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Author Topic: ZZZzzzZZZzzz.... There they go again in the Middle East .....
TomDavidson
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I still think America should just give Montana to the Palestinians -- or the Jews -- and solve the whole problem. We could fly every single one of them to the Midwest for what we give Israel. But of course neither group really wants to live; they want to live there.
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Seneca
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Why not give Chicago to Hamas? Same environment, right?
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TomDavidson
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Nope. Functionally no one lives in Montana. It's useless land that our country is basically holding empty, but still considerably better land than you'll find in Israel.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
……… doesn't mean we should blindly support Israel. We can still critize their methods even though they face an existential threat. Journey before destination. [/qb]
I agree, and i do. I spoke very strongly againat some of the stupid and sadistic limitations that have more recently removed, such as banning cumin spice from Gaza.

But our criticism should.be tempered whenisrael.demonstrated.more.restraint.with collateral damage.than any of the critics' countries.

[ July 16, 2014, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Seneca
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Listening to democrat Rep. Moran (Moron) on MS-LSD is sickening. He is condemning Israel's right to defend herself by calling these rockets "feckless" and going on about how since Israelis aren't being killed by them that Israel has no right to respond the way they are. He also keeps painting some kind of moral equivalency between Hamas and the state of Israel and he refuses to address that Hamas is actively locating their rocket ammo and launch areas among civilians and is encouraging Arabs not to leave their homes even when Israel warns them to.

At this point given the year and pervasiveness of technology and how it was deployed to huge effect in neighboring Egypt this last year, there is no way that the Arab population of Gaza does NOT know what Hamas is doing and how Hamas is setting up their own people to die.

If the population of Gaza is ok with their elected leaders attacking Israel and hoping that Israel responds by killing them for PR purposes to get international sympathy, then that is insane and horrifying. At that point they are complicit in Hamas' s war.

[ July 16, 2014, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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Pete at Home
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My position on israel's counterattacks with collateral damage is like my position on the 2nd iraq invasion: fully justified by international law, but bad strategy.

Clearly hamas is sending these missiles out with intent to get israel to retaliate and kill gazan civillians.

As i see it, those advocating that israel kust ignore the attacks are asking for something that they know or reasonably should know cannot be done in any society with a representative government. So if any peacenics here are talking in good faith, i invite you to suggest a legal and politically viable response that israel could make to one pf these attacks, that would hurt hamas with less innocent collateral damage.

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TomDavidson
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The inclusion of the phrase "politically viable" makes that tricky, as the only thing that's politically viable in Israel right now is a combination of hand-wringing and murder.
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Hannibal
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" hand-wringing and murder."

Wow... yes because 3 people committed murder all that the 8 Million Israelis can do is hand-wringing and murder.

Very mature Tom


Pretty much like all you can expect from Americans is to go on killing sprees in elementary schools

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TomDavidson
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I didn't say that it was all individual Israelis could do. I said that handwringing or murder are the only politically-viable options in Israel right now.
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Seneca
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Since when is responding to an elected government that has vowed to destroy you considered murder?

I guess some anti-Israeli extremists just expect Israel to roll over and die.

Who here would want rockets randomly lobbed at their house or their children's school? How many of you would sit still for that?

[ July 17, 2014, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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DJQuag
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Seneca

How long ago was Hamas elected? When is the next Palestinian election planned for?

How big do those numbers have to get before the Palestinian s stop deserving to die for the government they elected however many years ago?

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Seneca
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It's not just the fact they elected them. Gaza is a tiny area. For the Arabs there to tolerate Hamas and how it burns their lives like a candle means they are largely complicit since it is highly unlikely in 2014 that any of them don't know what's going on.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Since when is responding to an elected government that has vowed to destroy you considered murder?

I guess some anti-Israeli extremists just expect Israel to roll over and die.

Who here would want rockets randomly lobbed at their house or their children's school? How many of you would sit still for that?

I find it interesting that Americans rarely apply this to themselves. If we were honest about what we've done in the middle east over the last sixty years, we wouldn't be surprised by terrorist attacks against us.
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NobleHunter
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Collective guilt for thee but not for me.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I didn't say that it was all individual Israelis could do. I said that handwringing or murder are the only politically-viable options in Israel right now.

Weasely.

You ignore my point about representative.governments, and then misqpply the word "murder" to encompass self.defense

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
It's not just the fact they elected them. Gaza is a tiny area. For the Arabs there to tolerate Hamas and how it burns their lives like a candle means they are largely complicit since it is highly unlikely in 2014 that any of them don't know what's going on.

What other viable occupation resistance movement is currently available to them such that they can choose one that is more humane in its tactics?
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
It's not just the fact they elected them. Gaza is a tiny area. For the Arabs there to tolerate Hamas and how it burns their lives like a candle means they are largely complicit since it is highly unlikely in 2014 that any of them don't know what's going on.

Really? Those are the only options you can imagine?
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Pete at Home
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In a representative democracy, a leader cannot just ignore intentional systematic and highly public attempts by a neigjboring cpuntry to murder represented citizens.

If you actually give a floundering **** about the lives of Gazans, Tom, pleasr provide an alternative response for Israel.

To complain about the status quo without offering a reasonably performable alternative is nothing more or less than sanctimonious bitching.

[ July 17, 2014, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
It's not just the fact they elected them. Gaza is a tiny area. For the Arabs there to tolerate Hamas and how it burns their lives like a candle means they are largely complicit since it is highly unlikely in 2014 that any of them don't know what's going on.

What other viable occupation resistance movement is currently available to them such that they can choose one that is more humane in its tactics?
March unarmed on checkpoints, with cameras rolling, a la salt march/selma bridge.
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NobleHunter
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Pete has a point. The 20th century provides a pretty guidebook for shaming a Western power into acquiesence (or at least concessions). That Hamas isn't using those tactics implies independence and freedom for Palestinians isn't their chief goal.

[ July 17, 2014, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
March unarmed on checkpoints, with cameras rolling, a la salt march/selma bridge.

Which currently viable movement is offering that as a tactic?

Sure, it's something that can be done, but it takes a large amount of existing inertia to actually successfully organize and execute such an effort. I didn't ask what other tactics could be used, I asked what other group currently exists that can credibly offer such tactics as an alternative?

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Seneca
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Wow. People have the guts to say these Arabs ate ignorant of how to overthrow regimes RIGHT AFTER THE ARAB SPRING?

Unbelievable.

At this point the Arabs living in Gaza are complicit with all actions taken by their elected terrorist government, Hamas. If there are Arabs there who don't support Hamas then they lost the election and need to flee Gaza because Hamas has declared war on Israel.

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Lloyd Perna
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Hamas gets caught hiding missiles in a UN run school
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NobleHunter
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So all Gazans are legitimate targets?
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seagull
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@Mynnion
quote:
I wish that the Palestinian people would rise up against Hamas but as long as they are viewed as the lesser of two evils I find it unlikely.
I strongly disagree with your naive underlying assumption that "the Palestinian people" view Hamas as the "lesser of two evils". Several years ago, a Palestinian from Gaza who managed to bypass the "one is too many policy" and emigrate to the US told me that his uncles in Gaza wish Israel had never left but that while he is free to say it (in the US) they do not dare to. The consequences for voicing such opinions in Hamas controlled areas are too terrible for civilized people to contemplate.

My point is that in the Middle East, trying to "rise up against" the more evil faction is not a smart move. Anyone who wants to survive goes along with the cruelest faction because the more evil it is - the more you would get hurt by crossing them.

@Seneca
I believe that most civilians in Gaza would willingly emigrate to anywhere that would take them even before this latest conflagration started. The economic conditions alone are enough for people to want to leave. As a matter of fact, if they had somewhere to go, some of the militants that are currently firing rockets at us here in Israel would probably opt for a better life and leave as well.


The problem is that nobody will take them in. Would you be willing to accept more than a million refugees as neighbors knowning that 5% of them were former terrorists? Why would any sane country agree to do it?

@NobleHunter
quote:
I would prefer they avoid killing civilians.
So would the Israeli soldiers that are firing the weapons that kill civilians.
Killing civilians in Gaza is NOT an accident, it is a direct result of the stated Hamas policy to maximize the death toll of it's human shields. You can see this very clearly from two facts:
1. When Israeli soldiers identify civilians near a legitimate military target they abort their mission.
2. Hamas has told it's population to ignore the Israeli warning leaflets and warning shots and stay at the targets because as far as they are concerned there are not enough civilian casualities and the "patriotic thing to do" is to die as a martyr.


@philnotfil
quote:

How many Israelis have been killed by Palestinians in the past year?
How many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis in the past year?

These questions are misleading, have you considered some other more relevant questions like:

Q: How many Arab Israelis have been attacked by Hamas?
A: At least two of the recently injured Israeli children are Arabs.

Q: How many Palestinians were killed by Hamas since it took power?

Try to look up how they ruthlessly and publicly killed PLO representatives when they took over Gaza by force. Also look up how many "Honor killings" and other killings of Women and homosexuals happened since they took power. Please note that these are not considered "murders" because they are sanctioned by the ruling Hamas government.

Q: How many Arabs have been killed in the West Bank under the "benign" PLO regime shortly after after being accused of the crime of selling their land to a Jew? (that crime carries a death sentence).

Do not be mislead by the small numbers. Palestinians are not stupid. It only takes a few deaths to make a point when the killing organization is known to be ruthless and boasts about it. Paradoxically and regretfully, since Israel does not have a reputation for being ruthless, it will have to kill hundreds of civilian before the fear of Israeli power exceeds their fear of Hamas brutality.

Q: How many Israelis died as a direct result of the Hamas attacks?
A: In most missile attacks on Israel, more Israelis die from Heart attacks and as a result of falling while rushing to a shelter than from actual missile explosions.

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Seneca
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If the US elected the KKK to power and the new KKK congress/President launched a war with Mexico then all the US citizens who opposed the KKK and lost at the ballot box would need to get out of the country when the world responds by kicking the new US government's butt.

A representative government means the citizens are responsible for their elected officials.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
If the US elected the KKK to power and the new KKK congress/President launched a war with Mexico then all the US citizens who opposed the KKK and lost at the ballot box would need to get out of the country when the world responds by kicking the new US government's butt.

That example fails because to be parallel, the KKK would have had to have been created in the first place as a reaction to a Mexican military occupation of the United States.
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NobleHunter
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Seneca, does that mean all American citizens were legitimate targets of the people resisting the occupation of Iraq?
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seagull
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quote:
So all Gazans are legitimate targets?
Nobody on the Israeli side claims that.

What I would say however, is that these days being physically close to a missile launcher, weapons dump or militant is dangerous. People who want to live should avoid these kinds of risks.

I do not believe that the innocent population in Gaza has the power or brutality necessary to overthrow Hamas or the Islamic Jihad. They can not prevent Hamas from forcibly entering their homes and firing rockets from them which forces the IDF to fire on these homes.

But they do have the choice to keep their distance from such targets if they want to live.

If children in Israel can be expected to run to shelters when they hear a siren, it is only reasonable to expect children in Gaza to run away from anything that has a Hamas symbol on it.

I have to wonder how many of those who died were actually following the Hamas instructions and willingly served as Human shields.

I also wonder how many of the casualties being reported were shot in the back by Hamas while trying to flee from the area before the bombs hit.

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seagull
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quote:
does that mean all American citizens were legitimate targets of the people resisting the occupation of Iraq?
All American citizens were considered to be legitimate targets by Al-Qaeda even before the US military went to Iraq. What is your point?
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NobleHunter
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Both questions were directed at Seneca. Israel's characterization seems to be more along the lines of 'acceptable collateral damage.' Maybe 'regrettable collateral damage,' depending on who you ask.

My point is that he's using the logic of terrorists.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
If the US elected the KKK to power and the new KKK congress/President launched a war with Mexico then all the US citizens who opposed the KKK and lost at the ballot box would need to get out of the country when the world responds by kicking the new US government's butt.

That example fails because to be parallel, the KKK would have had to have been created in the first place as a reaction to a Mexican military occupation of the United States.
In actual history, the kkk formed in resistance.to the Northern occupation.

Doesnt change the fact that the kkk were.murderous terroristic sheetheads more.evil than their occupiers.

Palestiniana elected Nazis and conducted.pogroms before the Balfour declaration. Jews were.murdered on and.driven from landa they had legitimately purchased.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Both questions were directed at Seneca. Israel's characterization seems to be more along the lines of 'acceptable collateral damage.' Maybe 'regrettable collateral damage,' depending on who you ask.

My point is that he's using the logic of terrorists.

Certainly not, nh.

The logic.of.terrorists is to TARGET civillians, not.to.treat them as collateral damage.

If Timothy Mcaveigh spoke.the truth re his intended target, then he was a murderer, traitor, and war criminal aa terrorist.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
March unarmed on checkpoints, with cameras rolling, a la salt march/selma bridge.

Which currently viable movement is offering that as a tactic?

Sure, it's something that can be done, but it takes a large amount of existing inertia to actually successfully organize and execute such an effort. I didn't ask what other tactics could be used, I asked what other group currently exists that can credibly offer such tactics as an alternative?

You've been owned so you are changing your original queation.

The fact that Palestinians arent using passive resistance.is not an excuse for.not trying it.

Inertia my ass. Ghandhi didnt.have inertia when he.started.folks burning pass books in South Africa.

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NobleHunter
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Seneca calling Gazans 'complicit' in Hamas' activities suggests that Israel would be justified in targeting Gazan civilians.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Seneca calling Gazans 'complicit' in Hamas' activities suggests that Israel would be justified in targeting Gazan civilians.

Ok, i see where you are coming from


There are levels.of complicity ans reponsibility. Many Jews and.Germans felt.that the German people had enough collective responsibility for the holocaust to.justify financial obligations, and a moral responsibility to.expose the truth. But.only a few.psychos like Begin thought that German civillians should.become military targets.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
You've been owned so you are changing your original queation.



My original question:
quote:
What other viable occupation resistance movement is currently available to them such that they can choose one that is more humane in its tactics?
I didn't ask what else they could do, I asked what other viable organization was available.

quote:
The fact that Palestinians arent using passive resistance.is not an excuse for.not trying it.
You're ruling out the possibility that none are? How would we even know with Hamas sucking up all the attention, and perhaps even actively suppressing their domestic competition to maintain their monopoly position.

quote:
Ghandhi didnt.have inertia when he.started.folks burning pass books in South Africa.
All by himself? Or did he manage to create a sustainable group of people large enough to attract notice and make an ongoing impact?
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Seneca
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I am not advocating the wholesale slaughter of all Arabs inside Gaza, but at this point, given Israel's remarkable restraint and how Hamas is setting its own people up as human shields for their rockets, these Arabs do not have the justification to cry foul if they become collateral damage knowing everything that they know.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
You've been owned so you are changing your original queation.



My original question:
quote:
What other viable occupation resistance movement is currently available to them such that they can choose one that is more humane in its tactics?
I didn't ask what else they could do, I asked what other viable organization was available.

quote:
The fact that Palestinians arent using passive resistance.is not an excuse for.not trying it.
You're ruling out the possibility that none are? How would we even know with Hamas sucking up all the attention, and perhaps even actively suppressing their domestic competition to maintain their monopoly position.

quote:
Ghandhi didnt.have inertia when he.started.folks burning pass books in South Africa.
All by himself? Or did he manage to create a sustainable group of people large enough to attract notice and make an ongoing impact?

We saw how social media played a key role in Egypt, Libya and other places. If there are peace - minded Arabs in Gaza they would have made themselves known and organized. So either there are none, or Hamas is killing anyone who tries to organize, or there are very few and they are keeping their heads down because they aren't brave enough to oppose Hamas. My suggestion to those ones is get out anyway you can. Maybe sneak across the Egyptian border or storm it en masse.
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Jack Squat
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Pete is wrong: it's being done in the West Bank.

quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
You've been owned so you are changing your original queation.



My original question:
quote:
What other viable occupation resistance movement is currently available to them such that they can choose one that is more humane in its tactics?
I didn't ask what else they could do, I asked what other viable organization was available.

http://www.questia.com/newspaper/1P2-32544228/borrowing-from-gandhi-palestinian-passive-resistance

quote:
As has become ritual in this Palestinian village for the last five years, every Friday several hundred demonstrators march toward Israel's security fence - and toward a confrontation with soldiers stationed on the other side.

Wearing a T-shirt with a picture of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., this past Friday Ashraf Abu Rahmeh joined demonstrators chanting against the security barrier - declared illegal by the International Court of Justice. Despite the fact that his brother, Bassem, was killed by the Israeli army in a similar demonstration last year, Mr. Rahmeh says he's not seeking revenge.

"God will take revenge,'' Rahmeh says. "I support non-violence because the image of Palestinians is that we are peace loving."

It's being done in the West Bank, and guess what? The West Bank has more rights.

Hamas sounds a lot like the Spanish word "Jamas" which means never. The Gaza strip will never have peace or freedom under Hamas.

[ July 17, 2014, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Jack Squat ]

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