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Author Topic: Gaza Blockade Question
Seneca
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Pete, it's pretty clear that people who keep defending Hamas or trying to equate Hamas to Israel or saying both are at fault are purposefully ignoring the fact that Hamas is a racist organization that wants to ethnically cleanse Jews from Israel.

Just the other day Jimmy Carter wrote an op ed that said the US should redesignate Hamas as a "legitimate political actor" in the region instead of classifying them as a terrorist group! This is the insanity of the people claiming Hamas is justified in their actions or that Israel isn't justified. They are defending literal Islamo-Nazis!

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Pete at Home
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Whether a group is a legitimate actor has nothing to do with whether their.methods are terroristic.
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Seneca
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Yes it does. We're not supposed to negotiate with terrorists or recognize them as a legit political body. We're supposed to wipe them out. If it was Al Qaeda in the Gaza Strip we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
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NobleHunter
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Pretending Israel does no wrong is as wrongheaded as ignoring the goals and methods of Hamas.

ETA: On that definition the IDF recognizes Hamas as a legitimate actor. They've said they could wipeout Hamas but they aren't.

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Seneca
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Only because the rest of the world plus pressuring them not to. If this were the US and Al Qaeda and we had trapped Al Qaeda in a piece of land this size that they were ruling, we'd probably bomb it into dust and call it a day. Or at least Harry Truman would.
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NobleHunter
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Or we could go with their stated reason that they prefer to have a single authority in Gaza to deal with.
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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Pretending Israel does no wrong is as wrongheaded as ignoring the goals and methods of Hamas.

Who pretends Israel does no wrong? Not even the Israeli's do that, which is why they make arrests of their own citizens for crimes (rather than hold them up as matyr's and heros) and why they often have investigations where their attacks lead to civilian casualties.

But believing that Israel is justified is not the same thing as pretending they do no wrong. Nor is acknowledging that Hamas commits war crimes somehow unfair.

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Greg Davidson
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Hey, brief access to internet from Chicago.

Let me reiterate that I have never defended Hamas, they are an evil organization. But I don't think the response was effective. First, if Hamas was not responsible for the original kidnapping and murder, it's not a good idea to use that as a rationale for escalating (the latest I have heard on the confession of one of the killers is that it may have been given in response to torture, and it still may not be conclusive regarding the link between Hamas leadership and the particular evil act in question - still too early to discern the truth)

I also note that Egypt took some actions that were effective against tunnels that did not. Require the same level of civilian casualties as the actions that Israel took, and those also should have been considered.

Let me also respond to something a few days ago, when I said that at this point the best thing that Netanyahu could do was pull troops out, and someone said something like "see! he did just what you said"', I have to agree that he did the right thing. I have no problem praising Netanyahu for doing good things, just as I have no problem criticizing him for doing what I think is wrong.

[ August 07, 2014, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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Hannibal
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Yes well Greg, Egypt is also not the target of 10,000 rockets.

I am willing to bet that Egypt would have shown much less restrain than Israel if they were the targets of rockets.

Also, Egypt shut down the tunnels easily, because those were different types of tunnels. they were "supply" tunnels, the Egyptian regime knew exactly where they are because of all the supplies coming through them 24/7 and where turning a blind eye. while the tunnels to Israel are terror tunnels - hidden by definition.

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seagull
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quote:
the latest I have heard on the confession of one of the killers is that it may have been given in response to torture, and it still may not be conclusive regarding the link between Hamas leadership and the particular evil act in question - still too early to discern the truth
The kidnapper's mother said she is proud of what she did, the whole clan is affiliated with Hamas and they received funding from Hamas!

Talk about not being able to see through preconceived notions!

I am starting to wonder if Greg's earlier questions about "how many suicide bombers alive today ..." was an intentional attempt to produce skewed statistics that support his preconceived notions.

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seagull
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quote:
I also note that Egypt took some actions that were effective against tunnels that did not. Require the same level of civilian casualties as the actions that Israel took, and those also should have been considered.
Yeah, Egypt's action that was so effective against tunnels was using bulldozers to tear down whole neighborhoods near the border and reduce them to rubble. When Egypt does it indiscriminately (collective punishment) nobody complains.

Israel tries to focus the destruction on buildings that are used to store or launch weapons and houses of known terrorists that are also used as command and control headquarters for attacks on Israel.

If Israel were to take the same actions taken by Egypt, Greg would be calling the Israelis taking those actions "evil extremists" and distancing himself from them as a moderate "righteous" peace loving Jew.

The fact that Greg suggested taking those actions himself would be irrelevant. He has an inalienable right to his preconceived notions and no facts are going to stand in his way.

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seagull
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quote:
The problem I have with the balcony analogy is that it presumes that the guy on the balcony just started shooting for no reason. It gives no context for why the guy on the balcony is willing to risk himself and his child. Until that is at least addressed you are going to be shooting children on that balcony forever.
The guy on the balcony is making it very clear why he is shooting and what he wants. He wants the blockade lifted. His children's nursery is running out of bullets and they can't train the children without live ammunition. The chemistry lab in his brother's high school had three years supply of explosives yesterday but they seem to have disappeared and they can't do any more "experiments". He also demands that the police stop interfering with the tunnels that his uncle is digging into the nearby banks and jails and that the uncle will be compensated for all the cement that was destroyed in the police raid.

He says that he will continue shooting until all his demands are met.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Yes it does. We're not supposed to negotiate with terrorists or recognize them as a legit political body.

Gibberish, Seneca.

Not negotiating with terrorists is supposed to mean that we don't negotiate with someone in the act of conducting terror against us, e.g. holding our kids hostage, etc.

You're using it as a status identification, i.e. that certain persons are terrorists and can't be negotiated with even as members of a representative government.

We negotiated with the IRA, and encouraged the UK to do the same. That's OK so long as the IRA isn't saying, give us this peace treaty or we'll firebomb another schoolbus.

Carter is wrong to assert that political legitimacy makes Hamas tactics less terroristic, and you're just as wrong to assert that Hamas terrorism means that we can't morally negotiate with them.

At the present time, I think it's more productive to kill their leaders than negotiate with them, but that might change in the future.

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Greg Davidson
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Seagull, you are the one who made the absurd reference to suicide bombers, not me. I was discussing the population of Gaza today, and your response was "Many of the Hamas Militants, terrorists, and suicide bombers are under 26 years of age which means that they were unable to vote in 2006"

You are the one who declared many people guilty of an evil crime that they clearly did not commit. I made the reference not in attempt to produce skewed statistics, but to point out that you are making arguments based on clear and undeniably flawed assertions (if you disagree, please explain why you referred to suicide bombers in a description of the current population, particularly in a discussion of the 250,000 or so who voted for Hamas and the 1,350,000 or so who did not.

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Greg Davidson
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Seagull, when you make assertions about what I would do, you are wrong. And it shows that you are not really listening to what I write. I suggest you don't make up things about how I would respond. I've put 3000+ comments here - If you can't find an example of me exhibiting behavior that you can cite, don't make accusations based on a hypothetical
iCal about what I would do.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Yes it does. We're not supposed to negotiate with terrorists or recognize them as a legit political body.

Gibberish, Seneca.

Not negotiating with terrorists is supposed to mean that we don't negotiate with someone in the act of conducting terror against us, e.g. holding our kids hostage, etc.

You're using it as a status identification, i.e. that certain persons are terrorists and can't be negotiated with even as members of a representative government.

We negotiated with the IRA, and encouraged the UK to do the same. That's OK so long as the IRA isn't saying, give us this peace treaty or we'll firebomb another schoolbus.

Carter is wrong to assert that political legitimacy makes Hamas tactics less terroristic, and you're just as wrong to assert that Hamas terrorism means that we can't morally negotiate with them.

At the present time, I think it's more productive to kill their leaders than negotiate with them, but that might change in the future.

No. If we negotiate with Hamas in rewards them for all their years of terrorism. Maybe if they stopped and truly transformed into something else, but I doubt that will happen.
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seagull
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Greg, I stand behind my original statement: "Many of the Hamas Militants, terrorists, and suicide bombers are under 26 years of age which means that they were unable to vote in 2006".

Nowhere in that statement did I try to count the number of "suicide bombers alive today". That gem was in your response to my statement.

Greg:
quote:
Of those 790,000 under 26 years old, how many of them alive today have committed terrorist acts including suicide bombings?
Are you going to claim that I put these words in your mouth somehow?
Are you going to try and pretend that this was not done in the context of trying to collect statistics?
Are you going to pretend that using the "number of suicide bombers alive today" would not have produced skewed statistics?

I am really curious to see how you will try to wiggle out of this one.

[ August 08, 2014, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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NobleHunter
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quote:
No. If we negotiate with Hamas in rewards them for all their years of terrorism. Maybe if they stopped and truly transformed into something else, but I doubt that will happen.
Sometimes you need to treat people better than they deserve so that they can become people who deserve it.

Also, if you can't wipeout Hamas without a bunch of lunatics running wild, the only options are ignoring them or negotiating. Even if they won't negotiate in good faith, it at least buys time for some other solution.

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seagull
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Israel has the right to kill suicide bombers and terrorists BEFORE they commit their crimes.

Suggesting that a person who wears an explosive belt and advances on an Israeli Soldier is an "innocent civilian" or otherwise counting them as part of the "good guys" because they would have voted for the Islamic Jihad and against Hamas is a recipe for disaster.

If Israel actually followed the strategies suggested by Greg there would be no Israelis alive today but the truely innocent people in Gaza would be no better off. Take a look at what is going on in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Libya for just a few examples. Hamas would be using children as human shields against their new enemies even if all Israelis were dead.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Yes it does. We're not supposed to negotiate with terrorists or recognize them as a legit political body.

Gibberish, Seneca.

Not negotiating with terrorists is supposed to mean that we don't negotiate with someone in the act of conducting terror against us, e.g. holding our kids hostage, etc.

You're using it as a status identification, i.e. that certain persons are terrorists and can't be negotiated with even as members of a representative government.

We negotiated with the IRA, and encouraged the UK to do the same. That's OK so long as the IRA isn't saying, give us this peace treaty or we'll firebomb another schoolbus.

Carter is wrong to assert that political legitimacy makes Hamas tactics less terroristic, and you're just as wrong to assert that Hamas terrorism means that we can't morally negotiate with them.

At the present time, I think it's more productive to kill their leaders than negotiate with them, but that might change in the future.

No. If we negotiate with Hamas in rewards them for all their years of terrorism.
Well no; it would reward them for running for election, and for behaving just a little bit like a rational government. It's not quite like negotiating with Islamic Jihad. Besides, isn't Israel already dealing with Hamas?
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Greg Davidson
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Seagull

It is a little hard for me to cut and paste since I am on an iPad which I almost never use, but I went back and looked. You were the first person in this conversation to include the absurd reference to suicide bombers being alive today. If I had done it first, I would have apologized for the obviously flawed assertion. I see where there is a slight misunderstanding, I was talking of the total population and your response was not in terms of the numbers I had laid out but rather in terms of a count that 900 of the 1800 killed were militants. Even if we accept the number as accurate (and I presume it was from sources that are trusted by you)), the limited reference you give has no indication that any of the "militants" were terrorists or suicide bombers. It just indicated that they were combat casualties. Maybe for you anyone who figs against the IDF is automatically a terrorist (and maybe a potential suicide bomber, I still don't see the basis why you choose to introduce that term into this discussion), but I believe it is wrong to make such assertions without substantiation.

The issue of the right to kill suicide bombers in advance of heir crimes is valid if you are certain that they will commit such crimes. The US Administration under Bush believe that there was enough certainty of the imminent threat from Iraq to start a preemptive war. The problem comes when you are wrong. That's why the Bush Administration concept of preemptive war has not caught on.

If Israel had followed. The strategies that I suggested,vey might well be closer to eliminating support for Hamas and other extremists by aligning internal Palestinian and Arab animosity towards Hamas. Instead, they have managed to align Palestinians and Arab leaders to increase their support for Hamas. Relatively speaking, Hamas is weak right now (given the situation in Egypt) and I can still hope for the long shot that these tactics work (and then Israeli public opinion is able to pivot to a more sustainable policy afterwards) but I think it highly unlikely. Most likely scenario is that the extremists all get a political boost that lasts at least another 5 years or so, at which point the demographics west of the Jordan river. Will be majority Palestinian, and Israel will face even more starkly the choices of being Jewish or democratic

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velcro
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Greg and seagull,

I respect both of you and consider you to be among the most reasonable of Ornerians. In the interest of keeping this civil, I humbly make the following suggestions:

seagull,
Please don't assume the worst about Greg. He is viewing this in the most careful, thoughtful way possible. That sometimes has the result that he has not yet reached the same conclusion you see as inevitable. He does not disagree, but insists that there is not enough data to be fully convinced.

Greg,
Sometimes, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, you don't need to wait until the DNA tests come in. There is significant evidence that Hamas had some responsibility in the kidnapping, and they clearly supported it after the fact. It's not like they have never done this before. Simply admitting that it is likely would go a long way.

And with all due respect, I don't think you have provided a viable alternative to how Israel should respond when rockets are fired at their civilians, with support from the Gaza government. A government, by the way, whose goal is to destroy Israel and kill Jews.

I hope I have not offended either of you, and that I have not mischaracterized either of your statements or views.

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velcro
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kmbboots wrote
quote:
I don't know? How long do you stay living under occupation? The problem I have with the balcony analogy is that it presumes that the guy on the balcony just started shooting for no reason. It gives no context for why the guy on the balcony is willing to risk himself and his child. Until that is at least addressed you are going to be shooting children on that balcony forever.
Right back to the OP. Why is Hamas firing rockets at Israel?

km, please answer this question: Do you think firing largely ineffective rockets at civilians is going to make Israel drop the blockade?

And another one: If Israel dropped the blockade, would the rocket firing frequency and accuracy increase or decrease? Keep in mind the goal of Hamas as an organization.

Last one: How long would the blockade last if Hamas recognized Israel and provably demilitarized? I'll answer that one for you - about 30 seconds after the last large offensive weapon was handed over or destroyed.

So please tell me -why is Hamas firing rockets at Israel?

ETA: Correction - they are not under occupation. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. They are under blockade, largely to prevent entry of weapons and tunnel-building materials which are used against Israel.

[ August 08, 2014, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: velcro ]

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LetterRip
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quote:
They are under blockade, largely to prevent entry of weapons and tunnel-building materials which are used against Israel.
The blockade doesn't just block 'tunnel building materials' but all construction material, which has caused unemployment to skyrocket.

The formula for terrorism is unemployment + real or perceived grievance + socialization with terrorism group member.

With the blockade they have created probably 100,000 potential new terrorists due to the massive surge in unemployment from the lack of construction materials.

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velcro
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LetterRip,

All true. A valid approach is to invest in Gaza and do whatever is reasonable to increase employment. Hopefully in a year or two, assuming corruption and incitement against Israel in Gaza ceases completely, the support for terrorism will decline.

What should Israel do right now, while the missiles are landing on Israeli houses? Stop them or do nothing with any short term impact?

ETA: Of course, just about any building material is "dual use" for building tunnels, so the distinction is minimal.

[ August 08, 2014, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: velcro ]

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LetterRip
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ETA - edited to add - for others of you who were wondering why velcro was giving us an estimated time of arrival [Smile]

velcro,

I'm not really sure what should be done. I'd definitely support targeted assassination teams - but not sure if they could safely get the teams out afterwards.

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Pete at Home
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So kate, does a triple genocide and a nuclear war still sounds like one more day at the office?
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seagull
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quote:
if you can't wipeout Hamas without a bunch of lunatics running wild, the only options are ignoring them or negotiating. Even if they won't negotiate in good faith, it at least buys time for some other solution.
Ignoring them and negotiating are indeed two options. Luckily they are not the ONLY options.

Other options include:
* What Egypt did in Rafah (buldoze the area indiscriminantly).
* Killing anyone stupid enough to stay in Gaza after we give them a fair warning and an opportunity to leave and become part of the overall Middle East refugee problem
* Deterrence, hit them 100 times as hard as they hit us every time they try. There is no need and no point in negotiating.

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seagull
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quote:
The formula for terrorism is unemployment + real or perceived grievance + socialization with terrorism group member.
After Oslo, Israeli businesses opened factories at the border with Gaza that allowed palestinian workers to be employed without entering Israel (thus eliminating the security threat from potential suicide bombers). Hamas, as LR correctly point out, viewed this as a threat and reacted accordingly.

* Before they got control of Gaza they attacked the factories to scare people (both employers and employees) away.
* When they took over Gaza, they forcibly stopped employees from getting to the factories.

Those factories were shut down and the businesses started using Jordanian Labor instead.

The likelihood of anyone investing in this kind of program again is very small when Hamas deliberately keeps Palestinians from reaching the border even to get medical treatment
quote:

Then there’s the shortage of medical care, as Gaza’s hospitals were reportedly overwhelmed by the influx of Palestinian casualties. To relieve this pressure, Israel allowed some Palestinians into Israel for treatment and also set up a field hospital on the Gaza border. But throughout the war, the field hospital stood almost empty–which Israel says is because Hamas deliberately kept Palestinians from using it.

Many pundits dismiss this claim, insisting there were simply no Palestinians who wanted to go there. That, however, is highly implausible. Gazans routinely seek treatment in Israel because it offers better medical care than Gaza does; as one Gazan said in 2012, “It is obvious that people come to Israel for medical treatment, regardless of the political conflict.” Even Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh sends his family to Israel for treatment; over the past two years, Israel has treated both his granddaughter and his sister’s husband. So while some Palestinians undoubtedly objected to accepting help from the enemy, it’s hard to believe there weren’t also Palestinians who simply wanted the best possible care for their loved ones, and would gladly have accepted it from Israel had they not feared retaliation from a group with no qualms about shooting dissenters.


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seagull
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Greg are you actually trying to deny that you posted this quote (boldface added):
quote:
Of those 790,000 under 26 years old, how many of them alive today have committed terrorist acts including suicide bombings?
before I responded with:
quote:
ROTFL, what a loaded question.
As my response clearly shows, I thought you were joking at the time. Now I am no longer sure. Would you care to clarify?

quote:
If I had done it first, I would have apologized for the obviously flawed assertion
Still waiting for the apology. But not holding my breath ...
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seagull
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quote:
You are the one who declared many people guilty of an evil crime that they clearly did not commit.
I made no such claim.
I have asked you to try avoiding strawman arguments.
Apparently you are either incapable of doing so or doing it on purpose.

As to my focus on "militants" as a percentage of the death toll (as opposed to the overall population), even the BBC which usually has an anti-Israel bias calls for
"Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures"

According to the skewed UN figures:
quote:

there were 216 members of armed groups killed, and another 725 men who were civilians. Among civilians, more than three times as many men were killed as women, while three times as many civilian men were killed as fighters.

...

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."



[ August 08, 2014, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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velcro
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Greg,

I don't mean to pile on here, and I again request seagull to calm down, but I would like to settle this so we can continue with the discussion.

As far as I can tell, the first time suicide bombers being alive today was mentioned was by you, posted August 05, 2014 10:20 AM. I understand that you are traveling and have a lot on your mind. And I understand that it really has nothing to do with the conversation. But in the interest of civility, you may want to consider admitting this irrelevant error so we can all move on.

If I missed something and this information is incorrect, please point out my error.

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seagull
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quote:
I made no such claim.
I have asked you to try avoiding strawman arguments.
Apparently you are either incapable of doing so or doing it on purpose.

I light of velcro's request I acknowledge that there may be other interpretations that I have yet to think of for Greg's APPARENT use of strawman arguments against me.

If that is the case, I would be happy to be enlightened as to what these interpretations might be.

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Pete at Home
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Setting aside and taking no part in the seagull/greg dispute(which I haven't followed and don't understand), I commend seagull for this excellent piece of data.

quote:
Originally posted by seagull:

As to my focus on "militants" as a percentage of the death toll (as opposed to the overall population), even the BBC which usually has an anti-Israel bias calls for
"Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures"

According to the skewed UN figures:
quote:

there were 216 members of armed groups killed, and another 725 men who were civilians. Among civilians, more than three times as many men were killed as women, while three times as many civilian men were killed as fighters.

...

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."


Caution indeed. This is damning evidence that the figures are underrepresented Gaza militant casualties by a factor of THREE.
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seagull
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Pete, I refuse to take credit for an overstatement of the actual information that can be gained from these figures.

As the quote correctly states, "caution" is called for and the UN obviously has thrown caution to the wind in publishing their figures. For example, their civilian casualty count included the name of "Ayman Taha":
quote:
The body of Ayman Taha, a senior Hamas member who was also instrumental in founding the group, was found dead under the rubble in the Gaza neighborhood of Saja’yya.

Though the area was hit hard during Israel’s Gaza operation, Palestinian sources reported Thursday that Taha had not been killed as a result of an IDF attack, but was rather executed by Hamas after being accused of spying for Egypt.

Al Quds news reports that he was executed by Hamas via firing squad for collaboration with Israel, however other Palestinian media said it was his ties with Egypt that led to the execution.

I do not know and do not care if they have corrected their figures now that this has been exposed. The fact that a founder of Hamas was listed as an "innocent civilian" by the UN is all that matters. It casts a dark shadow on EVERYTHING ELSE they publish and on every reporter (and poster) who quotes UN figures without checking their credibility.

However, this anecdote (one of many) and the numbers quoted above are not conclusive evidence that Gaza militant casualties are underestimated "by a factor of THREE".

I objected when Greg tried to put words in my mouth before. I refuse to take credit for incorrect conclusions drawn from data that I happened to post.

The numbers I posted do conclusively disprove the false allegations that "Israel is killing civilians indiscriminately". But ...

However unlikely, it is theoretically possible that many of the 34% men ages 20 to 29 among the dead were civilians. I happen to believe that many of these men were killed because they were indeed militants and that killing them saved the lives of Israelis but I can not prove that to people like Greg who prefer to believe otherwise. As a matter of fact, there is causal evidence to support the claim that Gaza these days is a dangerous place for non-militant men of these ages.

* IDF videos show that air strikes are being called off when the pilots identify children near the targets.

* An IDF video shows an air strike on three militants fleeing from a recent rocket launch being aborted when they run to close to two old men.

* The IDF explanation for the regrettable death of the four children on the beach was that they were observed fleeing from a weapons cache and that the resolution of the pictures was not good enough to identify them as children and call off the missiles.

These anecdotes imply that men ages 20 to 29 fleeing from the scene of a crime (even if they are innocent) are more likely to get killed than women or children doing the same thing. This reasoning may explain the higher representation of that age group among the dead without proving that they were militants.

It is well documented that Hamas ties up children near their rocket launchers in order to either deter Israel from destroying the rocket launcher or create telegenic corpses for the the media. If we know they do that to children, why should we assume that they do not do the same to non militants between the ages of 20 and 29?

[ August 09, 2014, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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Pete at Home
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I give you credit for the source; I don't mean to place my own conclusion (factor of three) into your mouth, or for my inference that the BBC "caution" understates the problem.

Theoretically it's also possible that male civilians are more likely to remain in a danger zone, bringing female and children civilians to a safer place. But given anecdotal evidence of how Hamas deals with women and children, that seems highly unlikely.

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velcro
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quote:
It is well documented that Hamas ties up children near their rocket launchers in order to either deter Israel from destroying the rocket launcher or create telegenic corpses for the the media.
Would you mind providing a source so that I can show it to others?
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seagull
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Before posting the source for the "Hamas ties up children" claim, I checked the photo and videos more carefully and they seem to be fake. I therefore retract the statement as phrased above and apologize for it.

I believe that the milder claim that Hamas uses children as Human shields (not necessarily tying them up) is not hard to corroborate and that it is sufficient to support my argument above without resorting to questionable sources that will only weaken my point.

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Seneca
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It really makes me mildly ill that were are essentially having people trying to argue how MUCH of terrorists Hamas are. Does it really matter? They meet the bar for elimination by any reasonable standard given what even their defenders admit they do.
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seagull
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What makes me sick is that even though Hamas clearly "meet the bar for elimination by any reasonable standard" the IDF is not even trying to eliminate them for fear of something worse taking their place. In the last month, the IDF has killed many leaders of the Islamic Jihad and very few leaders of Hamas.

There are several possible explanations for the large discrepancy in the number of leaders killed from each faction:

* Some Islamic Jihad leaders are fighting with their "troops" whereas the Hamas leaders are not afraid of being called "cowards" and are hiding in bunkers under the hospitals.

* Israel is selectively targeting the Islamic Jihad and purposely leaving the Hamas leadership alone.

* The IDF has better information on the location of Islamic Jihad leaders (possibly provided by Hamas).

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