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Author Topic: ZZZzzzZZZzzz.... There they go again in the Middle East .....
Hannibal
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Hi guys,

As you may have heard, Israel and Hamas are at it again. Not to say that I am equating Israel and Hamas in anyway. Obviously the Hamas and the people who voted for it deserve what they are getting and even more. But that is not why I am starting this topic. The fact that Israel has also began to receive some "gifts" from Lebanon and Syria is also not the reason (however, don't be surprised if those will receive their dues as well).

The reason for starting is topic is this:

Do you guys even care anymore ? Or do you simply look at this conflict as two moronic tribes in the Middle East that simply know nothing else than killing each other ?

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TomDavidson
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Yeah, moronic tribes.
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Greg Davidson
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I think it's more that there are extremist Palestinians and right-wing Israelis who are in a relationship that may be either called codependent or just mutually beneficial - they each profit in terms of their own domestic political advantage when there is killing. Those Palestinians who killed the three Israeli teenagers have probably achieved exactly what they wanted - an Israeli over-reaction that did not kill them, but instead targeted other Palestinians and doubtless resulted in the deaths of dozens of innocents. I don't believe that this is solely the action of rationale, cold-blooded murder - I also believe that some of these extremist elements also get off on the adrenaline of self-righteous retaliation for harm that they believe has been inflicted on them by the other.

But that describes only one side in the conflict. The other side is represented by these people:

quote:
The families of murdered Israeli teen Naftali Fraenkel and the murdered 16 year-old Palestinian, Mohammad Abu Khdeir, who was killed on Wednesday, have been drawing comfort from an unexpected source – each other.

The Mayor of Jerusalem, Nir Barkat, wrote on Facebook about his “emotional and special telephone conversation between two families that have lost their sons.” He went on to add that he had visited the Fraenkal family home, while he also took the opportunity to speak to Hussein Abu Khdeir, who is Mohammad’s father. He expressed his pain at the “barbaric” murder of his son, the Jewish Daily Forward reports.

Barkat suggested to Abu Khdeir that he should contact Yishai Fraenkel, who is the uncle of Naftali Fraenkel. The uncle spoke to the press recently, saying, “The life on an Arab is equally precious to that of a Jew. Blood is blood and murder is murder, whether that murder is Jewish or Arab.” The two took the advice of the mayor, and consoled one another by telephone.

link

Those who benefit from killing are in the ascendancy today. In fact, once the killing starts, it sways the hearts and minds of much of the population of both Israelis and Palestinians. If you ask me what side I favor and what side I oppose, it is neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians. It is those who prefer peace to killing.

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Seneca
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The idea that Hamas and the Israeli government are somehow equally to blame or counterparts to each other is insane.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that kills its own people and ruthlessly wants to make Jews and Israel disappear from the earth.

The Israeli government is a democratically-elected government that does not attack its neighbors unprovoked.

Watching the disgusting liberal media bias that is blasting Israel's actions, as well as watching Obama's ME envoys like Phil Gordon who was slamming Israel while rockets were... slamming into Israel!

Funny that the chicken-**** Gordon didn't have the guts to travel a few extra miles and give his speech to Hamas. I wonder why?

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philnotfil
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How many Israelis have been killed by Palestinians in the past year?

How many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis in the past year?

I'm done with both of them. I no longer believe that either side truly wants peace.

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Greg Davidson
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philnotfil,

Neither side is monolithic, and that's part of my problem. There are elements on either side who believe that they benefit from conflict.

Seneca, Hamas is a terrorist organization. But when some Palestinians commit an evil action, like murdering three children, it is not justice to kill a bunch of other Palestinians, particularly not innocent civilians. The asymmetric warfare tactic of having the actual terrorists hide among a civilian population makes the situation ugly, problematic, and morally complex (if the "innocent" civilians were willingly supporting/hiding the terrorists, then they would not qualify as "innocent", but how can we know their level of volition?).

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NobleHunter
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The thing is that Hamas' rockets aren't killing people (at least, not very often). The press mentions is that Hamas is firing rockets and there were no fatalities, presumably from a lack of capability. In response, the Israelis kill a bunch of Palestinians. I understand they're trying hard not to, but it still seems disproportionate.

ETA: On the other hand, it's not like Israel can just let Hamas shoot rockets. So I don't like their current response, but I don't know what the alternative is.

[ July 14, 2014, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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Seneca
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If the Arabs don't want this continued cycle of violence they'd expel Hamas. We invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban wouldn't turn over Al Qaeda to us. Hamas has killed more Israelis than Al Qaeda has killed Americans.

If I was an Arab living in the west bank or Gaza Strip I would leave because raising a family in a war zone infested with terrorists is insane.

The Arabs there have many options. Two of them include ousting Hamas from power or leaving. Don't forget the people there democratically - elected a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION into office! That makes the population complicit with Hamas' actions. If Abbas was a true "partner of peace" then he would throw out Hamas and Hey bill ah elements and any other terror group. But he doesn't. Why?

If the USA elected the KKK to the presidency I would probably leave the country.

[ July 14, 2014, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
If I was an Arab living in the west bank or Gaza Strip I would leave because raising a family in a war zone infested with terrorists is insane.
Do you feel the same about Israelis living in the West Bank?
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NobleHunter
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Where can the Palestinians go? I got the impression that the Arab world had adopted a "one is too many" policy.
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Seneca
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I think it's a little crazy that Israeli parents would want to raise their kids in the same warzone yes. Israel needs to completely finish off all the terrorists. Does that mean slaughter every Arab living in the west bank or gaza? No. But Israel can't keep bleeding like this and it's unreasonable to expect them to. They need to get rid of Hamas and all the other terror groups. They should issue a warning to Arab civilians that they plan in wiping out Hamas and people who decide to stick around during that are putting their families' lives at risk.

I will say this, the Israelis are pretty good about minimizing civilian casualties. Consider how hard Hamas works to embed civilians near their assets and yet we don't see thousands of civilians dying at every single Israeli strike. They even phone people ahead of time to warn them to leave houses and apartments to help minimize the collateral damage knowing that it might tip off the terrorists too.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
They need to get rid of Hamas and all the other terror groups. They should issue a warning to Arab civilians that they plan in wiping out Hamas and people who decide to stick around during that are putting their families' lives at risk.
Which is the attitude that created Hamas in the first place. I suppose that they'll have to do the same to the groups that form themselves in turn to fight back against the collateral damage that going after Hamas causes and so on down the line until you eventually get to the point that there is no one left anyway.
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Pete at Home
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I am unaware of any nation in history that has responded to the murder of.its own citizens by a weaker neighboring country, with more reatraint and humanity than israel.

Hamas is a bunch of savage misogynistic cannibals. Israel at worst behaves sociopathically in some instances, but is more reatrained when it comes to collateral damage than any other nation in history.

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Seneca
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Well said Pete. I can't imagine the US acting with the restraint Israel has shown.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Where can the Palestinians go? I got the impression that the Arab world had adopted a "one is too many" policy.

I'm sure the UN will shell out to move them anywhere they want. Of course if they don't want to move they could always stop electing terrorists to political office and throw Hamas out of their areas and turn them over to the Israelis.
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Mynnion
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Greg seems to have a pretty good handle on the situation. It is easy to blame one side or the other for the mess. Hamas has a significant presence that is unlikely to go anywhere because the PA has been unable to provide any significant movement towards peace and justice in the West Bank.

Seneca-Why should the Palestinians leave land that has been in the family for generations? I am actually not sure why they choose to stay with the oppressive occupation that denies them basic rights in their own country. They are prevented from moving freely, subject to unwarranted searches, frequent harassment by Settlers and the IDF. The water is controlled by Israel and frequently cut off for extended periods.

None of this justifies Hamas's actions but it does promote the hatred that allows such organizations to exist. It is clear that those in charge on both sides are more interested in political leverage than in the safety of their citizens. I wish that the Palestinian people would rise up against Hamas but as long as they are viewed as the lesser of two evils I find it unlikely.

On a side note-The only fatalities on the Israeli side has been a small herd of cows unless a rocket hit something in the last few hours. The current death toll as of this morning was 167 Palestinians.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
If I was an Arab living in the west bank or Gaza Strip I would leave because raising a family in a war zone infested with terrorists is insane.
Do you feel the same about Israelis living in the West Bank?
To a lesser extent, as gaza is far.more.of a war zone than the weat bank
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Pete at Home
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Mynnion, israel is not.the government elected to.represent the gazans. Israel's job is to protect the lives of its own citizens.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Mynnion:
Greg seems to have a pretty good handle on the situation. It is easy to blame one side or the other for the mess. Hamas has a significant presence that is unlikely to go anywhere because the PA has been unable to provide any significant movement towards peace and justice in the West Bank.

Seneca-Why should the Palestinians leave land that has been in the family for generations? I am actually not sure why they choose to stay with the oppressive occupation that denies them basic rights in their own country. They are prevented from moving freely, subject to unwarranted searches, frequent harassment by Settlers and the IDF. The water is controlled by Israel and frequently cut off for extended periods.

None of this justifies Hamas's actions but it does promote the hatred that allows such organizations to exist. It is clear that those in charge on both sides are more interested in political leverage than in the safety of their citizens. I wish that the Palestinian people would rise up against Hamas but as long as they are viewed as the lesser of two evils I find it unlikely.

On a side note-The only fatalities on the Israeli side has been a small herd of cows unless a rocket hit something in the last few hours. The current death toll as of this morning was 167 Palestinians.

Um, Hamas isn't going anywhere because the Arab population there (sorry I don't buy into the myth of Palestine, I am too educated about which nations really ran that chunk of land prior to the Jews moving in, also, the Arabs wouldn't have left so easily at the call of neighboring Arab states in the first war if they had any sense of national identity as Palestinians), voted them into power!

The Arab population has given Hamas their stamp of approval via the ballot box. In a logical world this should resolve any doubt Israel has and recognize everyone who chooses to stay there as an enemy of Israel or at least supporting those enemies.
If a US terrorist group who was attacking Canada or Mexico got elected into power and controlled our government, I would fully expect Canada or Mexico to launch full scale war operations against us as an entire nation. The Arabs living next to Israel have sealed their fate by electing Hamas to be their government. If they don't want Israel to respond to Hamas's mission to wipe out all Jews and wipe out Israel then I recommended those specific Arabs get the hell out of Dodge while the getting is good.

If I lived next to a powerful country and my government declared war on that powerful nation, I would read the tactical writing on the wall and scram before I got obliterated. Apparently people in Gaza have a hard time understanding this simple logic.

[ July 14, 2014, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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Pete at Home
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Non insane Gazans have no where to go, Seneca. Aram countries dont want them. Do you want the US to take them?
I think Israel has a right to defend its people.but it is not fair to assume that any gazan that does not leqve is an enemy.

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NobleHunter
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Regarding the UN, do you think the General Assembly is going to support anything that helps Israel?
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Seneca
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Is it Israel's problem if Arabs who don't support Hamas have nowhere to go?

When we were fighting the Nazis did we hamper our war effort with concerns over non - nazi supporting Germans? Not really.

When your government that the majority of your people elected launches a war, you are bound to those consequences old you don't get the heck out. The Arabs in Gaza have two choices if their elected government keeps launches rockets into Israel:
-risk death from Israel response
-get out by any means they can find

Of course there's a 3rd option which is overthrow Hamas but I doubt they'll do it.

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NobleHunter
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When we were fighting Nazis did we commit atrocities as a matter of course?

The behaviors of the Western Allies during WW2 isn't exactly a standard to aspire to.

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Seneca
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What do you think Israel should do given Hamas is the elected government of the Arabs there?
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NobleHunter
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I would prefer they avoid killing civilians. Other than that, I've no clue.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
What do you think Israel should do given Hamas is the elected government of the Arabs there?

I'd say it should look toward changing the kinds of behavior on its part that Hamas was created as a resistance movement against and that continue to feed it support and credibility. As long as it can sell itself as a resistance movement against a foreign oppressor, it will be able to white-wash it's terroristic activities and court political support.
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Seneca
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Who are the "civilians" and how can they identify them? Also, do these civilians deserve total protection even though they voted Hamas into power and many of them provide material and/or logistical support to Hamas?
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
What do you think Israel should do given Hamas is the elected government of the Arabs there?

I'd say it should look toward changing the kinds of behavior on its part that Hamas was created as a resistance movement against and that continue to feed it support and credibility. As long as it can sell itself as a resistance movement against a foreign oppressor, it will be able to white-wash it's terroristic activities and court political support.
And how many Israelis should be allowed to be murdered during this process?
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
What do you think Israel should do given Hamas is the elected government of the Arabs there?

I'd say it should look toward changing the kinds of behavior on its part that Hamas was created as a resistance movement against and that continue to feed it support and credibility. As long as it can sell itself as a resistance movement against a foreign oppressor, it will be able to white-wash it's terroristic activities and court political support.
Also, you do realize part of Hamas's main stated goals is the destruction of Israel, right? They use it as a PR and recruiting tool as well. How is Israel supposed to change its behavior if one of those behaviors that Hamas was created to fight against was the mere existence of Israel?

Does Israel need to commit suicide?

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Mynnion
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Pete
quote:
Mynnion, israel is not.the government elected to.represent the gazans. Israel's job is to protect the lives of its own citizens.
I am not questioning Israel's right to protect itself. I am merely explaining that what we have here is allot more complex then condemning the Palestinians and believing everything that is spoon fed through the conservative media.

Think about it this way. It is 150 years ago. You are a Native American who has been pushed off your land into reservations. Within those reservations you are treated like garbage. Anytime one of your neighbors rebels your whole neighborhood is punished. When a war leader comes and tells you he will give you back your land there would be a strong desire to believe even if it meant greater difficulty in the short term because you already know the alternative.

I have a number of Jewish friend as well as Palestinian ones. All are hurting and neither side is innocent. Unfortunately the powers that be care far more about their personal agendas than they do about the innocents.

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Mynnion
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Seneca
quote:
Um, Hamas isn't going anywhere because the Arab population there (sorry I don't buy into the myth of Palestine, I am too educated about which nations really ran that chunk of land prior to the Jews moving in, also, the Arabs wouldn't have left so easily at the call of neighboring Arab states in the first war if they had any sense of national identity as Palestinians), voted them into power!

The Arab population has given Hamas their stamp of approval via the ballot box. In a logical world this should resolve any doubt Israel has and recognize everyone who chooses to stay there as an enemy of Israel or at least supporting those enemies.
If a US terrorist group who was attacking Canada or Mexico got elected into power and controlled our government, I would fully expect Canada or Mexico to launch full scale war operations against us as an entire nation. The Arabs living next to Israel have sealed their fate by electing Hamas to be their government. If they don't want Israel to respond to Hamas's mission to wipe out all Jews and wipe out Israel then I recommended those specific Arabs get the hell out of Dodge while the getting is good.

If I lived next to a powerful country and my government declared war on that powerful nation, I would read the tactical writing on the wall and scram before I got obliterated. Apparently people in Gaza have a hard time understanding this simple logic.

I'm not going to respond to all of this because it is largely bunk. I will however respond to your "Myth of Palestine" comment. First I attaching a link to wiki that contains approximate demographic data. There has clearly been a strong Arab presence for a long time. The term for the region "Palestine" is obscure coming into common usage during either the late Ottoman occupation or early English occupation. The name itself really has little meaning other than the fact that it is the name that the Arab population living there choose to refer to it. The fact that the name is not thousands of years old does not change the fact that a large group of Arabs have long term roots in the area.

Demographics of Palestine

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NobleHunter
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quote:
Who are the "civilians" and how can they identify them? Also, do these civilians deserve total protection even though they voted Hamas into power and many of them provide material and/or logistical support to Hamas?
Generally, civilians are people who aren't shooting at you.

Ideally, yes. 0 dead civilians is something a civilized military should work towards (even if it's unachievable). War is hell, but that doesn't mean it should be barbaric. And there are significant strategic goals that are harmed by dead civilians. There's a reason anti-Israeli and anti-American media play up dead Arabs and Afghans.

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philnotfil
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How many Israelis have been killed by Palestinians in the past year?

How many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis in the past year?

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Seneca
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And which terrorist faction runs the Israeli government?

Oh there isn't one?

What happens to Israelis that harm or kill Arab citizens and residents of Israel? They get arrested and justice in Israeli courts. Does Hamas or even Abbas provide the same on their side?

When you get done laughing at the absurd comparison, realize once and for all that there IS NO COMPARISON. Hamas is a terrorist organization that slaughters its own people and the Israeli government is a democracy that is bound by the rule of law and Israel is a civilized society.

Acting like the two are brawling children that are both equally at fault is the height of absurdity.

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Hannibal
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Pete and Seneca, I have to say I really appreciate the support.

Seeing your replies here make me realize that there are informed people outside of Israel who are not looking at this as a "soccer match" counting dead on both sides.

Just a word on the technicality of avoiding hitting innocent civilians.
Israel is following any "rule of war" possible, giving ahead notifications to civilians.
Pretty much every target is "white listed" by legal counsels. (by the way, that is why we did not simply cut of the power to Gaza, legal counsels forbade that).
There has been many instances where pilots diverted missiles at the last second because they identified children and civilians near the target.

With all these efforts, it is obviously impossible to avoid collateral damage.

That said, as it was mentioned here
1. The Palestinian population voted for Hamas
2. Hamas and the Palestinians can't play like a real state when its useful for them, and then revert back to a terrorist organization when its useful for them.
They are members of the UN now, they are filing petitions in courts etc but when attacking israel they hide behind civilians.

Hiding your assets in hospitals, mosques, schools and civilian areas in general is a war crime. pure and simple.

By the way... launching rockets indiscriminantly at Israeli cities is another war crime.

No other army is shackled and impeded as our army when it comes to dealing with Hamas (and Hezballah at that time) no other country faces the same standards and pressure from foreign countries with the usage of its forces.

And that is sad

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
How is Israel supposed to change its behavior if one of those behaviors that Hamas was created to fight against was the mere existence of Israel?
It needs to behave in away that doesn't give Hamas room to convince the Palestinian people that that's a reasonable goal. The point isn't to play to Hamas- the point is to play to the people such that they can reject Hamas for a better option. As long as Hamas can carry the banner of the noble resistance against the oppressive invader, Israel is fighting a fight that can only be ended in extinction on one side or the other. On the other hand, if it begins to play the role of best friend and supporter of the Palestinian people, leaving Hamas only its willingness to kill people, then Hamas will very quickly lose its popular support and become the common foe to be flushed out.
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Mynnion
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Hannibal- I don't believe any of us are suggesting that Hamas's actions here are excusable. I will however suggest that Israel is not an innocent party either. Call it what you want to but Israel basically keeps much of the West bank in a state of siege. Land is being confiscated on a regular basis for "security" purposes or to expand existing settlements. Hamas is a symptom of the a more subtle war that Israel has been waging on the Palestinians for years.
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PSRT
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quote:
How many Israelis have been killed by Palestinians in the past year?

How many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis in the past year?

Better questions: How many Israeli civilians have Palestinians tried to kill in the last year.

How many Palestinian civilians have Israelis tried to kill in the last year?

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philnotfil
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Even more important is the interpretation of the answers. If n>0, that group of people is in the wrong.

No one's hands are clean over there.

I'm choosing to support neither side. In fact, I am choosing to condemn both sides.

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PSRT
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There is certainly a lot of wrong doing on both sides. But looking only at casualties hides a lot of the wrong doing, and prevents us from seeing the full picture, and what needs to change in order to improve the situation.
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