help you, I suspect.

quote:
Explain why this is "easy".
I did. I wrote a paragraph on it, in fact.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
Scifibum,

"Are you as obsessed with Obama's background as noel is, then, Seneca?"...

A little more concentration on Barry's credentials could have saved the world a lot of grief. It is an "obsession" you may want to develop prior to the next election.

Step 1: Somehow achieve the delusion that I can infer world impact from candidate's childhood experiences.
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noel c.
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I'm kinda slo Tom. Mak it cimpl fur me.
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noel c.
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"Step 1: Somehow achieve the delusion that I can infer world impact from candidate's childhood experiences."...

Step 2: Do not conflate a conclusion with your premise.

Step 3: Do not vote for someone with no executive experience for the most important executive position on Earth.

Step 4: Recognize that troubled children turn into troubled adults... bad mojo.

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TomDavidson
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Okay. There are two separate issues at play here, apparently, since you've discarded the pretense that this Lerner thing matters:

1) That you believe I said I'm offended by your Obama remark.

2) That I believe it would be easy for someone to be offended by your Obama remark.

To point #1, you will notice that I specifically observed that you tended to make statements that were laughably bizarre when they were not offensive. I was not actually speaking of any particular statement, but you immediately asked what might be offensive in what you'd said to Al.

To point #2, I replied (at your request) with what I thought would be the most likely source of offense. I felt it might well resonate among certain of Obama's defenders with a "well, you poor people don't even have to buy food, so you have it so easy!" layer of unintentional irony.

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noel c.
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"Okay. There are two separate issues at play here, apparently, since you've discarded the pretense that this Lerner thing matters: "...

Correct on first comment, wrong on second. "Lerner" things happen when unlawful children acquire political power.

"To point #1, you will notice that I specifically observed that you tended to make statements that were laughably bizarre when they were not offensive. I was not actually speaking of any particular statement, but you immediately asked what might be offensive in what you'd said to Al."...

Okay, so you were being gratuitously inane, or do you really believe that I say only bizarre, or offensive things?

"To point #2, I replied (at your request) with what I thought would be the most likely source of offense. I felt it might well resonate among certain of Obama's defenders with a 'well, you poor people don't even have to buy food, so you have it so easy' layer of unintentional irony."...

So ~30% of Americans are now receiving federal food assistance, what does this have to do with the issue at hand?

Is that really the best quasi-explanation you can come up with... seriously?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
do you really believe that I say only bizarre, or offensive things?
I think there's about a 5% chance that you could report the weather or discuss Cisco routers without somehow tying the conversation to Obama's childhood, so no. I just think that you overwhelmingly say bizarre or offensive things.

quote:
So ~30% of Americans are now receiving federal food assistance, what does this have to do with the issue at hand?
Hm. Noel, in all seriousness, are you mildly autistic? I ask because it should be fairly easy for you to understand why the quote I came up with as an analogy would be offensive; it requires only basic empathy. Your baffling focus on the percentage of the population receiving assistance -- which is completely irrelevant to the example -- suggests that your brain may not in fact be wired like most people's.

Tom: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ September 04, 2014, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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Pete at Home
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Tom, as best i can tell, Noel requested your opinion of what his posts, not your opinion of his mental health and cognitive functioning.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
For one thing, you are implying that Obama has sailed through his presidency with "immunity" derived from being a dark-skinned non-native, somehow playing the race card to avoid scandals that would drag down a whiter and less foreign-born man.


What's this about Barry having dark skin? When folks talked about his race, I always as soon to there talking about his large protruding ears, and that he shared some.obscure race with Ross Perot.
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noel c.
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Tom,

"I think there's about a 5% chance that you could report the weather or discuss Cisco routers without somehow tying the conversation to Obama's childhood, so no. I just think that you overwhelmingly say bizarre or offensive things."...

Okay, I was right on the first guess; you were being gratuitously inane.

"Hm. Noel, in all seriousness, are you mildly autistic?"...

... Possibly; my daughter says I suffer from Aspergers, and a relatively high IQ.

I ask because it should be fairly easy for you to understand why the quote I came up with as an analogy would be offensive; it requires only basic empathy."...

I was not asking for an "analogy", but an "explanation". You understand that they are not interchangeable, correct?

"Your baffling focus on the percentage of the population receiving assistance -- which is completely irrelevant to the example -- suggests that your brain may not in fact be wired like most people's."...

Actually, if I am looking for an "explanation", as opposed to an "analogy", it is peripherally relevant. Barry has expanded the dependent constituency. The polemical problem, in context, is chronology. A significant number of the food stamp recipients probably did not like Barry enough to vote for him prior to present economic circumstances... not that they like him now, but they will reflexively seek a socialist as his replacement from pure need.

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Seneca
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I think it's pretty clear from these emails that Lerner was giving the unions a big pass where she wasn't giving that to conservative groups. Does that make me a racist?
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TomDavidson
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quote:
You understand that they are not interchangeable, correct?
Absolutely. The explanation, which I also provided, was that your observation might be considered offensive for the same reason that "poor people are so lucky because they get free food" would be offensive. Do you understand why the latter is offensive? I believe that "Obama gets a free pass from all his horrible scandals because he can play the race card" would be offensive to some people for almost exactly the same reasons.

And, yes, your attempt to yet again wander off into a random anti-Obama diatribe (and then double down on it) is, as has been previously noted, bizarre.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I think it's pretty clear from these emails that Lerner was giving the unions a big pass where she wasn't giving that to conservative groups.
Which emails show Lerner following up on DoL reporting discrepancies among conservative groups? We see here examples of her giving a few unions a pass, and bumping other unions and exempt organizations to legal to get their opinion. Where do we see examples of her not giving conservative exempt groups a similar pass when their reports to Labor differed from their IRS filings?
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noel c.
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"I believe that 'Obama gets a free pass from all his horrible scandals because he can play the race card' would be offensive to some people for almost exactly the same reasons."...

Holder, and Oprah, play the "race card" with regularity. Should that merit my "empathy"?

"And, yes, your attempt to yet again wander off into a random anti-Obama diatribe (and then double down on it) is, as has been previously noted, bizarre."...

Of course, we should be indifferent to the ramifications of electing a predictively unqualified CEO. As I recall, that was Hillary's primary attack angle during the 2008 election. (Damn racist)

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noel c.
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"We see here examples of her giving a few unions a pass, and bumping other unions and exempt organizations to legal to get their opinion."...

(Choke)... Did you really read the link?

"Where do we see examples of her not giving conservative exempt groups a similar pass when their reports to Labor differed from their IRS filings?"...

Umm... Tom, "conservative groups" do not file with the Department of Labor. She simply acknowledged in the 2007 email; "The definition of political campaign activity required to be reported on Form LM2 coincides with the definition of political campaign activity expenditures required to be reported on Form 990."...

In other words, labor unions were required to file the same form that "Tea Party" groups do. The law was not enforced, allegedly, because it was not cost effective. Apparently conservative groups have a larger slush fund that the teamsters, teachers, and AFL-CIO.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Holder, and Oprah, play the "race card" with regularity. Should that merit my "empathy"?
The question is not "should you sympathize with Oprah," but rather "why would someone be offended by the suggestion that Obama has only escaped scandal because he's black?" Hopefully you now understand.
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noel c.
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"The question is not 'should you sympathize with Oprah,' but rather 'why would someone be offended by the suggestion that Obama has only escaped scandal because he's black?' Hopefully you now understand."...

There you go again, why should I (or you) "understand"? Affirmative action is not viewed by the left as offensive in college admissions. Except for practical reasons, why should the presidency be any different?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
There you go again, why should I (or you) "understand"?
Well, you asked the question. That implies a desire to understand, although I suppose you might have other motives.

It seems to me, based on your last couple of sentences there, that a willful desire to discount the validity of the thoughts and feelings of those who disagree with you -- on premises and/or conclusions -- might make this sort of understanding very difficult for you. I suggest that you try to come up with your own answer to the question you asked, namely: "Why might someone who is not offended by the existence of affirmative action programs for college admissions be offended by the assertion that the current president has only avoided prosecution for various scandals due to his slightly darker skin?"

I would hope that you can answer this question for yourself in a way that acknowledges the humanity and internally consistent worldview of someone who holds that opinion. It'd be useful to you as a mental exercise, if nothing else.

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noel c.
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"... 'Why might someone who is not offended by the existence of affirmative action programs for college admissions be offended by the assertion that the current president has only avoided prosecution for various scandals due to his slightly darker skin?' "...

Now you are focused. Please answer the question completely, and by yourself. I will even accept an appeal to "humanity" if it is compelling.

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