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Author Topic: Is there such a thing as a "rape culture" in America?
Jack Squat
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quote:
Originally posted by RacerX:
Thanks, a lot of good info and some good debate.

Somebody mentioned the old accepted logic that "rape is about power not sex". How does this square with drunk frat-'boys', and I emphasize "boys" as I loathe them and they are not by any means men, forcing girls to have sex with them?

I openly state it is "rape", but how is it not about sex? Especially in cases in which the girl goes far enough to get the young idiot aroused and then says "No". (Fully agree that she should have the right to say no at anytime and be heard and that he stop. Not my point.) The point is at this point isn't his raping her about the need to finish the sex act."

It would be more accurate to say that rape is more about power than consensual sex is about power. Some women use clothing and sexuality to assert power and to take attention from other women, which is why women are often the most vigorous enforcers of modesty codes. I dated a woman once until I found out she literally kept serial-killer style trophies of the guys whose hearts she'd broken. And yet she never raped anyone. Frat boys often similarly keep trophies of women whose beds they've used deception to get into. That's loathsome and inhuman but not rape per se.
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Jack Squat
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quote:
Originally posted by RacerX:
I thought LDS women could only wear pants to church on certain days or en mass as protest? Think that is what a friend and old OA member says.

Pyr would tell you that we cannot look to LDS church statements to say what the LDS church forbids and doesn't forbid. If Marni feels like she's forbidden to wear pants to church, then she can "protest" by wearing pants to church, and if conservatives don't get upset at the sight of Marni in pants, they are pooh poohing her experience.
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RacerX
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Who's Marni? [Wink]
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RacerX
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quote:
quote:
as opposed to on men (here's what you can do to avoid becoming a rapist).
What sort of patronizing ass goes and throws that crap at boys, as if all males needed help not becoming rapists.

If I had sons I definitely teach them how "not to get falsely accused of rape". I'd hope I'd already taught them to be good enough men not to force a woman to do anything against her will. [Frown]
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Pyrtolin
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Re: Jack

http://www.businessinsider.com/female-soldier-brilliantly-calls-out-military-for-blaming-victims-of-sexual-assault-2013-8

That's 2013, not the 80s or 90s.

When you have a segment of the population that makes up the vast majority of perpetrators of a crime, then targeting education and prevention materials at them is, in no way patronizing, even if you can say something completely irrelevant to the point like "Not all men"

An accusation, given a 98% accuracy rate is reasonable suspicion in and of itself. It's amusing that you go pretty quickly from saying that you're not dismissive of anyone's experiences to suddenly being so extremely dismissive such as to say that a statement of personal experience can be dismissed out of hand if you don't think it's true.

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Jack Squat
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And you think that Military leadership reflects the general American culture?

That's an institution covering its own ass. Same as any major powerful organization tries to hide its scandals and blemishes.

Mormon women wearing miniskirts in church isn't going to do squat for reducing military rape, Pyr. Just give up.

" suddenly being so extremely dismissive such as to say that a statement of personal experience can be dismissed out of hand if you don't think it's true."

What statement of personal experience are you pretending that I dismissed? I think that what the woman said in your article is right on. That's a very accurate indictment of how the military handles rape. I simply object to your raping and commandeering her story to make it seem like she was talking about the general American culture. Not so fast, cowboy. Pull your pants back up.

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NobleHunter
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Jack, have you read the comments on any news article about rape?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by RacerX:
Somebody mentioned the old accepted logic that "rape is about power not sex". How does this square with drunk frat-'boys', and I emphasize "boys" as I loathe them and they are not by any means men, forcing girls to have sex with them?

Because they are abusing the power they have in that situation to take what they want without regard to consent. Without that critical factor, nothing would have happened in the first place.
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scifibum
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I don't have a problem with dress codes for professional environments, including courtrooms.

However, I think "professional dress" is much trickier to define for women than for men. Most people would understand that to include skirts and blouses that might be open at the neck. How such things fit and what they reveal varies for reasons including the shape of the person wearing them.

Because of that, I think in a lot of cases women should get a pass if they show some cleavage or their legs but otherwise seem to be trying to maintain a professional appearance (speaking here of situations where there is a conservative dress code for a professional or formal environment).

Women could adopt the nearly universal "professional" attire that men have available, but even that carries the risk of being perceived as cross-dressing - which could provoke speculation and be its own distraction.*

On the other hand, I think finding a bit of cleavage highly distracting often stems from cultural factors that overlap with or sustain rape culture. And even short of "she deserved to be raped", I think more subtle (kind of) victim-blaming is perpetuated through the justifications for modesty requirements for women. I actually think that vigilance for and loud protest against those currents of thought is justified and beneficial.

There's some gray area between professional/conservative/formal dress codes and modesty policing tied to sexist and harmful messages about sexual responsibility - particularly if you think about why certain things are considered distracting. That makes attempting to enforce the former pretty tricky.

Is there a particular dress code problem we're trying to solve here? Jack are you referring to outrage over a particular case of dress code enforcement? It might be interesting to discuss the specifics of a case and see how they relate to "rape culture".

*For court specifically, it would probably not be a bad idea for there to be a very simple, unisex uniform for all participants - like the robes and wigs of English courts. But I don't see that happening.

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Jack Squat
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Jack, have you read the comments on any news article about rape?

Internet geeks getting reactions from the safety of anonymity.

Back in the 1980s and very early 1990s, people used to actually say that crap out loud in public on college campuses.

If anyone actually gave a **** about fighting rape culture, rather than exploiting it to pursue unrelated antireligious agenda, they'd fight the separate rape cultures, i.e. the military RC, the lower class white RC, the fundamentalist Muslim RC, as well as institutions that promote silence and whitewash (like the military institution, various church and college institutions), rather than bitching about modesty mores that are more about preventing distraction and discomfort.

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RacerX
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TomDavidson,
quote:
The whole Pick-Up Artist movement,
Those guys are disgusting losers.
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NobleHunter
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quote:
Internet geeks getting reactions from the safety of anonymity.
If only.

Islamic culture aside, do you really think those cultures exist separately? That they don't share common memes and narratives?

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RacerX
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Some feminist are fighting those cultures. Unfortunately it seems as if some of them see all men as perpetuating the "rape culture" just by existing.
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Jack Squat
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

No, I've presented the issue of equality. You keep trying to make false accusations on what was already clearly pointed out as a non-controversial red herring rather than actually addressing the issue of inequitable enforcement which commonly happens in practice.

I was in court as a defendant when the defendant next to me got kicked out of somewhere for wearing knee length shorts, while an attorney before the court was wearing a miniskirt that didn't even go down to mid-thigh. The male Utah judge yelled at the guy for showing "disrespect" to the court by wearing shorts, but treated the miniskirt woman with deference. The posted rule was "no shorts or short skirts."

If you think that some of my examples are noncontroversial, then please identify them and say they are noncontroversial rather than just using strained pretexts to dodge the question.

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Jack Squat
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quote:
Originally posted by RacerX:
Some feminist are fighting those cultures. Unfortunately it seems as if some of them see all men as perpetuating the "rape culture" just by existing.

Agreed. There are reasonable feminists, and those ones tend to do the most good. But then they don't call themselves activists for blathering on social media.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
they'd fight the separate rape cultures, i.e. the military RC, the lower class white RC, the fundamentalist Muslim RC, as well as institutions that promote silence and whitewash (like the military institution, various church and college institutions), rather than bitching about modesty mores that are more about preventing distraction and discomfort
I submit that most feminists spend more time fighting the above cultures than "bitching" about modesty mores, but that you notice the latter more due to the circles in which you travel.

--------

quote:
The posted rule was "no shorts or short skirts."
In my office, we have a rule: no shorts for either sex and no skirts above the knee. On hot days, several of us men joke that we should wear kilts. But none of us actually feel oppressed.
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Jack Squat
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
quote:
Internet geeks getting reactions from the safety of anonymity.
If only.

Islamic culture aside, do you really think those cultures exist separately? That they don't share common memes and narratives?

Even Islamic cultures share common memes and narratives with us. But the connection is historical. Ancestral. Making a change to how Mormons dress isn't going to affect military rape. And I doubt it would decrease rape among the LDS, either.

pop-feminists speak of "patriarchy" or "rape culture" as a single great white conspiracy. It's a grotesque simplification. Yes, certain patriarchal cultures disempower women and vastly increase rape, particularly spousal rape. The military would more accurately be called andrarchal, since it emphasizes virtues which are stereotypically masculine, aggression, etc. Rape is a particular military problem for the same reason that drug abuse is a problem; it's something which aggressive males can do to temporarily suppress the mental damage that they've suffered through combat. Creates an illusion of power. Of course drug using and raping military folks are all the more destroyed mentally when they come back to peacetime.

But patriarchies that don't preclude matriarchy aren't the enemy. Indeed, girls who have a loving dad in the home are less likely to get raped than girls raised by single moms. It's well known that "daddy issues" are a route for females into sexual exploitation.

I don't think that internet comments are unconnected to the general culture, but they aren't an accurate reflection of it, either. In many cases they are a reaction against it. Internet anonymity makes it fun for isolated people to blurt out shocking "politically incorrect" things. It makes them feel powerful, and gives them the illusion of being interesting.

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Jack Squat
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:
The posted rule was "no shorts or short skirts."
In my office, we have a rule: no shorts for either sex and no skirts above the knee. On hot days, several of us men joke that we should wear kilts. But none of us actually feel oppressed.
I felt oppressed when I got yelled at by my bosses' boss for wearing knee length shorts to the office, when my female boss was wearing spandex shorts. The rule was written like yours, but I felt oppressed since it was being enforced differently on men versus on women. I saw women wearing shorts and thought it was OK if I did as well.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
...patriarchies that don't preclude matriarchy...
...are not patriarchies. That's like saying that oligarchies that share power with the little people aren't all that bad.
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Jack Squat
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Google search and you'll see plenty of people who say that Abraham was a patriarch and that his wife, Sarah, was a Matriarch.

Ditto Issac and Rebecca.

"That's like saying that oligarchies that share power with the little people aren't all that bad. "

No, it's not. The word "patriarch" was in use before the feminists started fisting it.

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stilesbn
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
In my office, we have a rule: no shorts for either sex and no skirts above the knee. On hot days, several of us men joke that we should wear kilts. But none of us actually feel oppressed.

I learned many years ago that just because some people in a group don't feel oppressed doesn't mean that other people in that group don't feel oppressed and aren't oppressed. Something that I would have expected you to understand as well. Especially since it is an argument most feminists use when confronted by another woman who doesn't feel oppressed.
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NobleHunter
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quote:
No, it's not. The word "patriarch" was in use before the feminists started fisting it.
Now that sounds like Pete [Razz]

If you're going to talk about feminism, equivocating with the jargon doesn't do wonders for your credibility. Patriarchy in the bible and patriarchy in feminist theory refer to different concepts.

[ July 28, 2014, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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MattP
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
phil, wearing pants to church is a big deal for mormon feminists. I think it's second only to opening the priesthood to women for hot-button issues.

Which is really weird to me, because they can. Why get upset about not being allowed to do something that you are allowed to do?
Wearing pants to church is about combating cultural expectations that conflict with actual church policy by violating those expectations, sometimes en masse, deliberately.

My wife had a good friend in high school that had few friends and some serious body image and depression issues (she committed suicide a few years ago). She just did not feel comfortable in skirts and dresses so one time when she attended church (which she didn't do often) she wore pants. The bishop asked her to go home and change into a dress. She was mortified and never returned to church.

Even today, in the wake of "wears pants to church day" being pretty well known as a Thing in LDS circles, women are still occasionally being told that their pants are inappropriate for church - sometimes by leaders, sometimes by other members of their congregations.

There's also the dynamic of people being taking umbrage with the whole idea of deliberately following the rules as a means of protest - only in Mormondom, I suppose.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack Squat:
No, it's not. The word "patriarch" was in use before the feminists started fisting it.

Which is completely irrelevant to it's use in context.

This is a great example of you pooh poohing the people that actually know what they're talking about and not actually listening to the points being made by people with some degree of real experience with the issues at hand.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
quote:
No, it's not. The word "patriarch" was in use before the feminists started fisting it.
Now that sounds like Pete [Razz]

If you're going to talk about feminism, equivocating with the jargon doesn't do wonders for your credibility. Patriarchy in the bible and patriarchy in feminist theory refer to different concepts.

I don't recall Feminists making that distinction when they talked about Patriarchy in the Bible.
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RacerX
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quote:
Patriarchy in the bible and patriarchy in feminist theory refer to different concepts.
Agreed.
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NobleHunter
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Speak of the devil...

The problem is that the patriarchy in the bible also tends to be patriarchal in the feminist sense. Or at least, it tends to be interpreted in patriarchal ways.

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Pete at Home
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Tell that to feminists who talk about the Bible. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
This is a great example of you pooh poohing the people that actually know what they're talking about and not actually listening to the points being made by people with some degree of real experience with the issues at hand.
That's a great example of you're using equivocation to make it look like you haven't changed the subject. Before you were speaking of pooh poohing people's actual world experiences. Now you've obfuscated the accusation to including questioning someone's authority. Pooh on you, Pyr.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
This is a great example of you pooh poohing the people that actually know what they're talking about and not actually listening to the points being made by people with some degree of real experience with the issues at hand.
That's a great example of you're using equivocation to make it look like you haven't changed the subject. Before you were speaking of pooh poohing people's actual world experiences. Now you've obfuscated the accusation to including questioning someone's authority. Pooh on you, Pyr.
This is a situation where the two are effectively the same. Their understanding of the matter comes directly from being subject to the social forces that are actively hurting them.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack Squat:

quote:
as opposed to on men (here's what you can do to avoid becoming a rapist).
What sort of patronizing ass goes and throws that crap at boys, as if all males needed help not becoming rapists.

Clearly, some of them do. This would be targeted at them. The ones that don't need it shouldn't be any more offended than I am at ads trying to get people to buy cars when I clearly don't need a car.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Jack Squat:

quote:
as opposed to on men (here's what you can do to avoid becoming a rapist).
What sort of patronizing ass goes and throws that crap at boys, as if all males needed help not becoming rapists.

Clearly, some of them do. .
Yes, clearly. But to speak as if ALL boys were potential rapists, helps teach boys what's expected of them. Questions like: "You're a male, Timmy. Tell me why men rape." Welcome to the feminist rape culture.
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kmbboots
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Where do you see that in the ad referenced above?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
The ones that don't need it shouldn't be any more offended than I am at ads trying to get people to buy cars when I clearly don't need a car.

Pyr, THAT is an example of pooh poohing someone's experience. People in college who talked about rape as if all males were rapists hurt me more than the woman that actually molested me when I was 7 and left my crying on the bathroom floor.

If you think that being a victim of sexual abuse treated like I was a rapist just because I'm male is as harmless as trying to sell someone a car, then you're a monster, Kate.

[ July 28, 2014, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack Squat:
I already said rape is about power, and I pointed to the prisons as an example. Whether rape is about patriarchy depends on how you defend patriarchy. I imagine you might make up a definition of patriarchy that could be plausibly blamed for male/male prison rape. But you're blowing smoke when you blame LDS boys passing the sacrament for rape.

I'm curious to hear your made-up definition of patriarchy that somehow doesn't have anything to do with power. There's certainly no dictionary or common usage that would agree with you, but feel free to try.

quote:

Show me stats showing that active LDS males are more likely to commit rape than others, and then let's talk. But if you hop on Marni's general big anti-mo feminist lie is to point to rape stats in Utah being higher than Maine (rather than comparing to other western states like California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, and Arizona) as evidence of LDS male priesthood causing rape, I will be unable to respect you in the morning.

The statistics show that Utah has a rape problem. A *gendered* rape problem. Not just the rate, but very low reporting rate, very low rates of victims receiving counseling, and victims most commonly expressing that their largest concern was their friends and family discovering that they had been raped. (source) The latter phenomenon, btw, is an excellent illustration of what is meant by rape culture; no one worries about people discovering that they were mugged or had their house broken into. In any case, similar reporting rates in other states is a rather pathetic defense, unless you think (which is possible, based on earlier arguments in this thread), that Utah doesn't actually have a rape problem. Which, if so, is another very concrete example of how rape culture continues to function.
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NobleHunter
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I think feminism is slowly coming to realize that the narratives they used regarding sexual assault reflect 'partriarchal' beliefs about the role of gender therein. I.e. the idea that all men are potential rapists reflect patriarchal constructs of masculinity and sexual desire.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
quote:
Originally posted by Jack Squat:
I already said rape is about power, and I pointed to the prisons as an example. Whether rape is about patriarchy depends on how you defend patriarchy. I imagine you might make up a definition of patriarchy that could be plausibly blamed for male/male prison rape. But you're blowing smoke when you blame LDS boys passing the sacrament for rape.

I'm curious to hear your made-up definition of patriarchy that somehow doesn't have anything to do with power.
I'm curious what anyone in this discussion said to the effect that any sort of -archy isn't about power.

Patriarchy means that fathers have power. In the Abraham story, we see a Patriarch married to a Matriarch. Abraham rules over his flocks and servants, while Sarah rules over her household and servants. Abraham actually seems to obey her in household matters.

I'm not saying that it's a model for modern marriage, but it isn't what some feminists say it was, either. Note that the rapiest thing in the story of Abraham actually comes from the Matriarchy part, where Sarah decides she wants Hagar to have Sarah's baby, orders Abraham to do her, and later to abandon Hagar. That didn't work out so well.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
In any case, similar reporting rates in other states is a rather pathetic defense, unless you think (which is possible, based on earlier arguments in this thread), that Utah doesn't actually have a rape problem.

Typical lefty weaseling.

Everywhere has a rape problem. Utah's rape problem seems to be less than the overall western regional rape problem, but slightly more than average than the national problem. Part of the problem is Utah police. I worked for the women in crisis center in Utah and advocated (not Marni's facebook bullcrap but actual advocacy with the legislature and public hearings). I was part of massive campus protests on BYU that got more lighting and the founding of a woman's resource center at BYU. I'm more personally involved in the issue in Utah than the braying jackasses that you seem to be taking for canon on this issue.

Yes, Utah has a rape problem, but the jackasses screaming against the LDS church aren't the ones actually working with victims. They are just pimping the issue, grave-dancing for political gain.

[ July 28, 2014, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
The ones that don't need it shouldn't be any more offended than I am at ads trying to get people to buy cars when I clearly don't need a car.

Pyr, THAT is an example of pooh poohing someone's experience. People in college who talked about rape as if all males were rapists hurt me more than the woman that actually molested me when I was 7 and left my crying on the bathroom floor.
The fact that you're making up things that aren't being said, then reacting to those suggests that your still aren't actually listening, but asserting your own narrative over what's being said.

The way you were treated was horrible- there's no question of that. But that is not representative of feminism at a whole, and posters that help educate men in general about the way that behaviors they are socially pressured or otherwise taught that it is their privilege to engage in lead to rape is not the same as accusing all men of being rapists by any measure.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
quote:

Show me stats showing that active LDS males are more likely to commit rape than others, and then let's talk. But if you hop on Marni's general big anti-mo feminist lie is to point to rape stats in Utah being higher than Maine (rather than comparing to other western states like California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, and Arizona) as evidence of LDS male priesthood causing rape, I will be unable to respect you in the morning.

The statistics show that Utah has a rape problem. A *gendered* rape problem. Not just the rate, but very low reporting rate, very low rates of victims receiving counseling, and victims most commonly expressing that their largest concern was their friends and family discovering that they had been raped. (source) The latter phenomenon, btw, is an excellent illustration of what is meant by rape culture; no one worries about people discovering that they were mugged or had their house broken into. In any case, similar reporting rates in other states is a rather pathetic defense, unless you think (which is possible, based on earlier arguments in this thread), that Utah doesn't actually have a rape problem. Which, if so, is another very concrete example of how rape culture continues to function.
That's an excellent source and strongly corroborates my own experience. Where you're wrong -- and there's nothing in the article to justify your assumption -- is in assuming that culture generally or the religious community is somehow at fault. Utah suffers from bad policing. It's an institutional reaction to bad handling on the part of Utah police. It's not a product of mormon boys passing the sacrament.

As for the "gendered anti-woman" part, you are sickeningly wrong. Talk to anyone on a crisis hotline in Utah and ask them what happens to male victims of sexual violence who call in and ask for help. Exie ran those lines for a while in Utah and she told me that she'd been instructed to tell men that there were no resources for them in state. But that was in the mid 1990s

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
posters that help educate men in general about the way that behaviors they are socially pressured or otherwise taught that it is their privilege to engage in lead to rape is not the same as accusing all men of being rapists by any measure.

I agree with that. If the ads describe those social pressures and pro-rape constructs, rather than coming off like Kate said (you're male so you don't even know how not to rape unless we teach you), then it's helpful to an anti-rape culture rather than just constructing another expectation for rape.

One place where the pseudofeminists help create a feminist rape culture is describing rape stats always in terms of the % of victims, and never even addressing perp numbers. How can you begin to address perp behavior, or prevention of perps, when there's no examination of those committing these acts?

Before you even consider making ads, do some research into the target audience. What could be more obvious?

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