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Author Topic: Is there such a thing as a "rape culture" in America?
Pyrtolin
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quote:
Depends on which space we're talking about, Pyr. And at some level you must understand that, otherwise you'd not have twerked the facts to have him "cornering her in her house" rather than standing in the driveway playing a boom box on low volume.
Make up your mind- was he outside her house or not? You seem to jump to saying that the situation did not happen with her in her house and him directly imposing himself on her while she was there to pointing out that that's exactly what did happen.

She was in her house, effectively at the position of maximum retreat, and he put himself in a position that she would have had to find a way to flee what should have been a baseline safe place from intrusion to further avoid contact with him, forcing her to confront him in some way or another rather than allowing her freedom in even that place of last resort.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
How do you know the advance was unwanted?
If it was not explicitly invited, then it's uninvited. Something cannot be invited unless an invitation exists.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
But what I call legal coercion, Pyr seems to call noncoercive and even nonpressure because of some "entitlement."
Because an explicit contract somehow does not, in your eyes, represent an entitlement to what was agreed to in it? Heck, even without the contract, the aim of the threat to sue someone is to take away something from them (money, if nothing else) that they believed they are entitled to have.
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Pete at Home
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If that's it, Pyr, why are we talking about say anything? Wouldnt Green Eggs and Ham be.the epitome.of "Rape culture"?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
The value in persistence isn't "earning" sex, the value in persistence is getting mroe opportunity to make a connection. It's the connection that sometimes leads to the sex, not a gameboy version of continuing to talk to a woman.

If you want to change your position such that persistence now means "continuing to interact and build a platonic relationship", sure, that's fine. Up till now, persistance has meant "Continue to attempt to convince them to enter a romantic relationship" which crosses the line into coercive behavoir because it attempts to manipulate them toward an end that you desire that they've already expressed a disinterest in.
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Pete at Home
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Once again, Pyr manages to twerk what I said into exactly its opposite:

quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
But what I call legal coercion, Pyr seems to call noncoercive and even nonpressure because of some "entitlement."
Because an explicit contract somehow does not, in your eyes, represent an entitlement to what was agreed to in it?
You are wrong. Because an explicit and lawful contract DOES, in my eyes, represent entitlement, I believe that legal coercion is acceptable in order to procure something to which one is legally entitled. Prisons, police and courts exist precisely because some times coercion is necessary to secure the rights of the people, and because such coercion can only be rightfully carried out by carefully constrained rules and separation of powers. (And even with those restriction, coercion is often applied unnecessarily and abusively).
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
If that's it, Pyr, why are we talking about say anything? Wouldnt Green Eggs and Ham be.the epitome.of "Rape culture"?

We're talking about it because it was an example of explicit non-consensual behavoir that the movie demonstrates approval for despite the inherently creepy nature and violations of someone's express will, personal space, and privacy that are involved.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
How do you know the advance was unwanted?
If it was not explicitly invited, then it's uninvited.
Rubbish. If you go to a dance, and someone tries to engage you in a dance (without touching you), that person's advances are neither explicitly invited nor uninvited until you explicitly indicate your disinterest. And if you break up but don't tell someone they aren't invited to come visit again, you've left that open.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Once again, Pyr manages to twerk what I said into exactly its opposite:

quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
But what I call legal coercion, Pyr seems to call noncoercive and even nonpressure because of some "entitlement."
Because an explicit contract somehow does not, in your eyes, represent an entitlement to what was agreed to in it?
You are wrong. Because an explicit and lawful contract DOES, in my eyes, represent entitlement, I believe that legal coercion is acceptable in order to procure something to which one is legally entitled. Prisons, police and courts exist precisely because some times coercion is necessary to secure the rights of the people, and because such coercion can only be rightfully carried out by carefully constrained rules and separation of powers. (And even with those restriction, coercion is often applied unnecessarily and abusively).
Then your prior assertion about what I was saying is nonsense because it hinges on the contract not representing an entitlement in the same way that no entitlement to sex with any given person exists.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
[qb]Rubbish. If you go to a dance, and someone tries to engage you in a dance (without touching you), that person's advances are neither explicitly invited nor uninvited until you explicitly indicate your disinterest.


You see no communication involved in the intentional act of going to a dance in the first place?

quote:
And if you break up but don't tell someone they aren't invited to come visit again, you've left that open.
Sure, but we're not talking about an instance of stopping by for a friendly visit for its own sake here. We're talking about an instance of uninvited manipulation to change that decision.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
If that's it, Pyr, why are we talking about say anything? Wouldnt Green Eggs and Ham be.the epitome.of "Rape culture"?

We're talking about it because it was an example of explicit non-consensual behavoir that the movie demonstrates approval for despite the inherently creepy nature and violations of someone's express will, personal space, and privacy that are involved.
I've posted two links to clips from that movie, and so far no one here contests that your analysis is insane.

In contrast:
THIS is an example of a clear manifestation of will to not eat green eggs and ham
Thisand THIS are clear invasion of personal space.

THIS is invasive persistence
THIS is knuckling under to persistence.

I don't understand why you make such big flap about Say Anything but have no problem with children being inculcated with "rape culture" from the cradle. [Big Grin]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
[qb]Rubbish. If you go to a dance, and someone tries to engage you in a dance (without touching you), that person's advances are neither explicitly invited nor uninvited until you explicitly indicate your disinterest.


You see no communication involved in the intentional act of going to a dance in the first place?

No EXPLICIT communication. You're the one that keeps using that word. Do you know what it means?
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TomDavidson
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Can we all agree that The Giving Tree is a profoundly sick book?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
She's engaged in a romantic relationship with the guy, and he's been invited to her house previously.
Except she is, very explicitly, no longer engaged in a romantic relationship with the guy. The scenario would have been different if he had just stopped by to hang out and play video games with her without applying any pressure to revisit her decision about continuing the relationship.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
If that's it, Pyr, why are we talking about say anything? Wouldnt Green Eggs and Ham be.the epitome.of "Rape culture"?

We're talking about it because it was an example of explicit non-consensual behavoir that the movie demonstrates approval for despite the inherently creepy nature and violations of someone's express will, personal space, and privacy that are involved.
I've posted two links to clips from that movie, and so far no one here contests that your analysis is insane.

In contrast:
THIS is an example of a clear manifestation of will to not eat green eggs and ham
Thisand THIS are clear invasion of personal space.

THIS is invasive persistence
THIS is knuckling under to persistence.

I don't understand why you make such big flap about Say Anything but have no problem with children being inculcated with "rape culture" from the cradle. [Big Grin]

Heh. I've actually told my children that Sam's behavior is inappropriate, and it's not okay to hassle people once they turn down your invitation.
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Pete at Home
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Oh, I agree, SciFi. Although I did have to force-feed fluids to Thing One, at Doctor's orders, when he had RSV at 11 months. [Frown]
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
[qb]Rubbish. If you go to a dance, and someone tries to engage you in a dance (without touching you), that person's advances are neither explicitly invited nor uninvited until you explicitly indicate your disinterest.


You see no communication involved in the intentional act of going to a dance in the first place?

No EXPLICIT communication. You're the one that keeps using that word. Do you know what it means?
Indeed, but you seem to be limiting it to verbal communication here. There are many explicit non-verbal signals that apply in such situations that allow for directly communicating openness to and interest in being asked to participate in activities specific to that context.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I don't understand why you make such big flap about Say Anything but have no problem with children being inculcated with "rape culture" from the cradle.

Where did I express, in any way, that Green Eggs in Ham was not problematic in that regard?

You asked why we were discussing one and not the other. I responded to that question, not the tangent that was invited but not necessary to pursue.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
She's engaged in a romantic relationship with the guy, and he's been invited to her house previously.
Except she is, very explicitly, no longer engaged in a romantic relationship with the guy. The scenario would have been different if he had just stopped by to hang out and play video games with her without applying any pressure to revisit her decision about continuing the relationship.
I agree that would have been better, and healthier for him. But your use of the term "coercive" is over the top. He isn't saying that it's going to be easier to just give in than to get rid of him. He's reminding her of aspects of him that she (inexplicably) finds attractive.

I unambiguously and legally terminated Sallie Mae's servicing of my student loans due to gouging, incompetence and basic rudeness, and I received a polite phone call asking if there was anything they could do to retain me. I didn't feel I was being invaded or harassed. And from the bit of the movie I've seen, she didn't seem to feel harassed either. If I'm wrong, have someone who knows how to describe stuff accurately describe it to me, since we've established that he didn't actually corner her in her house.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Last I checked the best advice from pyschologists is that we should be able to be open about our sexual needs and desires. I don't see advocating deliberate sexual repression in the name of a "false" friendship - since you're really interested in a sexual relationship but apparently too noble to ask for it - is a step forward for anyone.
No one has a legitimate "need" to have sex with any particular person. That false construction is part of the heart of the issue at hand. It is good to be open about the kind of sexual things you're interested,. It's even fine to express to someone that you have a sexual interest in them. But falsely casting that as a need to have sex with them or otherwise implying any obligation on their part to meet that need because you have it part and parcel of the problems we're discussing. One can communicate ones own interest without making it an imposition on the one that they're communicating to that forces them to choose whether or not they're interested in acting on that desire.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I unambiguously and legally terminated Sallie Mae's servicing of my student loans due to gouging, incompetence and basic rudeness, and I received a polite phone call asking if there was anything they could do to retain me. I didn't feel I was being invaded or harassed. And from the bit of the movie I've seen, she didn't seem to feel harassed either. If I'm wrong, have someone who knows how to describe stuff accurately describe it to me, since we've established that he didn't actually corner her in her house.

Where are you suggesting she was then? The descriptions all seem to pretty clearly say she was in her house when he confronted her, not anywhere in public where should could have at least safely retreated to her house.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
He isn't saying that it's going to be easier to just give in than to get rid of him.
In what way is he communicating that if she asks him to leave this time he'll actually respect her decision, where he is actively evidencing by his behavoir that he did not respect it previously? At what point should she expect that he'll take "no" to mean "no" and not "try again"?
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Pete at Home
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Pyr, you said HE "cornered" her in her house. He was in the driveway. She could.tell him to.leave, call the cops, draw on family to respond ... i cant think of a More.secure position she could.be, to rebut his advances. And that's not even counting stand your ground laws. [Smile]
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Pete at Home
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Pyr, is.need another word you have twerked? Can you conceive that one.might need something they arent entitled.to?

If you think need constitutes entitlement, that's as rapey a concept.as.anything in green eggs ans ham.

A woman needs a man's sperm in order to.make a baby with him. That doesnt mean she's entitled to it.

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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
Rubbish. If you go to a dance, and someone tries to engage you in a dance (without touching you), that person's advances are neither explicitly invited nor uninvited until you explicitly indicate your disinterest.

You see no communication involved in the intentional act of going to a dance in the first place?
Isn't this the defintion of painting yourself into a corner? Please refer back to the chart you linked about whether men are entitled to have sex, and rethink this argument that going to the dance communicates something.
quote:
Indeed, but you seem to be limiting it to verbal communication here. There are many explicit non-verbal signals that apply in such situations that allow for directly communicating openness to and interest in being asked to participate in activities specific to that context.
Ahh... non-verbal signals, the hallmark of informed femnistic sexual communication theory... oh no wait that's backwards again isn't it. The theories you are running with would expressly limit taking any cues from non-verbal signals.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Isn't this the defintion of painting yourself into a corner? Please refer back to the chart you linked about whether men are entitled to have sex, and rethink this argument that going to the dance communicates something.
IF the example was "Going to an orgy", then I'd say that the act of doing so explicitly communicates an interest in being asked if you'd like to have sex, so long as you are ernest and willing to take no for an answer in the same way that going to a dance explicitly communicates the same baseline for dancing, but nothing more.
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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
[qb]The value in persistence isn't "earning" sex, the value in persistence is getting mroe opportunity to make a connection. It's the connection that sometimes leads to the sex, not a gameboy version of continuing to talk to a woman.

If you want to change your position such that persistence now means "continuing to interact and build a platonic relationship", sure, that's fine. Up till now, persistance has meant "Continue to attempt to convince them to enter a romantic relationship" which crosses the line into coercive behavoir because it attempts to manipulate them toward an end that you desire that they've already expressed a disinterest in.
Lol, now you're arguing with yourself about your strawman? I never added platonic.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
[qb]The value in persistence isn't "earning" sex, the value in persistence is getting mroe opportunity to make a connection. It's the connection that sometimes leads to the sex, not a gameboy version of continuing to talk to a woman.

If you want to change your position such that persistence now means "continuing to interact and build a platonic relationship", sure, that's fine. Up till now, persistance has meant "Continue to attempt to convince them to enter a romantic relationship" which crosses the line into coercive behavoir because it attempts to manipulate them toward an end that you desire that they've already expressed a disinterest in.
Lol, now you're arguing with yourself about your strawman? I never added platonic.
In which case you're talking nonsense. Continually badgering someone that has declined you for a romantic relationships is harassment. No means no until that person freely decides to change it without you disrespecting the current state of their answer by trying to push the issue.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Pyr, you said HE "cornered" her in her house. He was in the driveway.


And she was in her house. Thus cornered and forced to interact and deal with him in some way rather than being freely able to opt to disregard him.


quote:
She could.tell him to.leave, call the cops, draw on family to respond ... i cant think of a More.secure position she could.be, to rebut his advances. And that's not even counting stand your ground laws.
Indeed- but all of those force her to take action in regards to him. None allow her to freely go about her business without being required to deal with his insistence that she must respond to him in some way.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
A woman needs a man's sperm in order to.make a baby with him. That doesnt mean she's entitled to it.

You're playing games with different meanings of the same word. That example has no bearing on the context in question.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Can you conceive that one.might need something they arent entitled.to?
Sure I can. The problem is that you're standing on a position that interprets a mistaken perception of need to entitle the person that believes they have that need to harass another person to fulfill it.

My position is, very explicitly, that no valid need to have sex with a specific individual exists, and that even the perception of such a need does not entitle a person to pressure the object of their desire take action to fulfill it in any way.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
The problem is that you're standing on a position that interprets a mistaken perception of need to entitle the person that believes they have that need to harass another person to fulfill it.

No, I'm not. I don't think the Cusack story has anything to do with needs or entitlements. BTW, that sentence I quoted needs to be taken out and shot ... I recommend a book called "Revising Prose."
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
A woman needs a man's sperm in order to.make a baby with him. That doesnt mean she's entitled to it.

You're playing games with different meanings of the same word.
I don't think so. I think you're just using the word wrong, and that you're probably just used to people using it wrong and imprecisely.
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Pyrtolin
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Seriati raise the issue of ernest expression sexual desires and needs. Subjective things that are important for an individual to have a healthy and fulfilling sex life. He was not talking about functional process requirements such as in your example of sperm and egg fusion being needed to have a child. "Thing that is essential for an individual to have" is very different from "Thing required for a physical process to complete" even though the same term happens to be used to express both.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
The problem is that you're standing on a position that interprets a mistaken perception of need to entitle the person that believes they have that need to harass another person to fulfill it.

No, I'm not. I don't think the Cusack story has anything to do with needs or entitlements. BTW, that sentence I quoted needs to be taken out and shot ... I recommend a book called "Revising Prose."
The boy in the story appears to believe he needs to continue the relationship. And because of tha, (or even if he doesn't) he certainly acts as if he is entitled to ignore her expressed wish to end the relationship and invade her personal space in an attempt to manipulate her into continuing it.
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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
The boy in the story appears to believe he needs to continue the relationship. And because of tha, (or even if he doesn't) he certainly acts as if he is entitled to ignore her expressed wish to end the relationship and invade her personal space in an attempt to manipulate her into continuing it.

Some women would call that "romance", Pyr. [Smile]

It seems there is not a clear consensus on what constitutes "romance" and what constitutes "harassment". The definition of harassment is that it is unwanted, which is a subjective reaction.

I'm not a father of a girl. But if a were, I would hope I could differentiate between a kid playing a boom box outside my daughter's window, and making "untoward", threatening, unwanted physical advances.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Some women would call that "romance", Pyr.
Indeed- romanticization is one of the way our culture gives a nod to such behaviors. People learn what should consider to be romantic from their culture, and in that way their culture can teach them to expect, enjoy, and perpetuate damaging behaviors. That's the fundamental nature of any systemic problem- the system reinforces itself by teaching people that the damage it perpetuates is normal and how things should be.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
But if a were, I would hope I could differentiate between a kid playing a boom box outside my daughter's window, and making "untoward", threatening, unwanted physical advances.
I imagine asking her if this was something she wanted or not would probably be the best way to make that call.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
The problem is that you're standing on a position that interprets a mistaken perception of need to entitle the person that believes they have that need to harass another person to fulfill it.

No, I'm not. I don't think the Cusack story has anything to do with needs or entitlements. BTW, that sentence I quoted needs to be taken out and shot ... I recommend a book called "Revising Prose."
The boy in the story appears to believe he needs to continue the relationship.
That may or may not be so, but please don't project your interpretation of his view onto me.

I don't think it's "harassment" for a dumped teenager to make one awkward but non-boundary-violating attempt to reconcile with his loved one. If there's any truth to the whole rape culture argument, you discredit it with such extreme postures.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I don't think it's "harassment" for a dumped teenager to make one awkward but non-boundary-violating attempt to reconcile with his loved one. If there's any truth to the whole rape culture argument, you discredit it with such extreme postures.

The key being "non-boundary violating". What he did was extremely boundary violating, and the movie presents such boundary violation as a good and noble thing, not a very creepy and bad thing to do.
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