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Author Topic: Is there such a thing as a "rape culture" in America?
kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
The ones that don't need it shouldn't be any more offended than I am at ads trying to get people to buy cars when I clearly don't need a car.

Pyr, THAT is an example of pooh poohing someone's experience. People in college who talked about rape as if all males were rapists hurt me more than the woman that actually molested me when I was 7 and left my crying on the bathroom floor.

If you think that being a victim of sexual abuse treated like I was a rapist just because I'm male is as harmless as trying to sell someone a car, then you're a monster, Kate.

For heaven's sake, how is an ad that is clearly not targeted for you treating you like a rapist? Any more than a car ad not targeted for me treats me like a driver?

If, with a wave of your hand, you could rid the world of rape or of false accusations of being a potential rapist which would you choose?

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Pete at Home
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In my view, most men and women in the world feel disempowered, and IMO the biggest factor in why one subculture will have more rape than another is that the rapists/child molesters think they can get away with it. (And rapists in a fundamentalist muslim community, or a poor immigrant Hispanic community, or a ghetto community, and child molesting women in the general American community, are generally right about being able to get away with it.)

Utah btw has a high Hispanic population, which doesn't IMO speak to cultural propensity to rape, but DOES affect a victim's willingness to come forward. Especially when the victim lacks immigration status. Utah's high farmland and low overall population creates a proportionately large unpoliced transient immigrant population. Combine that with an IMO overall incompetent and reactionary police force, and Utah's rape stats are bad. Not compared to neighboring western states, but like Adam's Tribune article said, bad compared to Utah's own other crime figures. Clearly Utah has the potential to do better. Unfortunately the folks on the front lines trying to actually make things better, get less press than the sack of **** anti-Mormons who milk the rape stats to bash the church.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
If, with a wave of your hand, you could rid the world of rape or of false accusations of being a potential rapist which would you choose?

Rape, since there's more rape than false accusation, and few people die of false rape accusations in the US anymore.

If you could send an extra rapist to prison if you also send an innocent man to prison, would you do it? Would it change your decision if you knew that both the rapist and the innocent man would get raped in prison?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
If you think that being a victim of sexual abuse treated like I was a rapist just because I'm male is as harmless as trying to sell someone a car, then you're a monster, Kate.

For heaven's sake, how is an ad that is clearly not targeted for you
Perhaps I misunderstand what you have in mind.
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scifibum
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Here's a decent example of an anti-rape PSA targeted at men:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/23/young-man-makes-anti-rape-psa-how-to-treat-a-drunk-girl/

It's targeted at all men. I don't think it does any harm, but I'd be interested to hear other perspectives.

(I don't think it's ideal. In fact it's a bit creepy - you shouldn't videotape yourself doing things to an unconscious person without their consent, even if they are benign or kind things. I realize it was staged, and the slight creepiness didn't really happen. I just think there's a slightly less creepy way to send the message, probably.

I do think the benefit of the message outweighs the slight creepiness of the delivery.

Also you should roll passed out drunk people on their sides.)

[ July 28, 2014, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: scifibum ]

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RacerX
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I've seen that before. The only part I find creepy is the "Guess what I'm going to do to her." bit.

I don't know about offended, but I am shocked that anybody would need to be told this!!! Nobody told me not to rape women, nor to not take advantage of them when they are incoherent. Where did the idea that anything but respect is acceptable come from?! And I do mean incoherent not tipsy.

I grew up in the 80's when our drill teams "mating call" was "I'm so wasted!" (That was 'their' inside joke.)

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Nobody told me not to rape women, nor to not take advantage of them when they are incoherent.
Honestly, I don't think people need to be told this. I think most rapists -- and date rapists -- do already know it's wrong. I think ads like this really exist to remind men that if they rape someone, it's their fault and not hers for just being too darn tempting.
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kmbboots
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It seems self-evident that not every one gets that message and that some people do need to be told.
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Pyrtolin
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http://www.wecanstopit.co.uk/default.aspx
http://www.savedmonton.com/about-our-campaigns.html

Are examples of the kinds of campaigns that are effective without perpetuating victim blaming- that actually work to push back against rape culture rather than accepting as the norm and teaching people how to integrate themselves into it. The only people targeted by such ads are the people that haven't fully internalized the concepts presented, not people that can reliably control themselves.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
One place where the pseudofeminists help create a feminist rape culture is describing rape stats always in terms of the % of victims, and never even addressing perp numbers. How can you begin to address perp behavior, or prevention of perps, when there's no examination of those committing these acts?

This is one of your assertions that doesn't actually hold water. The breakdown of perpetrators is very regularly cited.
95% are male
73% are a friend of family member of the victim

You don't have to dig very hard at all to find stats on perpetrators because they're very regularly cited.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
http://www.wecanstopit.co.uk/default.aspx
http://www.savedmonton.com/about-our-campaigns.html

Are examples of the kinds of campaigns that are effective without perpetuating victim blaming- that actually work to push back against rape culture rather than accepting as the norm and teaching people how to integrate themselves into it. The only people targeted by such ads are the people that haven't fully internalized the concepts presented, not people that can reliably control themselves.

This might also be useful: http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/
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Funean
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Apologies if this has been covered (heh, see what I did there), but this struck me:

quote:
It's called "provocative" when a woman does it, but "unprofessional" when a man does it.
Consideration of the (most severe) penalties for the two situations is illuminating in terms of the discussion of whether there is a rape culture and whether or not it affects men and women differently.

What is the worst implied consequence of being 'unprofessional?'

What is the worst implied consequence of being 'provocative?'

Additionally, do we perceive an implicit threat in calling a man 'provocative' (in a sexualized, not pugnacious, context)?

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Grant
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Yay Funean!

quote:
Originally posted by Funean:

What is the worst implied consequence of being 'unprofessional?'

Termination

quote:
What is the worst implied consequence of being 'provocative?'

Corrective action or termination


What are the best implied consequences of being "unprofessional" or "provocative"? [Smile]

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TomDavidson
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I would disagree, Grant.

An "unprofessional" person might be unprofessional for many reasons; a "provocative" person intends to provoke a response, and to some people might deserve a response.

The idea is that a "provocative" person can be assumed to be deliberately trying to force people to react to him/her, and therefore reactions will be justified.

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Funean
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Part of what's worth noting here, as the person who made the comment I quoted implied, is that fact that the same scenario (revealing or sexualized attire at work) generates different terminology depending on the gender of the offender.

Grant, Tom got the point I was making (not saying you didn't; perhaps you only disagree). Here's the thing. 'Unprofessional' is a more benign term than 'provocative' to most people, but more importantly it is limited in scope. 'Unprofessional' actions are only a problem in a professional setting, whereas the scope of the problem of 'provocation' is potentially unlimited. And one's supervisor(s) would be the only agent empowered to take corrective or punitive action on a charge of 'unprofessional' behavior, and with a limited menu of allowable responses, whereas almost anyone is empowered to respond negatively to 'provocation,' and without defined conceptual limits.

To put the situation more baldly, if someone told me I was dressed unprofessionally, I might at worst be annoyed or feel unfairly treated, and proceed accordingly. If someone (particularly a male) told me I was dressed provocatively, my 'possible threat' antenna would shoot right up out of the top of my head--right or wrong. And that's as good an example of 'rape culture' as anything else.

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Seriati
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Ad campaigns are only going to be effective in limited ways. They can have a direct effect educating otherwise good natured people who may be confused about a topic, or they can indirectly influence good and bad people to make an association with events and implement behavioral changes in response to it. I'm not sure that many of the events depicted are that confusing, what percentage of men thought it was okay to have sex with an unconcsious woman but now that they've seen the ad would change their mind?

The only context this direct educational purpose seems to make sense in, are ones that are disputable. Is it rape to badger or pressure your girlfriend till she gives in? By some accounts, yes, yet that would probably turn most men into rapists at some point in their sexual lives (heck it would turn a big chunk of women into rapists too). Is seduction then also rape, due to its manipulative impact? What behaviors are okay and which are not, it's unclear and subjective.

On the other hand the impact on culture may make a difference. An ad campaign that causes people to intervene when they see a drunk girl being lead off, or to lock the door to a room someone passed out in, makes an incremental difference. Forcing abusers to keep silent rather than openly brag about it helps to suppress the behavior. The fear of course is that it goes too far. Look at the absolute mistrust we have of adult men around children, a lot of that is campaign driven.

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NobleHunter
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There's a large area where it isn't unclear and subjective. And if you ask people about it in neutral language, they'll admit to rape and/or sexual assault. Frankly, I have to hope that most of them didn't realize the gravity of what they were doing. I would rather them act in ignorance rather than malice.
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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
There's a large area where it isn't unclear and subjective. And if you ask people about it in neutral language, they'll admit to rape and/or sexual assault. Frankly, I have to hope that most of them didn't realize the gravity of what they were doing. I would rather them act in ignorance rather than malice.

But what you just said isn't logically consistent, it can't be 'clear and nonsubjective,' while people are 'ignorant' of what they're doing, and apparently unknowingly admitting to rape if you phrase it properly.
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NobleHunter
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There's a set of people who, when asked if they've raped someone, they'll say no. If you ask them if they've ever had sex with someone who is passed out drunk, they'll say yes. Or if they've ever had sex with a date who didn't want to.

What they are doing is rape, but they don't see it that way because of reasons. Maybe they think only violent strangers can rape or that since she'd have said yes if she could have it's okay.

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Seriati
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But NobleHunter, you're stating the clearest version of something that may have been less clear. Follow up questions are needed to be sure.

The easiest one is passed out. No grey area, right? How would someone answer if they and their partner were drunk as skunks, had consenual sex and both passed out during? How would they answer if they had sex with their spouse who wasn't in the mode, after 20 minutes of mutual voluntary snuggling resulted in a changed mood?

What you're assuming, is that the reasons can't change the answer to is this rape, when in fact they may.

What if you fall asleep in a bed, and wake to a drunk women having sex with you who then passes out? She couldn't consent and you didn't, what do we have?

I think you have to ask them about their inconsistent answers. Or maybe accept that what's clear is the "predator taking advantage" situation, and not necessarily everything else.

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NobleHunter
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This would be a good time to link to the study, wouldn't it? I can presume they considered those issues, but I'm not certain.
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Seriati
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This is probably closer to the time when people start yelling at me. Lol. I think it would be helpful in thinking about this to show the clear rules in the most confusing examples - rather than in the least confusing ones - to see if we do have the same rules.
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NobleHunter
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Leaving aside legal rules, which have markedly different requirements, the key ones are: only have sex with someone who consents; aim for enthusiastic and explicit consent; and be aware of factors affecting the quality of consent.

If one thinks their partner's consent is compromised, don't have sex. If consent becomes compromised, stop having sex. If one stops at the first sign of trouble, the worst that can happen is not having sex.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:

Grant, Tom got the point I was making (not saying you didn't; perhaps you only disagree). Here's the thing. 'Unprofessional' is a more benign term than 'provocative' to most people, but more importantly it is limited in scope. 'Unprofessional' actions are only a problem in a professional setting, whereas the scope of the problem of 'provocation' is potentially unlimited. And one's supervisor(s) would be the only agent empowered to take corrective or punitive action on a charge of 'unprofessional' behavior, and with a limited menu of allowable responses, whereas almost anyone is empowered to respond negatively to 'provocation,' and without defined conceptual limits.

To put the situation more baldly, if someone told me I was dressed unprofessionally, I might at worst be annoyed or feel unfairly treated, and proceed accordingly. If someone (particularly a male) told me I was dressed provocatively, my 'possible threat' antenna would shoot right up out of the top of my head--right or wrong. And that's as good an example of 'rape culture' as anything else.

LOL. No, I definately did not get that point. I was looking at the questions in a different light.

I see your points now. I would love to get involved in the discussion, but I consider this kind of subject to be "unsafe". It's one of those subjects that stir deep passion and can lead to extreme uncivil disagreement, and I would rather not be put on some hitlist. I never really had a dog in this hunt, I was only peeking in and making some driveby remarks. [Smile]

So in closing, all hail.

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RacerX
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quote:
An ad campaign that causes people to intervene when they see a drunk girl being lead off,
I hope that she was seriously inebriated in the commercial? And not just a normally drunk girl at a bar who has purposely gotten herself drunk to lower her inhibitions and do what she came there to do. Namely; slink off and have sex with a stranger.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I would disagree, Grant.

An "unprofessional" person might be unprofessional for many reasons; a "provocative" person intends to provoke a response, and to some people might deserve a response.

The idea is that a "provocative" person can be assumed to be deliberately trying to force people to react to him/her, and therefore reactions will be justified.

Your misuse of the word "force" is literally sophistry. To be more specific, it's the argument of the Sophist Gorgias, to whom any message "forces" the target to respond. Gorgias argues that in seducing Helen, that Paris "forced" her to succumb with praise and flattery.

To incite or invite a response need not rise to the level of force or deception, in order to be an act of solicitation.

In Die Hard III, Bruce Willis wears a provocative shirt that states "I hate [racial epithet]" in Harlem.

I think that one can note the stupid PROVOCATION of walking down Harlem with a shirt that says "I hate n*ggers," without arguing that someone that wears such a shirt "deserves" to beome the victim of aggravated battery, or that aggravated battery is "justified" (tosses perfectly ripe half-tomato at Funean".)

And I'd hope that even Funean would agree with me that it would be "unprofessional" dress for a cop to wear such a shirt in Harlem.

Thus, provocative is a sub-set of unprofessional.

Note that I wasn't the one that brought up the word "provocative" to begin with, though. I've simply argued that showing beaucoup cleavage should be disallowed as unprofessional in situations where it's considered unprofessional for a man to show as much of his chest.

As usual, Pyr can't seem to make up his mind as to whether what I've said is too obvious to deserve comment, or too appalling to address without changing the subject.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Your misuse of the word "force" is literally sophistry.
*sigh*
In that post I am literally engaging in sophistry, Pete. So, um, congratulations?

Note that I am not claiming that provocative people do in fact force responses; rather, I am saying that the use of the word "provocative" in lieu of the word "unprofessional" implies a scenario where a response is more necessary, and might even be believed to be forced. There is a different connotation to the word "provocative" that is not present when the word "unprofessional" is used.

Provocative is indeed a sub-set of unprofessional, in much the same way that murder is a subset of crime.

I'm not sure why you're being defensive about this, though, since as you noted it wasn't your terminology in the first place. And no one was talking to you about it.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Your misuse of the word "force" is literally sophistry.
*sigh*
In that post I am literally engaging in sophistry, Pete.

Pete: Augh! The whole point was lost on him, my precious. He didn't grasp the fine point that the common use of the word "sophistry" is figurative, whereas he's buying into the reasoning-as-force theory of Gorgias the Sophist.

rePete: Our words and efforts are wasted on El Tom. Wasted, my precious.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:


I'm not sure why you're being defensive about this, though, since as you noted it wasn't your terminology in the first place. And no one was talking to you about it.

Who were they talking to about it?

I discussed the massive bare chest display as unprofessional, and as distracting in some situations (e.g. in courtroom settings or in the classroom). My argument got the typical left-swipe mangle: lefties responded to what I said by saying that female cleavage displays are typically called "provocative" and that this is discriminatory, therefore women should be able to show off their ta tas in court and in the classroom. As for distraction, the lefty answer on this thread was that jurors and students should just control themselves. My reply is that of course we should all control ourselves, but imposing an additional burden of self-restraint is in itself a distraction, and that since it's OK to seek to eliminate distractions such as ringing cell phones from court and classroom, that fleshy distractions may also reasonably be targeted so long as the restrictions are equitable to both genders.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by RacerX:
quote:
An ad campaign that causes people to intervene when they see a drunk girl being lead off,
I hope that she was seriously inebriated in the commercial? And not just a normally drunk girl at a bar who has purposely gotten herself drunk to lower her inhibitions and do what she came there to do. Namely; slink off and have sex with a stranger.
I had a friend in vegas who told me that's what she does (or rather did before she got married). I don't know that's the "normal" reason a woman gets drunk in a bar, though. In Vegas, more often I saw women drunk because someone was plying them with drinks, or because they weren't experienced drinkers and didn't know their limits.
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Pete at Home
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5 unnamed 13-14 year old boys in the UK charged in child rape

Is there any doubt to the ethnicity of the rapists?

All this blather about a monolithic rape culture evades the point that cultural factors that promote rape are not universal, but tie to specific narrow traditions. Indian/Pakistan misogyny is epic.

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Pyrtolin
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A conclusion that you can only get to by sticking your head in the sand and only focusing on very narrow categories of behavior:

http://mic.com/articles/94844/rape-culture-is-everywhere-our-children-can-see-watch-your-favorite-movies-prove-it

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
A conclusion that you can only get to by sticking your head in the sand and only focusing on very narrow categories of behavior:

http://mic.com/articles/94844/rape-culture-is-everywhere-our-children-can-see-watch-your-favorite-movies-prove-it

Heaven forbid that we should examine the "very narrow category of behavior" of actual rape when we discuss "rape culture." Thank you for making my point about lefty grave dancing, Pyr. You use the spectre and threat of Rape to force social changes that have ****-nothing to do with rape.
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Pete at Home
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Your psychotic link claims that serenading an ex lover (as done in "say anything") borders on rape.

I say crap, Pyr. Go fish. And poo on you for trivializing rape. Serenading may be trespassing, and if done persistently or with threats may amount to stalking, but rape it ain't.

And it has nothing to do with the cause of 13-14 year old indian and pakistani kids raping a neighbor like they do with impunity in the home country.

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NobleHunter
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Do you actually have information on the ethnicity of the accused in your link, Pete?
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Pyrtolin
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Examine the way our culture still institutionalizes objectification, ignoring consent. Pointing out that other cultures have institutionalized rape to a greater degree is completely irrelevant to the point- actively derailing the issue being raised and trying to handwave it away. You keep presenting a false either-or choice here, as if trying to address our own shortcomings somehow magically prevents us from also dealing with more egregious situations that fall within our jurisdiction. Those are bad situations. They're also completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Start a separate thread about them if you think there's any dissent on the idea that they're bad and we should do what we can to mitigate, if not stop them, instead of trying to pretend that they're at all relevant to discussing the way western culture still promotes ideas and attitudes within itself that directly contribute to the rapes that occur within our own cultural context.
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Pyrtolin
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And your hand waving away of outright stalking and denial of consent are exactly the kind of baseline attitude that is fundamentally at question here. We take a creepy, abusive behavior and forgive it as romantic, despite the fact that it actively involves negating the expressed wishes of another person and overpowering them with your own desires.

That's where the statement that rape is fundamentally about power comes from. IT may involve intercourse, but the reason that it's a violation is because the perpetrator has, at the outset, used some form of power to negate the expressed wishes of another person to gain access to them.

[ August 08, 2014, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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Pete at Home
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Here, Pyr demonstrates the exact sort of vicious personal leftwash that I was complaining about. Next he'll be calling me a rapist for disagreeing with me.


quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
And your hand waving away of outright stalking

Please don't lie about what I said. I'm the one that brought up stalking. I didn't hand-wave it away. I said that even "stalking" someone by singing to them, unwanted, at their window, does not constitute rape.

Arson isn't rape either. Am I hand-waving away arson by saying that arson isn't rape?

No wonder you defend Sharpton and Jackson: you are here using false personal accusations to intimidate someone who disagrees with you into silence. Shame on you, Pyr.
quote:
denial of consent
Where the **** did I deny consent?

Pete: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ August 08, 2014, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
Examine the way our culture still institutionalizes objectification, ignoring consent.

That could be a cogent argument if you followed it up with specific examples. I'm open to the argument that our culture institutionalizes objectification and ignores consent. But I think it's remarkably dirty of you to accuse me of "denying consent" just because I don't immediately agree with your nutty link that associates adolescent serenading with "rape."

quote:
We take a creepy, abusive behavior and forgive it as romantic, despite the fact that it actively involves negating the expressed wishes of another person and overpowering them with your own desires.
I don't consent to your sticking me and my desires into your lurid little fantasy, Pyr. I find it rather creepy that you phrased it that way.

If you start up an intense romantic relationship with someone and then dump her cold, and she comes over to try to TALK you out of it, you call that "negating the expressed wishes of another person and overpowering them with your own desires"? I find your position anti-human. Sure, if she comes onto your property, you can call the cops for trespass, and if she follows you down the street despite your express request that she leave you alone, you can charge her with stalking. But someone has the right to attempt to persuade you to change your mind, so long as they don't cross such boundaries or infringe on your rights.

[ August 08, 2014, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

That's where the statement that rape is fundamentally about power comes from. IT may involve intercourse, but the reason that it's a violation is because the perpetrator has, at the outset, used some form of power to negate the expressed wishes of another person to gain access to them.

Do you ever stop to think about this stuff you're spouting? By the standards you just laid out, it's rape to serenade outside an ex-lover's window, but it's not rape for you to drug a stranger with GHB and copulate with her in a closet, because she hasn't "expressed" the wish for you not to do that to her. [Roll Eyes] [DOH]

Is anyone else going to hop on Pyr's ship and say that rape isn't about forced sex?

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