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Author Topic: article arstechnica regarding IRS lost emails
LetterRip
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Another important thing to note - is roughly 1/3 of the computer users will have a failure during any 3 year period.
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Seneca
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But in 2014 and given the retention policies of the government as well as what the government expects taxpayers to have for their taxes, the failure to have this data backed up at this scale across this amount of people isn't believable.
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AI Wessex
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I think it is. If the IRS had been funded appropriately over the past 10-15 years, perhaps they wouldn't have been doing maintenance on a shoestring.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
So this friday, just before the federal government shutdown, an info. dump from the administration casually revealed that the 2 agents from Cincinnati who were supposed to be the fall guy & girl have now lost their relevant emails.

But don't worry, the IRS evaluated all of this and determined that the IRS committed no wrongdoing.

Wouldn't trials be faster if we let the accused simply exonerate themselves?

Can you link to a story about this?
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scifibum
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Never mind, I found a story. It appears to be exactly the same as before - it looks entirely innocuous if you aren't already convinced there is a conspiracy, and those who are so convinced are still equally convinced.

[ September 06, 2014, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: scifibum ]

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Seneca
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Looks like the Obama administration has found a new response to any problem.

All staff lose all pertinent emails all the time whenever necessary. Totally innocuous. No problems here! It's interesting to see who blindly accepts that approach. I can only imagine what liberals would say if this were Bush...

Oh wait, we don't have to imagine. We know what they said about emails the Bush admin. "lost" because they used non-government webmail then "lost" the mails. This is similar to how the IRS refuses to follow established backup procedures. I guess it's only wrong when an administration with an (R) after its name does it, right?

[ September 06, 2014, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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TomDavidson
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By "Obama administration," you mean the IRS?
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scifibum
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quote:
All staff lose all pertinent emails all the time whenever necessary. Totally innocuous. No problems here! It's interesting to see who blindly accepts that approach. I can only imagine what liberals would say if this were Bush.
This isn't what happened. What happened is that some hard drives crashed, as hard drives do. Pertinent (as in, involving the same people and the same time frame) emails still exist on other hard drives, and have been turned over. There is no indication that pertinent facts are being suppressed.
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Seneca
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No, the pertinent emails which showed communication between top level admin officials and the agency officials who executed the orders to target conservative groups were "lost."

This is very similar to the Bush admin's different approach to "losing" emails that might have shown illicit activity coordination.

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AI Wessex
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In other words, the fact that you can't find emails you're convinced must exist (but have no evidence for) means that they *did* exist but were destroyed. That's a textbook example of conspiracy theory thinking. You spend a lot of mental cycles worrying about things you insist are true but can't prove.
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Seneca
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The level of data loss across so many individuals failing to adhere to backup rules is staggering. Believing it's all a coincidence would be the height of naiveté.
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AI Wessex
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So you don't have any actual evidence. Got it.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Believing it's all a coincidence would be the height of naiveté.
The opposite of naiveté is certainty without evidence. You should note that no one has said there is no evidence. I think we're all willing to accept it if it turns up, but are doubtful it is there to find. OTOH, you insist there there is, despite the fact that it has never been found and there is no direct basis to believe it exists. Isn't it even a little odd to you that not a single one of the "incriminating" emails has ever been found on any other computer or server?

It's a matter of faith for you, like many other topics on which you have absolute and unshakable opinions.

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Seneca
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Quite the contrary, from Lerner’s earliest admissions, to Obama's televised admissions and apologies, to the IG's report, to now numerous losses of data caches after it was clear investigations were forthcoming there have been waves of illegality. Only someone with faith in Obama would deny it at this point.
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AI Wessex
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At least we don't need evidence to believe it, whereas you do need evidence for your position that you don't have, yet you believe it anyway. Faith is a powerful thing.
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scifibum
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"Quite the contrary, from Lerner’s earliest admissions, to Obama's televised admissions and apologies, to the IG's report, to now numerous losses of data caches after it was clear investigations were forthcoming there have been waves of illegality."

Some of these things are not like the others. Lerner and Obama both admitted to improper procedures, and the IRS worked on fixing the problem before the GOP started investigating. What they hastened to disclose and fix wasn't criminal, just improper.

The ongoing investigation is based on the conviction (or pretense of one) that there's something more, even though no one has found evidence for something more. (Lerner pled the 5th but nobody knows why, exactly.)

This investigation started from a conviction that there was evidence to find. We didn't start with evidence of a crime and then try to find out more, we started with some people being sure there was a crime even though we don't know what it was.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
The level of data loss across so many individuals failing to adhere to backup rules is staggering. Believing it's all a coincidence would be the height of naiveté.

There is absolutely no reason it shouldn't be seen as a coincidence for a small number of hard drives in a such a large group to fail over the kind of time span we're talking about. You've steadfastly ignored the math that points this out.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
The level of data loss across so many individuals failing to adhere to backup rules is staggering. Believing it's all a coincidence would be the height of naiveté.

There is absolutely no reason it shouldn't be seen as a coincidence for a small number of hard drives in a such a large group to fail over the kind of time span we're talking about. You've steadfastly ignored the math that points this out.
And you're steadfastly ignoring that every single loss seems to be someone who ignored the data retention rules of the agency. How could there be a 100% failure of ALL the specific individuals being investigated having failed to follow proper backup procedures?
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scifibum
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No, I don't think the individuals are notable for their data retention compliance. Why do you think so? It was their IT department's job to maintain backups of electronic data.
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AI Wessex
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My company has a data retention policy that is defined and implemented by IT, not by individual users, and we *are* expert computer users. IRS personnel are business and financial types who *use* computers. There's a world of difference between those two kinds of computer users. One thing the groups have in common is that managing our computers is not in our job descriptions; it would be a distraction from what our employers hired us to do.

It would be nuts to tell 90,000 employees that they each have to manage their own email archival. Like I said, the IRS has been underfunded and undermanned for at least 15 years. These problems are a direct result of that failure to give them the tools they need to do this kind of job.

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Seneca
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So who works for a company here that doesn't allow users access to their own backups at all?
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MattP
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Um... most of us?

I've been in tech for 20+ years and have never had direct access to corporate backups. Anything that wasn't still visible on my computer would have required considerable effort to access such that it wouldn't be worth the effort unless there were an actual legal action or server failure, in which case it would still be up to the IT people to retrieve it, not me.

I'm not prohibited from making my own backups independently, but see no reason to bother doing so and I know very few people that do.

[ September 07, 2014, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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AI Wessex
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Similar for me. I'm allocated a certain amount of disk for my email. I'm free to back up or delete things locally if I choose to, but not to an external site. My account is frozen when I reach the limit and the archival process kicks in. When it's done my account is unfrozen.
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TomDavidson
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I haven't worked for a company that allowed users to access their own backups since 1996, not counting things like Volume Shadow Copy.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Quite the contrary, from Lerner’s earliest admissions, to Obama's televised admissions and apologies,

For using politically specific terms, which could then be cherry picked into an issue that didn't exist. Not for the issue which doesn't exist.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
Another important thing to note - is roughly 1/3 of the computer users will have a failure during any 3 year period.

Even more important to note - that ratio appears to rise to roughly 3/3 if the computer user is connected to Lois Lerner.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
By "Obama administration," you mean the IRS?

What branch of the government do you think the IRS belongs to?
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TomDavidson
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Do you see a distinction between "the executive branch" and "the Obama administration?" Because you should.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Even more important to note - that ratio appears to rise to roughly 3/3 if the computer user is connected to Lois Lerner.
More closely the frequency depends on your chosen source of information.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Do you see a distinction between "the executive branch" and "the Obama administration?" Because you should.

Maybe you should explain it, just to be clear.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Do you see a distinction between "the executive branch" and "the Obama administration?" Because you should.

Maybe you should explain it, just to be clear.
The Obama Administration would be Obama and the people he brought in to carry out his goals.

The Executive Branch would be every one whose job falls under the executive branch of the federal government.

Most of the employees in the executive branch have nothing to do with Obama. They weren't hired by him, they don't report to him. They were already there when he came in and will still be there when he leaves. For most of those employees the occupant of the White House is irrelevant. As are the politics of the occupant of the White House.

That would be why trying to cast the entire executive branch as the Obama administration would be a little silly.

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Rafi
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So it's only people directly appointed by Obama to seve in the executive branch that are "Obama administration"? Everyone else ultimately reports to and takes direction from ....who? Who sets the direction and focus for these anonymous bureaucrats?
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AI Wessex
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Dang, another scandal undone. Will it never end?!?
quote:
The IRS did mishandle tea party and conservative groups’ nonprofit applications, but their behavior didn’t break any laws, the Justice Department said in a letter to Congress Friday that cleared the tax agency and former senior executive Lois G. Lerner of any crimes.

“Ineffective management is not a crime,” Assistant Attorney General Peter J. Kadzik said in a letter to the House Ways and Means Committee. “The Department of Justice’s exhaustive probe revealed no evidence that would support a criminal prosecution. What occurred is disquieting and may necessitate corrective action — but it does not warrant criminal prosecution.”

The decision comes more than two years after the IRS’s internal watchdog reported that auditors singled out tea party groups’ applications for special scrutiny and delayed those applications beyond reasonable timelines, preventing the groups from being able to say they were officially recognized nonprofits.


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scifibum
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It would be ideal for Lerner to speak up about whatever she was pleading the 5th about, now.

I think it was the wrong move to plead the 5th about this, and my guess about why she was doing so is that she had a wrongheaded idea that she could be prosecuted for the things the Justice Department has now said are not crimes.

Remaining quiet only fuels the conspiracy theory.

(Of course, if there is some crime she's hiding, it would be best if she spoke up about it. I think that's unlikely, because I think there'd be some evidence of some kind, but so far there isn't.)

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Rafi
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So the Obama admin investigated itself and found no wrongdoing. Shocking.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
So the Obama admin investigated itself and found no wrongdoing. Shocking.

They found lots of wrongdoing, they didn't find anything that was done illegally.
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Rafi
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And you know what, they never will. Targeting political opponents through extralegal means and secret investigations is apparently kind of a thing for democrats.
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AI Wessex
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Some people will never be satisfied. One day Rafi/G# will post something that invites serious conversation...or not.
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Wayward Son
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Well, it sounds like Mike Huckabee's your man, G2. The only one who will stand up and speak the truth!

Of course, you'll have to accept some other stuff with him, too. [Smile]

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