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Author Topic: Gaza Blockade Question
velcro
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The reason most often given to justify Hamas attacks on Israel is that Israel is blockading Gaza, effectively imprisoning the residents.

Israel is blockading the Israeli border and the Mediterranean Sea. But Egypt is blockading the Egyptian border.

How do Hamas sympathizers explain the fact that Hamas is not firing on Egypt?

The obvious reasons are that Hamas is not trying to destroy Egypt but is trying to destroy Israel, and that Hamas knows that if they fire on Egypt, Egypt will respond ten times more harshly than Israel.

Neither of these are something Hamas sympathizers will admit to. So what arguments do they use? Has anyone in the MSM pointed out this discrepancy?

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philnotfil
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Hamas isn't allowed to use intelligent tactics?
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Greg Davidson
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What is the goal of the rocket attacks? It's not that one rocket will eventually hit a target, and then Israel surrenders. The rocket attacks are excellent at reinforcing the internal political position of Palestinian extremists. By provoking a disproportionate response by Israel, moderate Palestinians are undermined, and internal Palestinian schisms can be hidden beneath anger at Israel.

And, unlike Israel, most of the Egyptian population is far away from the range of rockets launched from Gaza.

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Pyrtolin
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Hamas can't use an Us vs Them narrative as well against Egyptian retaliation to fortify its power as it can against Israeli retaliation. It knows that it if can prod Israel into a response it can bolster its local political support due to the casualties of such a response.

Also, there's no question that Hamas is out to get Israel. The problem is generalizing that to the entire population of Gaza, when its support mostly comes from the being the only movement strong and organized enough to resist Israel- an impression that Israel helps perpetuate by continuing to act in a way that makes it believable that there is a need to fight back against its oppressive behaviors.

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Seneca
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It's not good PR for the liberal anti-Israeli media to point out that Egypt doesn't want anything to do with Hamas because that might make people start to question how nice Hamas really is when fellow Arabs are blocking their mutual borders.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
Hamas can't use an Us vs Them narrative as well against Egyptian retaliation to fortify its power as it can against Israeli retaliation. It knows that it if can prod Israel into a response it can bolster its local political support due to the casualties of such a response.

Also, there's no question that Hamas is out to get Israel. The problem is generalizing that to the entire population of Gaza, when its support mostly comes from the being the only movement strong and organized enough to resist Israel- an impression that Israel helps perpetuate by continuing to act in a way that makes it believable that there is a need to fight back against its oppressive behaviors.

What oppressive behaviors? Israel pulled out of Gaza and left the Arabs there alone until they started firing rockets, THEN Israel started the blockade. Throughout the years Israel has initiated several unilateral ceasefires when Hamas's rocket supply dried up and Israel kept leaving Gaza alone until Hamas started firing again. Every time there has been conflict between Hamas and Israel, Hamas started it. And Hamas IS the elected government of the Arabs in Gaza.
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velcro
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Phil,

I am sure Hamas uses intelligent tactics. But the possible justifications I can think of all make it very clear that the rocket attacks have nothing to do with the blockade (in contradiction to Hamas claims), or highlight the motives of Hamas (destruction of Israel) that make negotiation absurd. So no Hamas sympathizer will publicly acknowledge those intelligent but damning justifications.

My question is, for those who publicly say that the rocket attacks are to end the blockade, what about Egypt? Not even a single rocket into the Sinai, as a gesture, since Egypt has a significant role in the blockade?

On a tangent, Pyr, Israel is not attacking the entire population of Gaza. They are firing where the rockets are coming from, and warning civilians in a way that no other country does that I am aware of. And Israel is in a lose-lose situation - if they defend themselves, they increase support for Hamas because they are attacking Gaza. If they don't defend themselves, they increase support for Hamas by giving them a victory, not to mention Israeli citizens die. Hamas has the strategic advantage because they are perfectly willing to use their citizens as shields for their offensive weapons, and perfectly willing to kill as many "enemy" civilians as possible. Until the Palestinians and the world at large recognize that evil, Hamas will continue to be successful.

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
And Hamas IS the elected government of the Arabs in Gaza.
44% in a parliamentary election 8 years ago, later overcome by a coup that called oof all future elections
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Greg Davidson
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quote:
Pyr, Israel is not attacking the entire population of Gaza. They are firing where the rockets are coming from, and warning civilians in a way that no other country does that I am aware of.
I will assert that Israel is acting with a higher level of morality than leaders in Syria, ISIS, Hamas and even probably Iran and Egypt when you count number of government-sponsored killings (only caveat on the last two - not sure how it works out on a percentage basis). But I'd caveat the warnings - how many of the civilians killed had warnings? If it's only half, that still leaves hundreds of unwarned civilian casualties.
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Seneca
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What do you expect Israel to do? They warn whenever they can but if they don't have a phone number or way to contact people are they just supposed to sit there and watch rockets come from buildings and areas and do nothing to stop those launch sites?

Also, apparently some Israeli solders were killed today when they entered a booby trapped UN building. After the UN have rockets to Hamas and now that their buildings are Hamas launch sites as well as booby trapped, the UN should either pull out or declare war on Israel and take Hamas's side formally.

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Greg Davidson
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What did I expect Israel to do? Go after those who killed the three Israeli teenagers. Who knows, they might have even gotten some Palestinian cooperation (as been happening with some West Bank operations). Don't pretend that the boys were still kidnapped when the Netanyahu Administration knew they had already been killed, and don't use that pretense of a search for kidnappers to justify a program of mass arrests of Hamas members (because that will encourage the some of the worst of Hamas to start launching rockets in retaliation for the retaliation that Netanyahu said he was taking against Hamas in Gaza for the actions of a rogue group loosely affiliated with Hamas that committed the murders of the teenagers).
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AI Wessex
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I agree with Greg's comment. It's as if the kidnapping/murder gave Israel an opportunity to start a far broader military operation than was necessary.
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seagull
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quote:
kidnapping/murder gave Israel an opportunity to start a far broader military operation than was necessary.
I agree it created an opportunity to start an operation, what I do not understand is why you think that this operation was not necessary.

Israeli intelligence knew about at least some of the attack tunnels that are now being destroyed.
Since the infamous exchange of a single Israeli hostage (Gilad Shalit) for hundreds of terrorists with blood on their hands, there was an uneasy cease fire between Israel and Hamas in which Hamas kept digging tunnels and Israel did nothing because there were no new kidnappings.

By calling for more kidnappings on public media and authorizing the kidnapping of the three boys, Hamas crossed a red line. Since then Hamas has repeatedly used these tunnels for the purpose they were created - attempt to murder and kidnap more Israelis.

The broader military operation is more than necessary. There is no other choice.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Israeli intelligence knew about at least some of the attack tunnels that are now being destroyed.
Destroying them would have been an appropriate and proportional response. The situation has gotten out of hand now, so it's hard to propose what the next steps should be. The cease fire is necessary but it may only give Hamas a chance to regroup for whatever comes next.
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seagull
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AI Wessex:
quote:
The cease fire is necessary
What #@&#! cease fire?

When reporters in southern Israel first said "Hamas has agreed to a cease fire but here the fire never ceases" the sarcasm was funny.

It stopped being funny a long time ago. There have been so many cease fire announcements that it's tiring. The radio keeps reminding people not to believe any cease fire announcements. People who believed in the cease fire announcements and went out got killed or injured.

"Cease fire" is Hamas' way to try and convince Israeli civilians to go out and live a normal life (more than 15 seconds away from the nearest bomb shelter). Hamas is "agreeing" to a cease fire almost every day to make it more likely that Israeli civilians will get killed by their next missile.

What on Earth (or under it) do you think the words "cease fire" mean that makes it so "necessary"?

In the long run the civilians in Gaza will be better off if Hamas is destroyed. If anyone cares about Palestinian civilians more than Israel does, let them come and clean up the hornets nest in Gaza.

Otherwise shut up and let the IDF do it's job.

[ August 01, 2014, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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quote:
Egypt is blockading the Egyptian border.
Fighting today has been right next to the border. Refugees are streaming towards the border and Egypt is not letting them through.

They have their reasons. Egypt's main population centers may not be within range of Hamas' rockets but they have lost many soldiers to Hamas terrorists and they do not want to take the risk.

I wish they had more compassion on the civilians in Gaza, but I can't say I blame them for being careful.

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
By calling for more kidnappings on public media and authorizing the kidnapping of the three boys, Hamas crossed a red line. Since then Hamas has repeatedly used these tunnels for the purpose they were created - attempt to murder and kidnap more Israelis.

The broader military operation is more than necessary. There is no other choice

Seagull, what if Hamas did not authorize the killings?

quote:
As far as is known, the Hamas leadership in Gaza was not part of the chain of command behind the abduction, carried out by a Hamas cell from Hebron on July 12.
link from haaretz

quote:
When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, Israeli officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all. (Update: The comments from the Israeli spokesperson in question indicate that the group thought to be responsible, a "lone cell," may not have been under direct orders from Hamas's leadership, but was loosely affiliated with the group. The headline of this post has been changed to reflect that discrepancy. See below for more.)

link

Add to that another piece of misinformation that was also used to intentionally escalate the crisis: the Netanyahu Administration knew early on that the 3 boys had been murdered, not kidnapped. But they used the story of an ongoing kidnapping as justification for an effort to arrest over 400 men affiliated with Hamas.

The problem with extremists who promote conflict for their own domestic political ends is that once you start the fear/anger/hatred, it's hard to stop. That's why only 3% of the Russian population believe that the Russian separatists shot down the Malaysian Airlines plane - once war fever hits, there's a strong tendency to accept every claim that fits within your favored narrative and discard any opposing information. So I expect that even if you now accept that the initial basis for the escalation was false (Hamas in Gaza did not order the murder of the boys), that won't matter because you have enough new stories to feed the fear/anger/hatred.

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Seneca
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Was Hamas doing anything else before the kidnappings?
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Greg Davidson
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I am sure that some members of Hamas were performing evil actions (although it is notable that the rocket attacks had fallen dramatically in 2013 and 2014 - but not to zero - up to the time when Netanyahu started arresting members of Hamas as part of the search for kidnappers.
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Seneca
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So you concede they were shooting rockets before the Israeli investigation and offensive?

How do you think the US would react if the government of Mexico started firing rockets at Texas border towns?

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D.W.
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By letting the Texans deal with it and turn a blind eye.
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Greg Davidson
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Seneca, Mexico is a country in ways that Gaza is not. A better analogy would be what we would do if a subset of the Mexican population (for example, drug lords) found it in their interest to commit acts of violence that murdered several Americans. Would you see these murders as justifying the use of US military attacks on residential areas of Mexico where people affiliated with the drug lords may be resident?
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Seneca
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There is no state inside Mexico where the Cartels are the elected government. Your analogy fails. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Try and mitigate by saying how old the election was, or that Hamas only got 44%, but it's true.
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Greg Davidson
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Seneca, I am unpersuaded by your "but it's true" argument.
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kmbboots
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Imagine how desperate people must be to "elect" Hamas to protect them and fight for them.
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seagull
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quote:
even if you now accept that the initial basis for the escalation was false (Hamas in Gaza did not order the murder of the boys)
I am well aware of the fact that Israeli politicians spin things to justify their agendas. I never believed that your "initial basis" strawman of accusing Hamas was true especially since even the spin (even at the beginning) did not claim that the Hamas political leadership "ordered" the kidnapping.

There are some things that are clear however and are not being denied by anyone (expect Hamas social media activists):

A. Hamas has several factions designed specifically to provide their "political" leadership with "plausible deniability".

B. Hamas cells are compartmentalized
quote:
The smallest elements of terrorist organizations are the cells that serve as building blocks for the terrorist organization. One of the primary reasons for a cellular or compartmentalized structure is security. The compromise or loss of one cell should not compromise the identity, location, or actions of other cells. A cellular organizational structure makes it difficult for an adversary to penetrate the entire organization. Personnel within one cell are often unaware of the existence of other cells and, therefore, cannot divulge sensitive information to infiltrators.
C. Hamas cells receive their orders through the media

D. The Hamas political wing called for kidnappings in the media just before the three boys were kidnapped.

E. Hamas supporters were celebrating the kidnappings in the streets. Hamas leadership and media called Mahmoud Abbas a traitor for criticizing the kidnapping.

quote:
So I expect that even if you now accept that the initial basis for the escalation was false (Hamas in Gaza did not order the murder of the boys), that won't matter because you have enough new stories to feed the fear/anger/hatred.
So I expect that even if you now accept that the initial basis for the escalation was true (Hamas did order the kidnapping of the boys - it just failed and turned out to be a murder and Israel does not release murderers from prison in return for bodies) , that won't matter because you have enough preconceived notions to ignore the real danger that Hamas' fear/anger/hatred poses.

[ August 02, 2014, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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quote:
Imagine how desperate people must be to "elect" Hamas to protect them and fight for them.
Imagine how desperate people must feel to put in place a directive like the Hannibal Directive
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Greg Davidson
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seagull, even stipulating your A-E listing of assertions about how this was all a Hamas plot, you still don't address some basic issues.

What was the goal of the kidnapping/killing of the 3 boys? It seems as if that action forced an escalation and empowered the extremists on both sides (even you note how Abbas got weakened by taking a position opposing the escalating move). So isn't that all consistent with the assertion that this war is what the kidnappers wanted? That there are elements on both sides that prefer conflict to peace. That the Palestinians are not one undifferentiated mass of Hamas-supporters. And that Israel has contributed to the achievement of the goals of the murderers of those boys by not in fact targeting those actually responsible, but instead attacking others, and killing well over a thousand people who did not commit the acts that were used as justification for the violence.

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Seneca
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It's not just the kidnappings... you keep forgetting the rockets.
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Hannibal
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Hi guys, just a quick question, inquisitive mostly.

Since 09/11/2001, how many cease fire agreements did the USA had with Al Qaeda ?

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Greg Davidson
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Agreed, it's not just the kidnappings, the rockets also need to be considered. Rocket attacks had fallen to historically low (but not zero) levels in 2013 and 2014 prior to this escalation.

Then Netanyahu (a) falsely claimed that the 3 boys were still held kidnapped, (b) falsely claimed that the kidnappings were performed at the direction of Hamas leadership in Gaza, and (c) combined these two flawed assertions as justification for Israelis arresting 400 Palestinians affiliated with Hamas. It was following the mass arrests that Palestinian extremists dramatically increased the rocket attacks.

All who contributed to the unnecessary escalation deserve culpability in proportion to their actions.

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Seneca
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More than 400 should have been arrested for the continuous rocket attacks that never stopped. I can't imagine the US leaving any AL Qaeda alive or uncaptured if they knew where they were. We invaded Afghanistan to get at Al Qaeda. Israel should invade Gaza and capture/kill all Hamas there. Yes it risks creating more but the alternative is just sit there and be rocketed constantly until the end of time.

At least with a major offensive there's a CHANCE to kill off Hamas. In the current scenario Hamas goes on forever.

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seagull
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quote:
What was the goal of the kidnapping/killing of the 3 boys? It seems as if that action forced an escalation and empowered the extremists on both sides ... So isn't that all consistent with the assertion that this war is what the kidnappers wanted?
I agree, it is exactly what Hamas wanted (and still wants) when they called for the kidnapping of the 3 boys as well as the kidnapping of the soldier which demonstrated (intentionally) how futile it is to negotiate with Hamas.
quote:
there are elements on both sides that prefer conflict to peace.
I agree that there are elements on both sides that prefer escalation to a so called "cease fire".

Even the overwhelming majority of Israelis who prefer peace to conflict are not blind. When conflict is forced on us we prefer to end it as soon as possible and in a decisive way that will give peace a chance at least in the future.

quote:
Palestinians are not one undifferentiated mass of Hamas-supporters
Even the most right wing Israelis recognize that and state it as part of their platform. They just happen to believe that winning the conflict with Hamas is the best thing not only for Israel but for the Palestinians who quietly oppose Hamas.

Some Palestinians are even brave enough to beg their friends in Israel to go on with the operation in Gaza and exterminate Hamas so they can live in peace.

quote:
Israel has contributed to the achievement of the goals of the murderers of those boys
In a culture where blood feuds and vendetta are linked to honor, every death whether innocent or not will escalate the violence. Israel is not part of that culture but over the last century has learned to live with it and within it by balancing deterrence with formal reconciliation treaties (which in Arab tradition are much more civilized than European or American standards).


quote:
not in fact targeting those actually responsible, but instead attacking others, and killing well over a thousand people who did not commit the acts that were used as justification for the violence.
What part of the phrase "human shield" do you fail to understand? Israel is targeting schools because that is where the rockets being fired at us are stored. Israel is targeting ambulances because that is how Hamas activists transport the rockets. Israel is targeting hospitals because that is where the rocket are launched from.

Hamas terrorists drive ambulances filled with rockets to hospital where the rocket launcher is waiting to fire them at Israel. When that terrorist is killed he is reported as an "innocent civilian" because he was driving an ambulance. That is how the accusation of "killing well over a thousand people who did not commit the acts" come about.

Why do you choose to purposely ignore the reports about these acts that justify Israel's actions?

I expect that they do not matter to you because "you have enough preconceived notions to ignore the real danger" that Hamas' fear/anger/hatred poses.

[ August 03, 2014, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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I may not agree with Netanyahu's political goal. I may think he is a liar in many other instances. But that does not absolve Greg from culpability for falsely accusing Netanyahu of things that he did not do.

quote:
Then Netanyahu (a) falsely claimed that the 3 boys were still held kidnapped, (b) falsely claimed that the kidnappings were performed at the direction of Hamas leadership in Gaza, and (c) combined these two flawed assertions as justification for Israelis arresting 400 Palestinians affiliated with Hamas.
(a) There was no conclusive evidence that the boys were dead at the time when Netanyahu "claimed that the boys were still kidnapped". In fact his statements made it clear that while it was not known whether they are still alive Israel would do anything in it's power to free them IF they were.

Greg's accusation is FALSE and he is culpable for making that accusation.

(b) There is no dispute that the unsuccessful kidnap attempt that ended up in murder was done by a Hamas cell. The family of the kidnappers/murders even boasted about being proud of what they did. Hamas could have easily prevented the escalation by using the media to order all cells to release them (or their bodies) to prevent suffering on both sides. Instead they used the media to call Abbas a traitor for doing so.

(c) the justification for arresting 400 Palestinians affiliated with Hamas has nothing to do with the flawed strawman Greg presents as a combination of two assertions that are not flawed themselves.

Hamas violated the understanding reached in 2012 which resulted in relative quiet on both sides for about a year and a half. Not only did they violate these understandings they signaled their wish to escalate the conflict by issuing public orders to kidnap Israelis. Hamas refused to negotiate and made outrageous announcements that they will not negotiate for the release of the kidnapped boys and that Israel will have to PAY just for information about whether kidnapped Israelis are alive or dead.

The justification for arresting all Hamas activists is that under those conditions, it was only a matter of time before other cells would try to kidnap and murder more Israelis. Arresting all Hamas cells and all potential members in their chain of command and infrastructure which allows the kidnappers to hide) was clearly justified by that situation alone.

quote:
All who contributed to the unnecessary escalation deserve culpability in proportion to their actions.
The distorted views presented by Greg is itself contributing to the escalation by encouraging Hamas to continue using human shields because as Greg is so effectively demonstrating - "IT WORKS".

At times like this, the only place for a moral person to be is to "stand with Israel". Even Arab nations like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia recognize that Hamas is the common enemy of all peace loving people in the Middle East (including first and foremost the Palestinians themselves).

Greg's unwitting contribution to the unnecessary escalation deserves "culpability in proportion to [his] actions".

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Greg Davidson
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seagull,

I could start to agree with you if you could address some of the information that I raised. For example, in the specific quote and citation I provided above - do you accept the following as true, or do you have contrary evidence?
quote:
"The comments from the Israeli spokesperson in question indicate that the group thought to be responsible, a "lone cell," may not have been under direct orders from Hamas's leadership, but was loosely affiliated with the group.
Show me that my understanding of the facts are wrong, and I will change my views. But is sounds like even the Israeli position is consistent with what I have read, which is that the murders were carried out by a group that was not under direct control of Hamas (and thus the murders likely were not ordered by Hamas, Hamas did not have the power to use "the media to order all cells to release them", and if Hamas did not have control of the murderers, then it is not outrageous that they were unable to negotiate).

A major part of your position requires the group that murdered the three boys to be under the control of Hamas in Gaza. My best understanding is that even Israel now acknowledges that was not the case. Can you show me contrary information that outweighs the current preponderance of evidence? Or will you adjust your position in light of the evidence that undermines several of your central arguments?

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
At times like this, the only place for a moral person to be is to "stand with Israel". Even Arab nations like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia recognize that Hamas is the common enemy of all peace loving people in the Middle East (including first and foremost the Palestinians themselves)
At times like this, a moral person is required to make judgments about the actions committed by all parties, and to draw conclusions based on fair principles of justice. My reading of Tanakh does not place loyalty to Jews leaders ruling in Israel as a higher moral value than the level of ethical behavior.

As I said earlier, if it is time to choose sides, I am opposed to the side that promotes violent conflict, that has an ideology of killing the other side whether through evil Hamas principles to destroy the state of Israel or the evil principles of some extremist Israelis regarding the need to "mow the lawn" every few years. In this instance, and in the aftermath of a Fatah-Hamas reconciliation brought about by failed peace talks, the Netanyahu Administration choose to unjustly hold a bunch of Hamas people (and hundreds of innocent civilians) in Gaza morally responsible for a crime that they did not commit. What principle of justice do you believe that he followed in choosing this action?

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Seneca
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Until Hamas ceases to be a terrorist organization, which won't happen anytime this century, there is never an unjust circumstance where they are being held prisoner. Every member of Hamas SHOULD be killed or arrested. They have vowed to exterminate Jews, destroy Israel and they act on it all the time.
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Greg Davidson
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Seneca, you make a valid point that is worth discussing in terms of both moral and practical consequences. Does membership in a terrorist organization provide a moral basis both for arrest and legal killing? And would you apply this standard to all people with equivalent levels of membership in organizations that are deemed terrorist? And do you have a valid way of determining membership in terrorist organizations to avoid the risk of unjustly killing someone by mistake? For example, a 2009 Haaretz story accused Israeli politician Avigdor Lieberman of past membership in Kach, a terrorist group - but it would not be just to kill someone merely based on an allegation in a newspaper. So what standard of proof would you use before essentially enacting a death penalty. Would you have a consistent position regarding voting behavior? If someone had voted once for Hamas, would that make them a member of a terrorist organization? Would you hold the same standard for far right parties in Israeli that have subsequently been deemed terrorist? If you use the same standards to judge behavior, then at a minimum you are offering a fair statement of moral beliefs.

In practical terms, the question is whether this set of actions provides net benefit. I don't see the case for why this escalation has helped the overall security of Israel. With the clear hostility between Egypt and Hamas, the distractions from Israeli/Palestinian conflict due to far worse violence in Syria and with ISIS, I believe that this was a rare opportunity for Israel to exploit Palestinian (and Arab) factions to isolate Hamas. Instead, it was the Netanyahu government that instead choose to escalate a murder by a fringe group in the West Bank into a conflict with high civilian casualties in Gaza. Even if you could get beyond the moral problems with "mowing the lawn" (which I can't), in practical terms this approach has led to increased Israeli casualties, and it is likely to increase risks going into the future.

[ August 03, 2014, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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Seneca
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You raise some interesting points Greg. There's a difference between hunting for terrorists in war zones and hunting for them in civilized, peaceful areas. In Gaza it's fairly easy to identify terrorists as many of them wear markings that reference their Hamas membership and carry weapons and bombs. Also, since they are the government there any government employee is easily identified as well.

The only way to get a longterm peace is for Israel to invade Gaza and kill all Hamas members, otherwise Israel is facing an eternity of suicide bombers and rockets.

[ August 03, 2014, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
The only way to get a longterm peace is for Israel to invade Gaza and kill all Hamas members, otherwise Israel is facing an eternity of suicide bombers and rockets.
In practical terms, killing all Hamas members (including, by your definition, everyone in any government job) is unlikely to bring about longterm peace. After all, Hamas was a partially Israeli-funded alternative to the PLO at one point in time. The name of the group may matter less than the number of people motivated to extremism, and that quantity can be affected by the tactics that Israel chooses to pursue. This may be a problem that is not practical to kill your way out of.
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