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Author Topic: UN Peacekeepers to occupy Ferguson Missouri
Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:

[QUOTE]But thanks for reminding me to remind you that I'm still waiting to hear about Jewish thug culture as a result of their oppression.

No you're not. You've been answered but chose to dismiss the answers that you've been given because they were inconvenient for you to deal with.

The old testament is very much a parallel to rap for the part that it plays in Jewish society, and it very clearly shows many, many instances of similar need and celebration of aggressive, if not outright violent reactions to oppression.

So in response to me asking you where Jewish thug culture is as a result of oppression in the Middle Ages and later, you've answered me several times with "the Old Testament." First of all there is a time paradox in your suggestion, since the Old Testament was composed prior to the Middle Ages and therefore cannot be a response to the treatment of Jews during the Middle Ages and later. Second, if you're suggesting that Jews celebrating a culture of rebellion from 2,500 years ago with regard to oppressors at that same time is indicative of thug culture in Jewish culture now (against the Hittites?) then you're mixing apples and oranges.

It's really quite outrageous, don't you think, to suggest that Bible study is an exercise in thuggery, and to draw a parallel between the Bible and rap music? I think you can do better than that.

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scifibum
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I think you could safely drop it, since it's a pretty arbitrary challenge and isn't going to move the dialogue forward no matter whether someone tries to meet it or not. There are too many differences between different cultures for it to be reasonable to find such a direct parallel.
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PSRT
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Fenring, you are also ignoring the violence that existed in shtetl culture, and in the US in the form of the jewish mafia.
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D.W.
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The only parallel I can think of is warlords taking power in areas where there is little to no government law / protection. Not the warlords, but how every adult male feels pressured to act in such an environment.

There is no Jewish thug culture in response to oppression. The power vacuum causes the thug culture.

Sorry for beating a dead horse on this point.

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noel c.
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Mormons had some real issues with the federal government in 1857 (and before). Oddly, a thug culture never emerged... if anything, the cultural center-of-gravity shifted to one of the most lawful in the nation.

Poverty, and oppression have never been the quid pro quo of criminal behavior. Willful ignorance, on the other hand, has resulted in violent tyranny every place it is found.

Example:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-cleveland-police-probe-20141204-story.html

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PSRT
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quote:
There is no Jewish thug culture in response to oppression. The power vacuum causes the thug culture.
You're wrong. Jewish thug culture exists and existed in places with power structures in place.
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D.W.
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
There is no Jewish thug culture in response to oppression. The power vacuum causes the thug culture.
You're wrong. Jewish thug culture exists and existed in places with power structures in place.
And thank you for the morning cup of humility. Can I have a helping of education or at least directions to the nearest diner?
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PSRT
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All I can really say is do some deep reading on jewish culture in europe. You have to dig past the surface, beca use its largely ignored in the two page explanations of judaism. Jewish politics has historically been loaded with the equivalent of thug culture, particularly in places where the local jewish government is dominated by an oppressive regime. Much of eastern Europe in the 1800s shows this pretty clear. But it's also worth remembering that there are significant differences between late 20th century blacks in america, and early midi evaluation jewry in europe, in terms of access to legitimacy
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
There is no Jewish thug culture in response to oppression. The power vacuum causes the thug culture.
You're wrong. Jewish thug culture exists and existed in places with power structures in place.
And thank you for the morning cup of humility. Can I have a helping of education or at least directions to the nearest diner?
Heh, funny. And no, of course there is no Jewish thug culture; the question was meant to be ironic, not to produce answers attempting to show how Jews might be thuggish in some obscure way. Since Jews don't go around with aggressive posture to demonstrate potential for physical violence, sing songs and celebrate things like killing police, raping women, crime, and gang affiliation, or otherwise try to show that they are badasses, there is therefore no Jewish thug culture; at least, not in North America and Europe from what I know. I'll be honest, though, and say that I'm not sure how Jews in some areas of Israel physically comport themselves, although I've met many Israelis. Some vague sort of rebelliousness is not, in itself, thug culture or even related to it; it actually requires the veneer of 'thug' to go with it.

My point was simply that the claim that thug culture, just like various other woes, cannot be laid directly at the feet of white men and their history of oppressing minorities. To be sure there is a connection, and many woes are indirectly related to others, but no system of oppression against blacks necessitated them endorsing music with such vile themes. As Noel mentioned, there are many possible ways a people could adapt to a history of oppression against them. The European Jews, for instance, tended to become insular and even segregated from the general population when things were bad, but if anything they sublimated this even harder into their own faith and identity as a people. Chinese and Japanese Americans have each had their history of being mistreated by America, but they seem to have channelled whatever wounds that left into other avenues rather than to embrace criminality through their music.

I'd just like to note again that my comments on thug culture pertain to the fact that I think it's harmful for the black community itself and will hinder chances of reconciliation.

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PSRT
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Jews in america are not currently an oppresed class. They were, and at the time, there were organizations like murder incorporated, which was made up of a large number of jews
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TomDavidson
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quote:
And no, of course there is no Jewish thug culture...
Except there really was, and still is in many places. There's a Jewish "mafia," several Zionist gangs throughout history, settler organizations that are largely indistinguishable from "ghetto gangs," ultraorthodox "Kosher" enforcers, and military fetishization out the wazoo. It doesn't look exactly like black thuggery, but there are similar cultural "danger" signifiers stamped all over 'em.
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D.W.
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If we are using "thug culture" to mean "participants in organized crime", you can pretty much ignore everything I've posted on the subject. What group doesn't have a thug culture? [Razz]
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
into other avenues rather than to embrace criminality through their music/
If that's how you're defining "thug culture" then the discussion is absurd because you're effectively stating that you have no idea what you're talking about and are arbitrarily picking one possible form of expression instead of any inherent core aspects of it.

Look at Renaissance Italy if you want thug culture writ large, Jews included. Or if you're really hung up on music being the magical indicator of it, I can take you through an extensive collection of the Irish and Scottish library of songs.

Thug culture is a culture of aggressive posturing against authority and the dominant population that one lives among to proactively protect oneself from aggression and demonstrate on an ongoing basis, usually including a celebration of acts that buck that oppression. Aggressive music is a possible way of doing that, to be sure, but it is not, by far, the only method. You've been answered many times over based on an honest understanding of thug culture if you're actually interested in learning and not just covering your ignorance through arbitrary and inaccurate benchmarks.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
quote:
Pay your court costs or go to jail
So where are the protests that demand an abolition of the concept of 'court costs'? I'd be in favor of them.
Maslow can answer that one for you easily- a systematic treat to life- in this case the effective, mostly uncontested open season that law enforcement has on blacks, is going to rank as a much higher priority than more abstract things like finances and general social liberty.

I mean, it is handy to those that benefit from the abuses of such systems that they can keep poor whites and poor minorities from teaming up on such issues by keeping minorities under threat of life while selling a bill of goods to the whites about how dangerous minorities are and how support for them is why poor whites have it so bad, etc...

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
If we are using "thug culture" to mean "participants in organized crime", you can pretty much ignore everything I've posted on the subject. What group doesn't have a thug culture? [Razz]

Dig a little deeper into that and you'll note that organized crime generally doesn't take foot among the more privileged segments of society- it can almost always trace its roots back to a marginalized group cooperating to find ways to protect itself and profit when it has found itself shut out of the more privileged avenues to success.

Not that, given time, it can't gather enough power to take de facto control of fairly significant areas, but that's much further down the life cycle of power dynamics. It's pretty much an outgrowth of thug culture mixed with profitability.

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noel c.
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"... organized crime... can almost always trace its roots back to a marginalized group cooperating to find ways to protect itself and profit when it has found itself shut out of the more privileged avenues to success... It's pretty much an outgrowth of thug culture mixed with profitability. "...

This is not true of the American experience.

The Irish, Sicilians, Hatians, and Russians all arrived with full-blown organized criminal enterprises transplanted from their homelands. The "marginalization" associated with their historical origines is defined by ill gotten "privilege", which they perpetuate in America as a fertile target for exploitation.

American black thuggery is much more locally tribal, and "unorganized". A comparison with crime syndicates is somewhat artificial.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
The Irish, Sicilians, Hatians, and Russians all arrived with full-blown organized criminal enterprises transplanted from their homelands.
Where they existed in that state from time immemorial? I'll be happy to dig just a little deeper on the Irish with you, as a test case, to see if we can't find some suggestion of where such might have originated before they came here if we otherwise take your blind assertion as a fact.
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noel c.
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"Where they existed in that state from time immemorial? "...

No human endeavor has existed from "time immemorial".

"I'll be happy to dig just a little deeper on the Irish with you, as a test case, to see if we can't find some suggestion of where such might have originated before they came here if we otherwise take your blind assertion as a fact. "...

It is a source of continual entertainment to see the sheer volume of words you need to say so little, but by all means, "dig".

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
It is a source of continual entertainment to see the sheer volume of words you need to say so little, but by all means, "dig".

The Irish coming to America- do you assert they were coming of their own free will from a country where they were free to live and pursue economic opportunity as they saw fit?
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noel c.
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"The Irish coming to America- do you assert they were coming of their own free will from a country where they were free to live and pursue economic opportunity as they saw fit? "...

Yes, beginning with Francis Magnel in 1607 at Jamestown. Dionis Oconor came the next year.

[ December 05, 2014, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
"The Irish coming to America- do you assert they were coming of their own free will from a country where they were free to live and pursue economic opportunity as they saw fit? "...

Yes, beginning with Francis Magnel in 1607 at Jamestown. Dionis Oconor came the next year.

You didn't answer my question. But you gave a date. 1607. Fine in 1607 you're asserting that Ireland was a free and sovereign nation, not being occupied and ruled by any external oppressor?
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Pyrtolin
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(Of course a more proper date would be when the portion of the population that you claim contained that criminal element came over, which would have been much later, but given the shape of Irish history, 1607 is a great place to look to see exactly what the conditions were like back at home.)
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noel c.
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"You didn't answer my question. "...

Yes, I did answer your question. If, on the other hand, you are hanging your hat on the settlement of Northern Ireland by England, then you should be aware that Irish organized crime has been present since the early 1800s, and was not a consequence of the Tudor invasion.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Where they existed in that state from time immemorial? I'll be happy to dig just a little deeper on the Irish with you, as a test case, to see if we can't find some suggestion of where such might have originated before they came here if we otherwise take your blind assertion as a fact.
You can't resist, can you? It's not exactly like poking the bear, you know [Wink] .
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TomDavidson
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I don't think noel realizes how he comes off in these exchanges.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
Yes, I did answer your question.


I asked if the Irish that came to America were coming from a free or oppressed land, You responded by telling me the names of a couple of early Irish immigrants. That's very much not answering the question I asked.
quote:

If, on the other hand, you are hanging your hat on the settlement of Northern Ireland by England, then you should be aware that Irish organized crime has been present since the early 1800s, and was not a consequence of the Tudor invasion.

"Settlement": a series of wars of conquest resulting in oppressive, dictatorial control.

Okay, so not even counting the centuries of conflict and attempted invasion before full control was taken in 1607 you don't see believe that 200 years of subjugation by the English produced encouraged the development of an impoverished, violent culture or organized crime as a facet of that resistance? You want to assert that the English oppression of Ireland over that span was completely incidental to the way Irish culture developed?

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Pyrtolin
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(As a bit of a handout: "Northern Ireland" wasn't a thing until 1921, which is the year that Great Britain Granted independence to the rest of Ireland. The English took the whole country and ruled it for over 300 years, not counting partial control before that)
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noel c.
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Pyrtolin,

"I asked if the Irish that came to America were coming from a free or oppressed land, You responded by telling me the names of a couple of early Irish immigrants. "...

No, you need to re-read your own post, which I quoted to avoid precisely this variety of compulsive double-talk.

"The Irish" have been immigrating to America since the very first British settlement, and there are now more Irishmen in America than in Ireland. Among our presidents are names like Bucannon, McKinley (Ulster Irish descent), and Kennedy... all of whom predate the demise of organized Irish crime in America.

Criminality is the product of cultural sloth, and a willingness to employ violence to "profit", as you say.

"Okay, so not even counting the centuries of conflict and attempted invasion before full control was taken in 1607 you don't see believe that 200 years of subjugation by the English produced encouraged the development of an impoverished, violent culture... "...

All of Ireland is relatively "impoverished", including the catholic south. How do you attribute that to the English?

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
No, you need to re-read your own post, which I quoted to avoid precisely this variety of compulsive double-talk
Here is is again with some highlighting to help your comprehension:

"The Irish coming to America- do you assert they were coming of their own free will from a country where they were free to live and pursue economic opportunity as they saw fit?"

quote:
Criminality is the product of cultural sloth, and a willingness to employ violence to "profit", as you say.
That is not what I said, don't be disingenuous.

Poverty very often results in people turning to criminal behavoir because that is the only option open to them to meet their basic needs as they have been shut out of most, if not all legal options. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs illustrates how this works pretty well. If you're starving or otherwise not physically secure more abstract concepts like following the law aren't even on the radar.

Characterizing it as "sloth" is exceptionally absurd, as the level of effort and risk involved is generally much higher than the regular legal work the would otherwise be doing if the option to do it was actually open to them.

quote:
All of Ireland is relatively "impoverished", including the catholic south. How do you attribute that to the English?
Hundreds of years of oppression and intentional starvation, largely specifically because of that Catholicism, aren't good enough for you?

[ December 05, 2014, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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noel c.
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Pyrtolin,

For in-house clarification of your thoughts, how does this... :

"... from a country where they were free to live and pursue economic opportunity as they saw fit?"

Equal this?... :

"I asked if the Irish that came to America were coming from a free or oppressed land... "

I did not indicate you said this... :

"Criminality is the product of cultural sloth, and a willingness to employ violence to 'profit', as you say. "

The internal quote is "profit" , which you *did* say... :

"... it can almost always trace its roots back to a marginalized group cooperating to find ways to protect itself and 💥profit💥 when it has found itself shut out of the more privileged avenues to success. "

If you want to avoid a sense of "disingenuity" in this discussion, keep better track of what you say.

"Poverty very often results in people turning to criminal behavoir because that is the only option open to them to meet their basic needs as they have been shut out of most, if not all legal options. "...

So, petty thugs specialize in stealing bread, milk, and the baby's shoes?

"Characterizing it as 'sloth' is exceptionally absurd, as the level of effort and risk involved is generally much higher than the regular legal work the would otherwise be doing if the option to do it was actually open to them. "...

I see. It is not only "absurd", but "exceptionally absurd", to imply Michael Brown helped himself to a handful of cigarillos because he was a materialistic sloth?

"Hundreds of years of oppression and intentional starvation, largely specifically because of that Catholicism, aren't good enough for you? "...

Ah, so we have shifted from the aggression of Henry VIII, to the Catholic Church as victimizer... the same institution that administered private education, and charitable healthcare to an entire nation?

Was the Pope responsible for the potato famine of the mid-1800s also?

My take on Ireland is that the primary export over the last two centuries has been Irishmen... individuals with the initiative to pull up ancient roots, and take enormous risk to improve their material well-being. Ireland itself has always been heavily agrarian, and temporally poor. Their culture is rich by other standards. More artists, and academics originate on a per capita basis than any other European country.

Unfortunately for indigenous thugs, that makes for some pretty slim pickins. Organized Irish criminals emigrated for the same reason, and to the same places, that their compatriots did.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:

Ah, so we have shifted from the aggression of Henry VIII, to the Catholic Church as victimizer... the same institution that administered private education, and charitable healthcare to an entire nation?

I'm not even going to get into issues with the Catholic church, especially during that time period. We're talking about the way the Protestant English subjugated and starve the Irish, in no small part because they refused to convert, in this context.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:

For in-house clarification of your thoughts, how does this... :

"... from a country where they were free to live and pursue economic opportunity as they saw fit?"

Equal this?... :

"I asked if the Irish that came to America were coming from a free or oppressed land... "

You don't understand how not being "free to live and pursue economic opportunity as they saw fit" would suggest that they're oppressed?

quote:
"Criminality is the product of cultural sloth, and a willingness to employ violence to 'profit', as you say. "

The internal quote is "profit" , which you *did* say... :

Seriously? You're suggesting that pulling one word of what I said and dropping it into a context that says something completely different is valid to present as referring to something I said? That's a new height of deceptiveness and bad faith for you. The single word alone without the full context that gave it meaning is not a valid quote of what I was saying.

quote:
"Poverty very often results in people turning to criminal behavoir because that is the only option open to them to meet their basic needs as they have been shut out of most, if not all legal options. "...

So, petty thugs specialize in stealing bread, milk, and the baby's shoes?

MAny do, but if they can find a way to make money to better afford what they need, that usually tends to be a more productive and reliable path to establishing a secure baseline, especially because there are many needs that pretty much require a cash flow to meet, such as rent payments for a place to live.

quote:
I see. It is not only "absurd", but "exceptionally absurd", to imply Michael Brown helped himself to a handful of cigarillos because he was a materialistic sloth?
Since he was fully out of the current context of a discussion that was on wider cultural trends and had nothing to do with any specific individual case, Brown had no relevance at all here.
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noel c.
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"I'm not even going to get into issues with the Catholic church, especially during that time period. We're talking about the way the Protestant English subjugated and starve the Irish, in no small part because they refused to convert, in this context. "...

In what historical context do your comments accurately reflect the oppressive qualities of the Catholic Church against the inhabitants of Southern Ireland? You originally made this claim to bolster an novel theory that was experiencing factual congruency problems. Should I walk you through your reasoning?

"You don't understand how not being 'free to live and pursue economic opportunity as they saw fit' would suggest that they're oppressed? "...

If you had included the *not* qualifier with your original post, it would have been a different question... meriting an answer other than the one I gave you.

"MAny do, but if they can find a way to make money to better afford what they need, that usually tends to be a more productive and reliable path to establishing a secure baseline, especially because there are many needs that pretty much require a cash flow to meet, such as rent payments for a place to live. "...

So, since Mr. Brown was stealing luxury products, he was on "a more reliable path to establishing a secure baseline". This sounds suspiciously like one of your lectures on economics. [Wink]

"Since he was fully out of the current context of a discussion that was on wider cultural trends and had nothing to do with any specific individual case, Brown had no relevance at all here. "...

Was it not your whole purpose to excuse Brown's behavior with rationalizations derived from "wider cultural trends"?

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AI Wessex
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Hang on, I need to get more popcorn...ok, I'm back. Next?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
In what historical context do your comments accurately reflect the oppressive qualities of the Catholic Church against the inhabitants of Southern Ireland? You originally made this claim to bolster an novel theory that was experiencing factual congruency problems.
I brought up English oppression of Ireland. You needlessly introduced the Catholic Church here. We could go into a long digression about how Church policy during that time was explicitly designed to keep the poor not only poor, but fully compliant to subjugation to the nobility, but that's a much smaller factor in the immediate case than England having outright conquered Ireland and allying very oppressive tactics to try to force conversion, including, but not limited to, intentional starvation of its people.

quote:
If you had included the *not* qualifier with your original post, it would have been a different question... meriting an answer other than the one I gave you.

When one asks a very pointed yes or no question, the "not" of the inverse is implied.

I asked if the Irish were coming from a place where they were free at that point. You answered by pointing out the names and dates a couple of early irish immigrants. Not only was that not an answer to the question of whether Ireland was free at the point, it actively avoided addressing the fact that Ireland was, during the entire time period in question (up till 1921 for the majority of the island) suffering from very active oppression from the English conquerors that had invaded it and established control over it.

[ December 08, 2014, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
So, since Mr. Brown was stealing luxury products, he was on "a more reliable path to establishing a secure baseline".
We're not talking about the individual case of Brown here. If you want to take away a contextual comment about him, then it would be fair to say that it is very likely that his overall respect for law, authority, and property had been undermined by growing up in a culture where many people had been forced to put aside such concerns or even actively resist them for their own survival.

quote:
Was it not your whole purpose to excuse Brown's behavior with rationalizations derived from "wider cultural trends"?
It does not justify or excuse his actions in any way. That's the kind of absurd missing of the point that you can only reach by presupposing what you want me to be saying rather than paying attention to what I'm saying.

If you want to be able to reduce further overall incidences of such behavoir, it's important to understand the context and dynamics that cause it to arise. Especially in this case where exceptionally draconian crackdowns on the behavior- effectively trying to treat the symptoms- are likely to cause more problems, because you're effectively making the cause worse instead of helping to alleviate the societal oppression that leads to such disinvestment.

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noel c.
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"I brought up English oppression of Ireland. You needlessly introduced the Catholic Church here. "...

It appears that you have, again, included contradictory claims within not just a single post, but a single paragraph. Isn't the preceding statement at odds with this;

"... England having outright conquered Ireland and allying very oppressive tactics to try to 💥force conversion💥... "...

Your hypothesis can be dismantled from numerous angles, but you are undercutting even the limited argument that you have presented.

"WHen one asks a very pointed yes or no question, the "not" of the inverse is implied. "...

Are the words "implied", and "pointed" synonomous in your use of the English language?

"I asked if the Irish were coming from a place where they were free at that point. "...

To which I said "yes"!

Ireland has been politically, and economically, isolated for most of that island's history, and internal government functions, as we would recognize them, were administered primarily by the Catholic Church. You keep making the groundless assertion that it was the Church, and not an agrarian economic base, that was responsible for poverty.

Prove this first, and then show the necessary connection between poverty, and criminality.

"You answered by pointing out the names and dates a couple of early irish immigrants. "...

I pointed out that the Irish have been a fixture of the American experience from the very beginning... whereas organized crime was not. Can you explain this in a way that supports your theory?

"Ireland was free at the point, it actively avoided addressing the fact that Ireland was, during the entire time period in question (up till 1921 for the majority of the island) suffering from very active oppression from the English conquerors that had invaded it and established control over it. "...

I see broad claims, but zero support for them. How, specifically, was all of Ireland oppressed by the English? I will grant only problems in the Protestant north which, by the way, was and remains the only heavily industrialized area in Ireland. It is also the most prosperous... blame that on the English. [Wink]

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ScottF
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Pyr, couple questions for you:

1. How would you go about "helping to alleviate the societal oppression" that you feel is the root cause those behaviors?

2. Do you think that societal oppression is also the reason why black out-of-wedlock births have nearly tripled post civil-rights movement? If not, what do you think may have led to that dramatic increase?

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noel c.
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"It would be fair to say that it is very likely that his overall respect for law, authority, and property had been undermined by growing up in a culture where many people had been forced to put aside such concerns or even actively resist them for their own survival. "...

Are cigarillos a necessary element of "survival"?

"It does not justify or excuse his actions in any way. That's the kind of absurd missing of the point that you can only reach by presupposing what you want me to be saying rather than paying attention to what I'm saying. "...

Are you paying attention to what you are saying?

"If you want to be able to reduce further overall incidences of such behavoir, it's important to understand the context and dynamics that cause it to arise. Especially in this case where exceptionally draconian crackdowns on the behavior- effectively trying to treat the symptoms- are likely to cause more problems, because you're effectively making the cause worse instead of helping to alleviate the societal oppression that leads to such disinvestment. "...

What "draconian crackdown" are you referring to... the one that allowed 25 local businesses to be burnt to the ground, the vast majority of which were minority owned?

[ December 08, 2014, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Ireland has been politically, and economically, isolated for most of that island's history, and internal government functions, as we would recognize them, were administered primarily by the Catholic Church. You keep making the groundless assertion that it was the Church, and not an agrarian economic base, that was responsible for poverty.
No- I keep asserting that it England's congest and subjugation of Ireland, which was fully completed in 1607 and lasted till 1921 that was a ke factor here, especially the way it acted to deliberately starve the people there and exacerbate the famines that occurred.

quote:
How, specifically, was all of Ireland oppressed by the English?
Military conquest. Political control and economic restrictions aimed at Catholics such that they could not act with any degree or personal or economic freedom? Active political disenfranchisement by barring Catholics from holding any public office? Deliberately withholding food supplies from the population at large during a famine, instead handing them over for use and profit by political allies? Do you really need a laundry list of English abuses from the time hey conquered Ireland until they gave up control over it in 1921?

quote:
I will grant only problems in the Protestant north which, by the way, was and remains the only heavily industrialized area in Ireland.
You mean the section which did convert, mostly due to heavy levels of immigration, and thus was not treated with the same degree of oppression? Amazing what happens when you allow people more freedom instead of deliberately impoverishing and starving them.
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