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Author Topic: UN Peacekeepers to occupy Ferguson Missouri
jasonr
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Tom, what is the evidence for the false flag theory in this case? Who do they recruit to engage in such missions? Is there proof that the police have done this recently?
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D.W.
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If there was "evidence" you wouldn't be asking Tom. We wouldn't be able to avoid it. Well unless the flag read NBC or FOX or something.
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Seneca
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There is no evidence, but somehow it's worth discussing because...?
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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Seriati, in the case of Ferguson, riots let the police shift the narrative away from murder. Sympathetic media can now focus on images and stories of violent protesters rather than the cops. Outlets sympathetic to the protesters fragment over concerns about the riots and the strategies of protest.

I'm not sure I see it here. What would such a shift even gain them? Normally, you'd want it to derail a violent protest by people mad about the murder, but if you're provoking a violent protest that's a best a wash. Unless the argument is that a later protest would be worse.

None of this would change the way the situation is handled later in the courts were the originally killing will be evaluated in isolation.

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Rafi
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The theory is that the police, by virtue of donning riot gear and perhaps even planting protestors to encourage violence, have instigated the riots in order to control the narrative in Ferguson and shift it away from the police.

[DOH]

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TomDavidson
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The two excuses that I've seen so far for observed police behavior are as follows:

1) Brown was a violent thug who deserved to die because he was directly endangering a police officer.
2) A significant proportion of the protesters in Ferguson are aggressively violent and/or using the protests as cover for theft and vandalism.

To point #1, it has been alleged that Brown had just robbed a convenience store, lunged at the officer who killed him before being shot, and seriously injured the police officer in question. All three of these points are actually open questions, but it's important for certain members of the media to keep them in the public eye because it keeps alive the idea that the police response was not disproportionate in this case and therefore no review of Ferguson police practices is necessary or reasonable.

Point #2 is necessary to the narrative because the only reasonable justification for tear gas, massive crowd control, rubber bullets and tanks is that there would be a substantial danger to lives and property if the police response were de-escalated. If the protests can be portrayed as uncontrolled riots filled with thieving criminals, as well, any legitimate complaints aired during those protests can be more easily dismissed.

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AI Wessex
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Everybody gets to decide who to believe and who is more credible. Dana Loesch is feeding the officer's story to FOX and Breitbart about how he was attacked by Brown, but that story is based on a phony first-person account that the officer didn't write. It was phoned into her by an anonymous caller and she has run with it since then. OTOH, Here's a set of interviews with eye witnesses who give a completely different account that is consistent and paints the officer as the aggressor.
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jasonr
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quote:
To point #1, it has been alleged that Brown had just robbed a convenience store, lunged at the officer who killed him before being shot, and seriously injured the police officer in question. All three of these points are actually open questions, but it's important for certain members of the media to keep them in the public eye because it keeps alive the idea that the police response was not disproportionate in this case and therefore no review of Ferguson police practices is necessary or reasonable.
No I really don't think that's quite the point. The point is we don't know what happened and that contrary to the mainstream media narrative, it is possible that the officer behaved appropriately.

I just find the whole case confounding. I would have been happy to reserve judgment and let the courts sort this out once the matter was investigated and all the facts became known.

But no, that's not what Brown's advocates want. They want a trial in the media. Well so be it. But the point has to be made that you can't say out of one side of your mouth that the guy was this good kid with a bright future going to college, a "gentle giant" with a kind heart, while with the other side of your mouth say that's irrelevant and "character assassination" to show a video of this guy robbing a store and roughing up a clerk just hours before the shooting. And it isn't an "alleged" robbery in any sense but the strictly legal one. He robbed the store. It's on video. Even his family doesn't deny it.

There is certainly a double standard here. And yes it's relevant, because it creates motive for Brown to have run from the police, confronted the police or reacted aggressively; even if the officer didn't know he robbed the store, he certainly did. It's at the very least relevant to the type of person Brown was and how he solved his problems (i.e. by attacking people, rather than talking with them)

Again, I'd normally wait for all the facts to come out before speculating, but since certain parties seem to want to lynch the officer and pre-emptively convict him, it's incumbent for some of us to point out a few chinks in the armor.

It wouldn't be necessary to "assassinate" the boy's character if his advocates weren't the ones shooting first. What is it they call it in the Cop's shows? Opening the door?

As for the false flag theory, you never answered my question? Has it been proven in the past that the police used this tactic in any recent confrontations? (G20, Ferguson, Occupy Wallstreet etc...)

[ August 25, 2014, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
It wouldn't be necessary to "assassinate" the boy's character if his advocates weren't the ones shooting first.
If by "shooting first" you mean "complaining about the boy being dead," you're probably right. But, then again, it's not like the police were going to complain about it.

quote:
There is certainly a double standard here.
Indeed there is. But it's not JUST that Brown's supporters suddenly turn him into a little angel: it's that the response to his wrongful death appears to be that any black man who isn't a little angel can expect to die at the hands of police.

----------

quote:
Has it been proven in the past that the police used this tactic in any recent confrontations?
It's been proven at at least one G20 conference and two Occupy protests, and Republicans were caught seeding the Walker protests with a handful of ringers. But it's hard to prove-prove this sort of thing until years later, after it's declassified and/or comes out in court cases. Since the purpose of most of these operations is not just to discredit a movement but to infiltrate it, it can take a while.

[ August 25, 2014, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Pete at Home
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Cops.claim that the cop that shot him was injured in the face. IF the protesters are running around smashing things while.demanding the cop's name, i could underatand why they'd want to go into spin mods.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
But no, that's not what Brown's advocates want. They want a trial in the media.
That's not what I want. There are three sides to this story, the police version, the eyewitness version and the media version. You can't just sit back and say that the only versions you should have are the police and the media. The problem with getting the eyewitness version out is that it is treated with huge amounts of skepticism, so it is constantly being put down and has to keep struggling to keep itself in the discussion.

Or let me ask you a question, have you heard the eyewitness accounts in the media or from the police?
quote:
But the point has to be made that you can't say out of one side of your mouth that the guy was this good kid with a bright future going to college, a "gentle giant" with a kind heart, while with the other side of your mouth say that's irrelevant and "character assassination" to show a video of this guy robbing a store and roughing up a clerk just hours before the shooting. And it isn't an "alleged" robbery in any sense but the strictly legal one. He robbed the store. It's on video. Even his family doesn't deny it.
IMO you have that backwards. The police published the video of a suspected "strong arm robbery" by Brown, but when the whole video of his interaction with the store was released by the media it showed him apparently paying for the cigars. The store owner never filed a complaint of a robbery and was reported to be confused why the police showed up at his store asking to see his tapes.
quote:
Has it been proven in the past that the police used this tactic in any recent confrontations?
Actually, the killing a day or two later of another black teenager in St. Louis clearly looks like the police overreacted to the situation and shot the victim at least 7 times. They claimed that he was holding the knife over his head in a threatening manner and was only 3 feet away when they shot him as he came towards them. The eyewitness video shows that he was carrying a knife below his waist but had not made any threatening moves in their direction and was about 7-10 feet from them.

Today on the BBC I heard an interview with a black female police officer in St. Louis. She was asked a number of questions about the attitudes of her fellow officers. Her answers were completely depressing, where she said several times that the white officers she serves with treat blacks on the street and blacks they arrest as if they are barely human, and treat whites respectfully in comparison.

Racism leads ultimately to dehumanization. IMO, that is why the blacks in Ferguson and St. Louis are so outraged by Brown's killing.

[ August 25, 2014, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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D.W.
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I love how our president is catching flack for not jumping in on this and picking a side. Pretty sad when waiting for our legal system to play out is a sign of weakness in a president.
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Pete at Home
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" If by "shooting first" you mean "complaining about the boy being dead,"

I thought he meant violent rioting while.demanding the name and pic of the shooting officer be turned.over.to the mob prior to the investigation.

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PSRT
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quote:
I just find the whole case confounding. I would have been happy to reserve judgment and let the courts sort this out once the matter was investigated and all the facts became known.
Honestly, that's because you are white, and are not far more likely to be killed by a police officer than a white man. Because you aren't far more likely to be stopped by police officers than if you were white. Because you aren't far more likely to be convicted by the courts than a white man. Aren't far more likely to serve a long sentence for your crime than a white man.

Black men are right not to trust our judicial system to treat them fairly. Trusting the legal system to properly handle our cases is a privelege we have because we are white. One third of black men will go to jail in their lifetime. Do you understand how ridiculous that is, and how that might play into blacks not trusting the judicial system?

On top of that, there are unlikely to be serious repurcussions for the police officer, compared to if you or I shot an unarmed person on the street, so waiting for the judicial system is waiting for the police officer to get a free pass. There is rightful distrust, especially by the black community, that the judicial system would handle the killing in a way that is fair.

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Pete at Home
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Is the reasonable fear mutual? Do cops have reason to believe that black males pose greater physical threat to the cops than white.males so? Has anyone taken the stats the other way?
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Is the reasonable fear mutual? Do cops have reason to believe that black males pose greater physical threat to the cops than white.males so? Has anyone taken the stats the other way?

Only if you believe that blacks present an inherent threat that the police have learned to fear. Perhaps this is the racism you were claiming for yourself.
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Pete at Home
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That's a putrid.motive inference, Al, and a shallow thing for you to.say.

Of course i dont think that blacks are "inherently" violent.

What I'm saying is that two groups that are brainwashed into seeing each other as enemies, are going to act enemies to.each other.

If you cannot be bothered to.read what i said about my opinion that everyone in our culture is a little.racist, because of what we have been taught, then I must ask you to shut upa about what i said and stop making insulting and shallow manipulations of what i said. Just get off.my leg.

[ August 27, 2014, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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AI Wessex
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If you want what you said to be taken seriously, then the answer is that blacks are an oppressed minority in many cities and neighborhoods in this country. If the police fear them it is at least partially because the black citizens they harass are justifiably angry and capable of striking back.
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Pete at Home
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At this point I really couldn't care less if you take me seriously. Your manipulation of what I said is completely unacceptable. Your hateful motive inference and unwarranted projection of hateful supremacist sentiments onto me, absolutely flouts the rules of civil discourse.
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Pete at Home
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" . If the police fear them it is at least partially because the black citizens they harass are justifiably angry and capable of striking back."

I agree with most of.what you said. The only part which I can't agree with, is your foolish ans one-sided.assumption that ALL cops who fear black males, also harass black males. Reasonable people.will.recognize that decent cops.may suffer as well as decent peaceful black males may be victims.of general.prejudice and suspicion. But I guess that it's easy for a rich white guy living in a lily white suburb, to project his.own racism-in denial onto less affluent whites

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AI Wessex
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Sorry about that first comment. I reacted too quickly to it. Moving too fast sometimes...
quote:
The only part which I can't agree with, is your foolish ans one-sided.assumption that ALL cops who fear black males, also harass black males. Reasonable people.will.recognize that decent cops.may suffer as well as decent peaceful black males may be victims.of general.prejudice and suspicion. But I guess that it's easy for a rich white guy living in a lily white suburb, to project his.own racism-in denial onto less affluent whites
Leaving aside your trailing sneer, I didn't say all cops, but if 10% of police in a community have a history of harassing blacks, then any cop might be one who does and any black man/woman might be someone they harass.
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Pete at Home
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Apology accepted.

" 10% of police in a community have a history of harassing blacks, then any cop might be one who does and any black man/woman might be someone they harass."

Agreed. And in vegas i thought more.than 10%the of.cops were toxic racists ... some.prosecutors too, as you might remember from my story about the prosecutor who argues, to a nodding judge, that since my client was 18, male, and black, that he must therefore be a gang member

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TomDavidson
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I'm conflicted about this article, but it's handy for the links rebutting most of the more ridiculous claims by Ferguson police supporters.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-wacky-farts-that-can-help-us-understand-ferguson-mo/

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Pete at Home
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Hard to tell ... was that true abt report not getting filed, or was that a gag?

[ August 30, 2014, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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LetterRip
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Yes it was true about the not filing reports. They are generally accurate about their facts on cracked.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3195723/posts

However, they don't have any guarantees of accuracy and don't have any fact checking staff, etc., so reliaibility of the 'facts' can vary depending on the contributor.

[ August 30, 2014, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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Pete at Home
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The idea of neither police investigation filing any report, suggests to me that probably a report was written and then buried as inconvenient.
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jasonr
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The latest forensic evidence seems to suggest that there was indeed a close range struggle, right in the officer's car in fact. Even the resident talking heads on CNN are squirming.

At this point, the sense I am getting is that it's getting increasingly likely that the grand jury won't even indict.

When that happens, there's going to be a blowup, no question about it. This mob is only going to accept one outcome: indictment, conviction, sentence, period full stop. If they don't get what they want, here come the riots.

You know, as a lawyer, I'd just like to have all the evidence in front of me, in a big pile so I can read it through and come to my own conclusions. But that sort of thing seems to be frowned upon these days. If the grand jury doesn't indict, it's because of their bias. If the case doesn't go to trial, it's because the prosecutors are biased. The mob? Why they can't be biased, can they?

Heck, maybe this dude really was shot for no reason, murdered in the streets by a bad cop? What does it matter. The facts have been steamrolled. The outcome is pre-determined.

[ October 23, 2014, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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ScottF
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Barring more mob violence, you'll find the media relatively silent if evidence begins pointing to anything other than a bad white cop. No longer a story they're all that interested in. Granted, it's still a big "if" on the evidence.
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Wayward Son
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Of course, if the grand jury does indict, then there is going to be a different blowup. The talking heads are only going to accept one outcome: the police being completely cleared. If they don't get what they want, here comes the mudslinging.

Yes, waiting for all the evidence to appear is frowned upon these days. If the jury does indict, it's because of their bias. If the case goes to trial, it's because of the prosecutors are racist against whites. The talking heads? They can't be biased, can they?

The facts have been steamrolled. The outcome is pre-determined.

You call them the mob. I call them the right-wing talking heads. Does it really matter who they are? In this day and age, everyone expects reality to conform to their pre-determined opinion.

It is truly sad that no one can wait until all the facts are known. [Frown]

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jasonr
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quote:
You call them the mob. I call them the right-wing talking heads. Does it really matter who they are?
When Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity rampage through the streets of Ferguson looting shops or burning down buildings, your equivalency will no longer be false.

But I agree - in a perfect world we would wait for all the facts and then decide. But since the Ferguson black community decided it was to be trial by media - so be it. So far, Mr Brown is losing the trial.

Watching them rally around this dead thug is pathetic. The mother I get - they could have a video of him robbing a bank and shooting someone in the face and she'd still defend him. But that the rest of the community has rallied around this POS speaks volumes about how poisoned the relationship is between blacks and the police.

[ October 23, 2014, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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Wayward Son
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quote:
When Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity rampage through the streets of Ferguson looting shops and throwing rocks at police, then you'll have a point.

Until then, your comparison is moronic.

When comparing economic and physical harm, you are absolutely correct. Riots do more harm and damage than Rush and Sean put together.

But Rush and Sean also have major media programs for spreading their opinions. Do you think you would have heard about this, or that we would be discussing it, if the people of Ferguson hadn't gone into the streets? [Wink]

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jasonr
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I have to agree with your last point Wayward. Without the peoples' agitation, in all probability, this case would never have received much attention, let alone a full investigation.

But the reality is, now we are well past the point where coverup is a legitimate allegation. The facts are going to be the facts, end of story. If a grand jury fails to indict, that speaks to the weakness of this case.

The problem now is that the black community of Ferguson seems to have thrown in its lot with this thug, to the point where they literally can't back down, no matter what the facts say. And unlike Rush et al., they are holding a threat of violence over the entire process. The message is clear: We want justice. Justice means the officer is found guilty. If you don't give us this "justice" the city is going to burn.

As I said, very sad. And all for a thug and a criminal.

The fact that he was a thug and a criminal may not be directly relevant to the exact question of whether not the officer rightly killed him (although it is certainly relevant), it really leaves an awfully bad taste to this story. Seeing this thug's mother playing the media, who just a little while ago, was telling us what a "gentle giant" her son was until the convenience store video put the lie to that - is really nauseating.

[ October 23, 2014, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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Seneca
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The injustice here is clearly with the race baiters. They have stirred up the people of Ferguson to the point where the people recently rioted because a white cop returned fire at a black man who shot at the police first...

Let that sink in for a moment.

So given the new evidence as well as the recent riot over the police RETURNING fire on a criminal who shot at them first, what did the race hustlers really want the officer in the Brown case to do? They wanted the officer to die. That is clearly the only outcome which would have been acceptable to them.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
They have stirred up the people of Ferguson....
When do you think they did this, precisely?
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PSRT
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quote:
The facts are going to be the facts, end of story. If a grand jury fails to indict, that speaks to the weakness of this case.

The problem now is that the black community of Ferguson seems to have thrown in its lot with this thug, to the point where they literally can't back down, no matter what the facts say. And unlike Rush et al., they are holding a threat of violence over the entire process. The message is clear: We want justice. Justice means the officer is found guilty. If you don't give us this "justice" the city is going to burn.

As I said, very sad. And all for a thug and a criminal.

The fact that he was a thug and a criminal may not be directly relevant to the exact question of whether not the officer rightly killed him (although it is certainly relevant), it really leaves an awfully bad taste to this story. Seeing this thug's mother playing the media, who just a little while ago, was telling us what a "gentle giant" her son was until the convenience store video put the lie to that - is really nauseating.

Maybe I'm missing something, because I haven't really kept up, but last I saw of the conviencence store video, there's absolutely no evidence there of any criminality, and that included what the store owner said. So unless there are recent developments on that end, I think your own bias is getting in the way of seeing the facts of the case.

The second part of this is: The black community of the united states, and in this specific case the black community of ferguson, has rational reason not to trust the criminal justice system. THere is literally no aspect of our judicial system that doesn't have results that are systematically worse for blacks than for whites, and that includes indictments for black on white crime vs white on black crime. Trusting the criminal justice system to be fair is a luxury that whites have, but blacks don't.

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jasonr
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quote:
Maybe I'm missing something, because I haven't really kept up, but last I saw of the conviencence store video, there's absolutely no evidence there of any criminality, and that included what the store owner said. So unless there are recent developments on that end, I think your own bias is getting in the way of seeing the facts of the case.
He stole a box of cigars from a convenience store while intimidating and blatantly roughing up the clerk. That would be robbery. Robbery is a crime. This is not up for debate. He robbed the store. Even the family isn't saying that he didn't.

quote:
The second part of this is: The black community of the united states, and in this specific case the black community of ferguson, has rational reason not to trust the criminal justice system. THere is literally no aspect of our judicial system that doesn't have results that are systematically worse for blacks than for whites, and that includes indictments for black on white crime vs white on black crime. Trusting the criminal justice system to be fair is a luxury that whites have, but blacks don't.
I don't know what to tell you, except that Brown was the wrong horse to bet on.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
He stole a box of cigars from a convenience store while intimidating and blatantly roughing up the clerk.
Just to check, but the clerk actually confirmed this, correct? There was some confusion when the tape was first released, IIRC.
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PSRT
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quote:
I don't know what to tell you, except that Brown was the wrong horse to bet on.
Its not a bet. Its frustration with a system that is systematically racist, from top to bottom. The fact that white people are calling on black people to calmly accept a racist system's judgement doesn't help the situation. It just inflames it, because it pretends the problem is due to a specific situation.
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jasonr
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quote:
Just to check, but the clerk actually confirmed this, correct? There was some confusion when the tape was first released, IIRC.
I recall reading actually that the clerk was quite frightened and did not want to be interviewed or get involved for obvious reasons once the story broke and the video was released.

I only know that if there was any doubt about what the video shows happening (which seems pretty clear to me) then Brown's family and the media would not be letting it slide. If you have evidence to contradict the accepted version of events, let me know.

quote:
Its not a bet. Its frustration with a system that is systematically racist, from top to bottom.
This begs the question.

quote:
The fact that white people are calling on black people to calmly accept a racist system's judgement doesn't help the situation. It just inflames it, because it pretends the problem is due to a specific situation.
Got it. We'll just go ahead and lynch the innocent officer lickity split. Can't let "facts" and "logic" get in the way of "justice", can we? That would be racist.

[ October 25, 2014, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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jasonr
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You know what I want for my birthday PSRT? A police killing where the "victim" didn't have it coming. Where it actually is just a cop murdering an innocent black man.

I'd even settle for something along the lines of the Sammy Yatin case, where the victim may not be entirely without blame, but where the cops clearly jumped the shark gunning down someone who clearly didn`t need to be shot. Yatin was crazed, but cordoned off on an empty streetcar. But somehow when he didn`t drop his little knife, the officer had no choice but to shoot him eight times and then taze his dying body for good measure.

Do us Canadians have you beat for actual police violence cases or is this piece of thug garbage the best you could come up with?

In our "racist" system, actually innocent victims should not be too much to ask, should it?

Rosa Parks seems to be in short supply. Today's version would be a doped out crackhead throwing rocks at the cops.

[ October 25, 2014, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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