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Author Topic: Is there such a thing as a "rape culture" in America?
Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Well no. Remember, you're the one who keeps using words like "fundamental" and "violation" to refer to the boombox incident.

Works that don't convey enormity, only essence.corssed a boundary without obtaining any direct form of consent to do so. That is a fundamental violation, regardless of how small an example of such a violation it is.
quote:
I think that kind of language, applied to something so small, trivializes rape.
Which would be true if this was being equated to rape. But that is a misinterpretation that has already been pointed out to you. This is an example of the kind of attitude that leads to many, if not most rapes in our culture at large, specifically this attitude:

quote:
I don't think it infringes on her *consent*, unless she tells him to go away and he refuses.
That is precisely the horrible attitude that is at teh core of the issue. "Well, they didn't say 'no'" is _never_ acceptable. Only a clear and willing "yes" is acceptable. It is not the duty of the person being encroached upon to say no. It is the duty of the person doing the encroaching to ensure that they have a clear and explicit yes before continuing. That's the fundamental principle that's being violated.
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Seriati
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Pyrtolin, you literally told Pete that you were not equating it with rape, and in the very next example directly equated it to rape.

And I clearly said that the law defines the minimums not the "gold" standard. Between the two is a range of behavior that is of differing levels of social desirability, not a great mass of parts of the rape culture and the vulcan ideal.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
It's literally him asking permission to reenter her life, the fact that he didn't send a notorized form ahead of time to enquire if he had permission to suprise her with a romantic gesture intended to regain her favor is overkill on your part.

He was asking permission by conducting the act.

Not even remotely. Asking her permission would be asking her permission. This was asserting that he had permission and exercising it. Nothing about what he did asks her if he can be there doing that, rather it asserts his presence there whether she likes it or not.

quote:
Who do you think I'm slandering? Is it your assertion that such cites do not exist? Or that they are mainstream and not extreme? Or is it your assertion that this represented an original thought on your part uninfluenced by other philosophical work on the point?
You are slandering the vast majority of mainstream feminist sources that advance the basic notion of positive consent by casting them as extreme, fringe sites with minority opinions. Nice try at throwing out an array of false choices, though.

[quote[In my view, you have not represented your position clearly enough to set actual standards of conduct, [/quote]
It is the responsibility of the person who might be crossing another person's boundaries to learn what boundaries that person has and obtain clear, enthusiastic consent to cross them. It is _never_ the duty of the person being encroached up on to have to assert a no in response to an unwelcome advance- any response but a clear and willing "yes" should be treated as a "no".

That that restatement of what I've said over and over already good enough for you, or will you continue to try to suggest that I have not said that.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
Pyrtolin, you literally told Pete that you were not equating it with rape, and in the very next example directly equated it to rape.

Not in the slightest.I equated it to an attitude that leads to rapes. Not to rape. There is a vast difference between the two things.

quote:
And I clearly said that the law defines the minimums not the "gold" standard. Between the two is a range of behavior that is of differing levels of social desirability, not a great mass of parts of the rape culture and the vulcan ideal.
The law sets the _maximum_ legally allowable bound on a given behavior, not the minimum. And it does not in any way provide an unbiased standard for what is actually acceptable or innocuous. Only what we have the cultural will to assign legal consequences to.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
not a great mass of parts of the rape culture and the vulcan ideal.
And you continue with misrepresenting someone else's argument instead of sticking to presenting your own.
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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
It's literally him asking permission to reenter her life, the fact that he didn't send a notorized form ahead of time to enquire if he had permission to suprise her with a romantic gesture intended to regain her favor is overkill on your part.

He was asking permission by conducting the act.

Not even remotely. Asking her permission would be asking her permission. This was asserting that he had permission and exercising it. Nothing about what he did asks her if he can be there doing that, rather it asserts his presence there whether she likes it or not.
He was asking her permission to continue their relationship, with an unspoken plea.

Your claim by the is gross mission creep, and a far cry from your original assertion that this was some form of coercive behavior. You seem to have down graded that to a bizarre property claim.
quote:
quote:
Who do you think I'm slandering? Is it your assertion that such cites do not exist? Or that they are mainstream and not extreme? Or is it your assertion that this represented an original thought on your part uninfluenced by other philosophical work on the point?
You are slandering the vast majority of mainstream feminist sources that advance the basic notion of positive consent by casting them as extreme, fringe sites with minority opinions. Nice try at throwing out an array of false choices, though.
What part of asserting that the claim appears on extremist sites is slandering mainstream sites? Most people, including average feminists do not equate romantic gestures with impermissable parts of the rape culture. Human intelligence is what allows us to distinguish between events that are quirky and charming, and those that are creepy and over the top.
quote:
quote:
In my view, you have not represented your position clearly enough to set actual standards of conduct,
It is the responsibility of the person who might be crossing another person's boundaries to learn what boundaries that person has and obtain clear, enthusiastic consent to cross them. It is _never_ the duty of the person being encroached up on to have to assert a no in response to an unwelcome advance- any response but a clear and willing "yes" should be treated as a "no".
Actually, no. You're only partially correct. There are many contexts where even a first advance is not acceptable, physical contact for instance is not an area where ambiguity is acceptable.

However, there are many contexts where you're just wrong. No one needs to ask permission to ask for a date. The request for the date is itself the permission. Your right to not have your boundaries crossed is not absolute, it ends where the other persons right to free expression is being reasonably exercised. By your model, we should be able to repress most art, as it deliberately sets out to cross our boundaries - often without consent.
quote:
That that restatement of what I've said over and over already good enough for you, or will you continue to try to suggest that I have not said that.
It's no where near good enough. It's not specific at all. Again you fudge on distinguishing between behaviours that society accepts in favor of an absolute prohibition on the rights of one part to express themselves that isn't consistent with our expectations in any other context.

You have not reasonable articulated any grounds to except your zero tolerence rule over the existing ability of people to use rationale judgement in grey areas.

Presumably, for instance you believe that surprise parties should be criminalized.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
It's literally him asking permission to reenter her life, the fact that he didn't send a notorized form ahead of time to enquire if he had permission to suprise her with a romantic gesture intended to regain her favor is overkill on your part.

He was asking permission by conducting the act.

Not even remotely. Asking her permission would be asking her permission. This was asserting that he had permission and exercising it. Nothing about what he did asks her if he can be there doing that, rather it asserts his presence there whether she likes it or not.
He was asking her permission to continue their relationship, with an unspoken plea.
Didn't she already deny that permission when she dumped him?

If she says "no" again and he shows up the next night, would that still be a romantic gesture of asking permission? How about the night after that? How many times does she have to say no before you stop thinking his behavior is sweet? Is their a number of refusals that will convince you that she knows her own mind?

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vegimo
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I wonder if it changes anything that the reason she dumped him was that she was pressured to do so by her father...that there was seemingly very little reason for her dumping him...that she seemed upset to be dumping him in the first place.
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Pete at Home
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Kate: when she asks.him to stop coming back. That's when it's violation.
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Pete at Home
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" How many times does she have to say no before you stop thinking his behavior is sweet?"
Get off my leg, Kate. I never said that the behavior was sweet. I said that the behavior was unhealthy.

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Pete at Home
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" That is precisely the horrible attitude that is at teh core of the issue. "Well, they didn't say 'no'" is _never_ acceptable. Only a clear and willing "yes" is acceptable. It is not the duty of the person being encroached upon to say no."

You have already admitted that's crap, Pyr. If you're at a dance, and someone tries to dance with you, it's your obligation to say no. If it's Halloween, then it's your duty to turn the porch light off so kids know you are saying no to.trick.or treaters. Your wors "never" turns your argument to.crap. there are clearly incidents where it's necessary to.say no

Furthermore, by taking rules which make.sense with consent to.actual.sexual intimacies, and applying them to boom boxes and verbal communications, you trivialize rape. Different rules apply to.sex, than, say, tapping someone's shoulder.to.get their attention in a noisy room.

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kmbboots
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Pete, don't assume I am only talking to you.
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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Didn't she already deny that permission when she dumped him?

No, she didn't deny permission to ask to get back together by dumping him. It's kind of impossible that such would be the case, or else noone could get back together. You're always free to ask.
quote:
If she says "no" again and he shows up the next night, would that still be a romantic gesture of asking permission? How about the night after that? How many times does she have to say no before you stop thinking his behavior is sweet? Is their a number of refusals that will convince you that she knows her own mind?
And see, now you're talking about when he's crossing the line. For instance if he asked every five minutes, I'd think most of us would recognise that as harassment pretty swiftly. But what if he asked every year on his birthday, most of us would not.

I never thought his behaviour was sweet. The character of Diane (right?) was written to think it was so, and there are plenty of romantics out there that cite to that specific moment, so they must have thought so too.

I also always thought she knows her own mind. Of course, movies are often written so that characters are ignoring what their own mind is telling them. It doesn't take a certain amount of refusals to convince me.

I honestly don't think you can have a "bright line" test, because what Lloyd and Diane believe is okay between themselves is clearly different than what Pyrtolin would accept or do, but my point is that doesn't make them wrong, or Lloyd and abuser, or Diane a helpless female who's coerced into ending up with Lloyd because of some form of coercive manipulation.

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kmbboots
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Can you see how such movies might incline men to think that women who dump them or say "no" to them are "ignoring what their own mind is telling them"? This is what is problematic here. Both men and women are being trained not to believe women when we say what we don't want.

[ August 19, 2014, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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Seriati
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No kmbboots, I don't believe that. Everyone I know has had a relationship end, most many, many of those went poorly, some got back together. But I don't know anyone that thought they had a right to get back with their ex, or thought their ex wasn't the one that decided if they wanted them back. They might have hoped it, they might have promised they'd changed, they might even have tried grand gestures, but they didn't think they had a right to change their mind against their will. Equating persuasion in interpersonal relationships, with rape and sexual assualts - which are physical acts - leads to these kind of strange attempts at equivalence. It's okay to continue to talk to someone in circumstances where it would not be okay to continue to physically touch them.

I think it's interesting that we all have views associated with information that conflict on this point. Do you believe media coverage causes school shootings? If not, you're being inconsistent here. Do you believe that Grand Theft Auto inclines people to beat up hookers, commit crimes and shoot people? If not you're being inconsistent here. Yet most of us accept that body image issues are compounded by potrayals of models, do we not? Which is consistent with this philosophy.

When you're talking about conditioning men (and women) to me, kmbboots, what actually trains men about women is what actually works or doesn't work on the real live women in their lives, not the fake ones in the movies. Every guy I know who believes in the movie message - ie that no matter how little they do to make themselves desirable they deserve the perfect model - is still alone in his forties.

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kmbboots
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Seriati, do you understand the difference between "cause" and "incline"? Just because you don't personally know men who behave that way, do you think that they don't exist? Do you think that real women aren't being disregarded when they say "no" - because I can tell you that I know several.

There is a difference between causing something and contributing to it.

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Seriati
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kmbboots can you clarify what you mean on that? Disregarded in what way?

See it's already loaded in the context of this converstation. When you say it that way, it sounds like they were raped or assualted, and if that's what you meant you're not getting disagreement that it was wrong. But if what you mean is they turned a guy down for a date on Saturday night, and he called them the next week about the following Friday, it's something else.

There are differences in causation and contribution, but there's also a difference between those and coertion or force and responsibility. We have a lot of words to distinguish between moral conditions, and we have a lot of reasons to use them. If you have clear cases of examples, I'm happy to see if we agree on them.

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KidTokyo
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My own belief is that rape has less to do with how men view women and more to do with how men view themselves. In particular, I view it as a consequence of male tribalism with its complete surrender to the logic of the brotherhood, which shuts down empathy for anyone outside of its circle. In this way, it is closely connected to other forms of violence and coercion used to maintain a particular power niche. I don't think it is in anyway caused by titillation or portrayals in the media.

I do not claim to have factual support for this.

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TomDavidson
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Everyone, do we agree that calling a woman a "bitch" for firmly declining your invitation to a date can be called part of "rape culture?"
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Pete at Home
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Yes. Same.applies if you call a.man a.bitch for.the same.reason, neh?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
" Which would be a good signal that you had just cause for dumping that person in the first place, if that have that poor a sense of boundaries."

Absolutely. And if that's what happened, your duty is to clarify your boundaries. You dont have.the right to just suck your thumb and require.the world to.read your mind.

Didn't she clarify her boundaries when she dumped him?
She clearly reset SOME boundaries. If he'd just walked up.to jer and kissed her, or.continued to tell others she was his girlfriend, THAT would be a violation of her explicit.will and all that stuff Pyr said.
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Pete at Home
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I think that what kids said is total rape-affirming bull****. In cultures and subcultures where rape is most rampant, Women as well as men uphold the rape culture. In the judge ordered rapes in India and Pakistan, and in the Western gang rapes fostered by facebook, we see women as well as men saying that the victim "deserved to be raped." And that is still the attitude that prevails in the United States towards Prison male rape, ie that male convicts deserve to be raped.
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Pete at Home
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1986, I'm.wiping blood off the knees of the victim of an attempted.rape.while.my roommate chases her assailant.down the street. I remember her repeating over.ansd over: "my mother is kill me." for.walking at.night alone. As if that made it her fault.

1983, high school. I'm watching Clockwork Orange.with friends i walk out at the rape.scene. aCathy Ryan, a senior, calls.me a.pussy. i say, i dont get how.anyone could.do that to another person. She says i'm too judgmental ... that some.guys just need.to.get it out of.their system, no big deal.

I remember living in a "rape culture." From my perspective, we've.come a long way, and babbling about phil.collins in the driveway fails.to.adress the truly poisonous things remaining in the culture.

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kmbboots
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Of course, but we still have a ways to go. Obviously.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Of course, but we still have a ways to go. Obviously.

Yes, obviously. But carping about driveways property rights as "fundamental" to the issue of rape, hardly tales us in the right direction.
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kmbboots
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Why do you think this is about the driveway? It is about the persistent notion that when a woman says no, she doesn't know her own mind and can be disregarded.
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Pete at Home
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You're the one who.is seco.d guessi.g her. She never.said no.about the driveway
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kmbboots
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Right. Because all he wanted was to stand in her driveway. That was his goal. Not a means to an end at all.
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Pete at Home
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So in Kate's world, a man needs a woman's approval over what he wants?

She never said he couldnt stand in her driveway and.serenade her. It seems to.be well received. It's Pyr who talks of her like aome weak.minded female who could.be compelled with a boom box tune.

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kmbboots
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I think you are still missing the point which isn't about the characters in the film but about the myth that the film perpetuates. That the woman in the film liked it is the problem.

[ August 19, 2014, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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Pete at Home
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I've broken up with a woman and then been talked into giving.things.another shot. It happens with many men and women. Not a.violation until you say no, dont ask again and.then they keep pushing. Seems.to.me.that some.people.are.using.the spectre.of.rape to bully others into changing the cultural boundaries rather than respecting reasonable.and.explicit boundaries.
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kmbboots
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What seem like reasonable boundaries to you might seem different on the other side of those boundaries. The problem is not specific situations but that people generalize those situations. Scarlett may have been giddy in love the morning after Rhett forced her to have sex but that doesn't mean that Joe Shmoe's wife is going to be. Before someone launches into "well everyone I know can tell fiction from reality" clearly everyone can't with those ideas that are so pervasive. If they could, we wouldn't have ex-boyfriends harrassing women thinking they are being romantic or men raping women thinking that she just doesn't know that she wants it. Of course, fiction isn't the whole of the problem, but those types of stories contribute to the idea that men can disregard women's stated wishes. And it works on women, too, leading us to further confuse the issue by following the same stupid, dangerous script.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
What seem like reasonable boundaries to you might seem different on the other side of those boundaries.

I'm annoyed by your pretentious disregard for what you were purporting to reply to. Please reread the post immediately preceding yours. What you fail to acknowledge that not everyone on one side of a boundary draws that boundary in precisely the same place. It's pretentious for you to assume that everyone that's ever been the object of unwanted advances shares your views about boom boxes and driveways. Boundaries and morees differ as much as standards about what is appropriate or modest.
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kmbboots
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Okay. What do you think those reasonable and explicit boundaries are that we should respect? And what do you think we lose by changing them?
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scifibum
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You (generic you) are the only one on your side of any boundary of the sort being discussed, I think.
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Pete at Home
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Kate, i have no problem.with your trying to change social boundaries in order to suit your tastes, so long as you are honest and dont violate.certain boundaries.of decency (e.g. trivializing rape) in order to do so.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
What seem like reasonable boundaries to you might seem different on the other side of those boundaries. The problem is not specific situations but that people generalize those situations. Scarlett may have been giddy in love the morning after Rhett forced her to have sex but that doesn't mean that Joe Shmoe's wife is going to be.

I absolutely agree that telling stories about joyous forced sex create an environment that encourages rape. Particularly as with Gone with the Wind, the story's written by a woman, about a woman, and marketed specifically towards women. "Giddy in love" smells to me of Stockholm syndrome.

But Rhett actually violated an explicit boundary, whereas Say Anything girl never told Cusack he couldn't play his stereo in her driveway.

quote:
Before someone launches into "well everyone I know can tell fiction from reality" clearly everyone can't with those ideas that are so pervasive.
I absolutely agree. But the fact that principle is true, doesn't mean that your application to Say anything isn't a grotesque misapplication.

quote:
If they could, we wouldn't have ex-boyfriends harrassing women thinking they are being romantic or men raping women thinking that she just doesn't know that she wants it.
I absolutely agree. But the fact that principle is true, doesn't mean that your application to Say anything isn't a grotesque misapplication.

quote:
Of course, fiction isn't the whole of the problem, but those types of stories contribute to the idea that men can disregard women's stated wishes.
I absolutely agree. But the fact that principle is true, doesn't mean that your application to Say anything isn't a grotesque misapplication.

quote:
And it works on women, too, leading us to further confuse the issue by following the same stupid, dangerous script.
Agreed etc.

My point is that we should set and respect clear boundaries, rather than expecting others to read our minds.

There's the story of a woman who had her mom over, and put her up in her own bed. Her husband comes home, late night, unknowingly crawls into bed with his mother in law. The next morning, husband sees his mother in law, freaks out, and the wife asks her mom why she didn't say anything. Reply: "I haven't said a word to that man in 10 years and I'm not about to start now!"

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
What seem like reasonable boundaries to you might seem different on the other side of those boundaries. The problem is not specific situations but that people generalize those situations. Scarlett may have been giddy in love the morning after Rhett forced her to have sex but that doesn't mean that Joe Shmoe's wife is going to be. Before someone launches into "well everyone I know can tell fiction from reality" clearly everyone can't with those ideas that are so pervasive. If they could, we wouldn't have ex-boyfriends harrassing women thinking they are being romantic or men raping women thinking that she just doesn't know that she wants it. Of course, fiction isn't the whole of the problem, but those types of stories contribute to the idea that men can disregard women's stated wishes. And it works on women, too, leading us to further confuse the issue by following the same stupid, dangerous script.

Well-said and agreed as to Gone With The Wind, which was published in 1936.

"Before someone launches into "well everyone I know can tell fiction from reality" clearly everyone can't with those ideas that are so pervasive."

You underestimate your fellow Ornerians. I absolutely agree with you that fiction creates a sense of OK-ness.

If you could show me any popular 21st century fiction in the USA where a woman gets raped and then falls in love, where this is portrayed as in Gone with the Wind, I'd strongly agree with you that there's a serious problem with a generalized rape culture in the USA.

While "scarlett doesn't really know what she wants" was a dominant and dangerous meme in the US in the 20th century, the more dangerous meme at this point is that "x deserves to be raped" which is the theme of ethnic rapes by Indians and Pakistanis, and also of white middle class facebook rapes, and of male prison rapes.

If you want to improve the culture, it behooves you to actually pay attention to the time and trends of your generations. Let's not focus on fighting memes that largely died with the cold war.

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Pyrtolin
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http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/01/feminist-guide-to-non-creepy-flirting/

A good baseline for where the line between persuasion and harassment is. While it's genes in the context of an initial approach, most elements continue to ally even once you're familiar with someone, and, in fact, become more important one you've built a degree of trust that can be abused.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
And could you blame her? If a woman says “I don’t want to give you my number,” and a guy badgers her into giving it to him, what’s to stop him from calling when she says “I don’t want you to call me anymore”? What’s to stop him from coming to her place when she says, “I don’t want to see you anymore”? If the first, small boundary is ignored, how will he handle the bigger ones?

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