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Author Topic: UN Peacekeepers to occupy Ferguson Missouri
TomDavidson
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quote:
I only know that if there was any doubt about what the video shows happening (which seems pretty clear to me) then Brown's family and the media would not be letting it slide.
So, um, we have a media-fomented riot, and on the other hand people are letting it slide?
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Seneca
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And still no response to the fact that this same group of hustlers and race batters stirred up a protest because a police officer RETURNED FIRE at a thug who shot at him first.

Any of you have the courage to address that?

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TomDavidson
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Which group?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
And still no response to the fact that this same group of hustlers and race batters stirred up a protest because a police officer RETURNED FIRE at a thug who shot at him first.

First provide a link to the even that you're talking about. Why should anyone respond to random assertions of things that you want to assert happened?
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jasonr
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quote:
First provide a link to the even that you're talking about. Why should anyone respond to random assertions of things that you want to assert happened?
It was a well publicized case that was on the news a week or two. Very prominent and directly connected with Ferguson because the community was protesting that case too. By community, I'm referring to the same talking heads that are on the news talking about Ferguson. Whoever they get to talk about these things.

I can't be bothered to find the link for you, but the facts are as Seneca stated: someone was shot by an off duty police officer, allegedly after shooting at him.

Since the case seems to have vanished from the news cycle, I'm guessing it turned out the guy shot really did shoot first. If there was any doubt, I'm sure it would still be getting 24/7 coverage.

[ October 28, 2014, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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scifibum
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Yeah, he had gunpowder residue on his hands.

Does this count for your birthday present, jasonr?

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scifibum
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Never mind, I misremembered what you wanted.
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Seneca
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The governor of Missouri has declared a state of emegrency and deployed the national guard.

The FBI has issued a warning that they believe the grand jury verdict "will likely" lead to attacks on police and key points of infrastructure.

All because the race hustlers wanted more ratings and to keep Balkanizing our country over one dead guy who attacked a cop, meanwhile hundreds of young black males are murdered every year in Chicago and Holder, Obama, Sharpton and Jackson are mostly silent on this.

And as for irony, the parents of Michael Brown actually had the audacity to go to the UN and try to demand them to get involved in this as a "human rights violation." The UN, uncharacteristically in a rare moment of sanity, told them to get lost.

[ November 18, 2014, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
All because...
It seems to me that you could dramatically improve the signal-to-noise ratio of your posts by just deleting any sentence that you start this way, Seneca.
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Seneca
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I suppose it is inconvenient for the modern gun control/police brutality/race hustling narrative to actually remember where most violence does occur in this country and who it involves.

Silly reality! Why should it matter when we need Fundamental Transformation?

One person is dead and we face a massive state of emergency and national guard mobilization.

Hundreds are dead and not a peep out of these agitators. Why is that?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I suppose it is inconvenient for the modern gun control/police brutality/race hustling narrative to actually remember where most violence does occur in this country and who it involves.
Poor areas, and the poor?

quote:
Hundreds are dead and not a peep out of these agitators.
Is it seriously your contention that those people "agitating" in Ferguson have not "peeped" about the crime rate among the poor in Chicago?
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NobleHunter
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You know, if the local authorities had treated this incident with the same level of attention the murders in Chicago, people would be a lot less upset.
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Is it seriously your contention that those people "agitating" in Ferguson have not "peeped" about the crime rate among the poor in Chicago?
I admit that I have never heard about any significant protest ever getting caused by the killing of a poor black person by another poor (or for that matter rich) black person.

That nobody gives a damn about black-on-black killings is actually much more indicative about how structural racism works, and how harmful it is towards black people. Black lives and deaths don't seem to matter, unless there's a white person involved to give them *real* meaning.

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NobleHunter
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Ouch, Aris, that's painful.

Though I suspect it helps that a narrative of bad cops is easier to deal with than one dealing with poverty and structural inequality extending that ultimate extend beyond racism. It's also easier to 'other' Ferguson than Chicago.

[ November 18, 2014, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
[QUOTE]
That nobody gives a damn about black-on-black killings is actually much more indicative about how structural racism works, and how harmful it is towards black people. Black lives and deaths don't seem to matter, unless there's a white person involved to give them *real* meaning.

It could be this, but an alternate explanation could be that the white officer in Ferguson didn't give meaning to the event just by being white, but rather that the act of violence from a white person to a black person was sufficient to allow the causes of 'white privilege' and 'anti-racism' to swoop in and brand the event as being about their movements. The public's interest in Ferguson may have less to do with its perception of the particulars of the event (e.g. that viewers will listen up once they hear it involves a white person) and more to do with whether the events get branded as something grandiose that the audience will need to tune in to see.

I'm not suggesting that the events is Ferguson did or didn't involve racism or so-called white privilege, but rather that perhaps certain groups chose to capitalize on these narratives and make theatre out of what otherwise would have been a nasty but small-time event.

Aris may well be right that the average person may not be that excited to hear about poor black-on-black killing in Chicago, but I suspect the average person is also not that interested in hearing about any kind of random low-level criminal activity. Mob action - people are interested in that, it's big. But individuals perpetrating one-off crimes, that's no big deal, white or black. The reason Ferguson got so big, I think, isn't because it involved a killing, but because the narrative that was built around it regarding racism in America turned into a big thing and became much larger than one killing or even one police department.

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Aris Katsaris
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My model of the Democratic and Republican political leaderships is as follows.

Republican leadership: Injustice doesn't matter when it's done on black people, therefore black-on-black crime doesn't matter.
Democratic leadership: Injustice doesn't matter when it's done by black people, therefore black-on-black crime doesn't matter.

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D.W.
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There is also the prevalence of those who are against guns in general but concede that the cops need them and are mostly OK with this. Then a police officer shoots someone who is unarmed. A lot of people are willing to give this life or death power to authority but when they see it allegedly abused they freak the hell out.

Then you mix in the age of this "needless" death and alleged racism. An incident like this presses A LOT of buttons that many people are not comfortable articulating. That level of discomfort has to express itself somehow.

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PSRT
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That model doesn't work very well as it fails to predict things like the my brothers keeper initiative, or funding for schools meals programs
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Republican leadership: Injustice doesn't matter when it's done on black people, therefore black-on-black crime doesn't matter.
Democratic leadership: Injustice doesn't matter when it's done by black people, therefore black-on-black crime doesn't matter.

I think the Democratic version, for better or worse, is more like: Black-on-black crime does not represent an abuse of power, and is therefore a tragedy rather than an injustice.
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stilesbn
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Republican leadership: Injustice doesn't matter when it's done on black people, therefore black-on-black crime doesn't matter.
Democratic leadership: Injustice doesn't matter when it's done by black people, therefore black-on-black crime doesn't matter.

I think the Democratic version, for better or worse, is more like: Black-on-black crime does not represent an abuse of power, and is therefore a tragedy rather than an injustice.
I suspect depending on the individual it could be a little of both. I would also wager that they are deeply sub-conscious and rarely considered as part of someones moral framework.
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TomDavidson
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Well, I think it actually goes deeper than that.

To a liberal, an injustice is when the powerful leverage resources to harm the powerless.

To a conservative, an injustice is when someone violates the law and goes unpunished.

So, to a liberal, assuming all else is equal and racial prejudice isn't playing a role in this story at all, it is still not an injustice when a poor black man shoots another poor black man, even if he isn't convicted of it. The failure to secure a conviction doesn't disgust a liberal the way it would a conservative, because the conservative sees only that someone has violated a law and gone unpunished; the liberal sees an unjust system that drove the poor to prey on each other, but does not in this specific scenario necessarily see a call to action.

To a conservative, in fact, the idea that people are violently rioting to protest the legal killing of someone who was probably committing a crime is doubly infuriating. You have people breaking laws and using as their justification for doing so the assertion that they're upset about someone else doing something perfectly legal to a lawbreaker. This is very difficult for a conservative brain to understand. From a liberal perspective, however, it is almost inconceivable that someone can look at Ferguson and not see the far-reaching, pervasive power disparities at play in that region, and agree that this shooting and the various official responses to it fit into a pattern of arguably legal but absolutely unjust behavior.

[ November 18, 2014, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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stilesbn
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I would add a third element to the conservative side that it seems very bait and switch with some Catch 22. While liberals are arguing to fix the larger power disparities, to a conservative it seems that the only choice the police officer could have made to avoid the riots would have been to lay down and die.
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NobleHunter
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The riots aren't so much about the actions of the officer as they are about the actions of his superiors.
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stilesbn
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
The riots aren't so much about the actions of the officer as they are about the actions of his superiors.

I suppose you're right. I forgot some of the context.
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
To a liberal, an injustice is when the powerful leverage resources to harm the powerless.

To a conservative, an injustice is when someone violates the law and goes unpunished

What am I then, when I call it an injustice when something bad happens to people who don't deserve it, regardless of whether they violated the law or not, regardless of whether they're powerful or powerless?

quote:
So, to a liberal, assuming all else is equal and racial prejudice isn't playing a role in this story at all, it is still not an injustice when a poor black man shoots another poor black man, even if he isn't convicted of it.
If that's the case, that these "liberals" would equate an innocent victim and a murdering criminal, just because they're both poor, or because they're both black.

And that's where the structural racism comes into play with the end result of black victims: Instead of seeing individuals, some of them innocent and some of them guilty, some of which should be protected, and some of which should be locked away, all they see is black faces. And because all the establishment sees is black faces, the black criminals are left free to prey upon the black victims.

These "liberals" are blind to the fact that in places with big criminal rates, the primary power disparity and the primary source of societal injustice, comes from the power of the criminal gangs to prey on their victims.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by stilesbn:
I would add a third element to the conservative side that it seems very bait and switch with some Catch 22. While liberals are arguing to fix the larger power disparities, to a conservative it seems that the only choice the police officer could have made to avoid the riots would have been to lay down and die.

We know that's exactly what the protesters wanted. They wanted to officer to let Brown kill him.

How do we know that? Later, when a black thug shot at an officer first, unprovoked, and the officer fired back, the same mobs and race-hustlers protested.

So it's not OK for a police officer to shoot back, even when fired on first. The police simply have to roll over and let these criminals kill them. That is what these protesters demand.

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PSRT
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quote:
If that's the case, that these "liberals" would equate an innocent victim and a murdering criminal, just because they're both poor, or because they're both black.
There isn't an equivalency happening. That is in your imagination. "Injustice," and "Just," are not the only axes on which actions are judged. Even in Tom's description, making the leap that you did says more about your thought processes than about what Tom said.

quote:
These "liberals" are blind to the fact that in places with big criminal rates, the primary power disparity and the primary source of societal injustice, comes from the power of the criminal gangs to prey on their victims.
This is simply wrong. Even in places in the United States with high crime rate, poverty, which in our country is structural, kills far more people than crime does. By orders of magnitude. The people are powerless, not because of crime, but because of structural poverty. THe societal injustice occurs primarily because of poverty. And that structural poverty is largely driven by policies that were extremely racist.

You know how you were talking before about there being practical differences in how we address the universe if there is a god or not, and hedging increasing the various dangers? Well, pretending that crime is a larger source of injustice than the poverty that causes that crime has the same effect. It prevents us from addressing the real problems, by focusing our efforts on "bringing to justice," the people who are most victimized by the structural problems in our society.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Well, pretending that crime is a larger source of injustice than the poverty that causes that crime has the same effect.
Poverty and crime cause each other, it's not a one way street -- and frankly the 'crime leads to poverty' direction seems to me more dominant than the other way around.

quote:
It prevents us from addressing the real problems, by focusing our efforts on "bringing to justice," the people who are most victimized by the structural problems in our society.
I'd immediately end the "war on drugs" which seems to me the sole contestant for white-on-black oppression that is currently hurting black people more than black-on-black oppression does, but violent crime is a different thing altogether and it must be stopped hard, even if it makes supposed "liberals" feel racist when they oppose black gangs.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
quote:
Well, pretending that crime is a larger source of injustice than the poverty that causes that crime has the same effect.
Poverty and crime cause each other, it's not a one way street -- and frankly the 'crime leads to poverty' direction seems to me more dominant than the other way around.
I would suggest that neither one necessarily causes the other, but that both are primarily caused by any system where distribution of resources is blatantly unequal (earned or not). People will typically commit economic crimes when they perceive there is sufficient incentive to do so; e.g. having not much to lose, getting very much for relatively little work, or feeling justified in some way due to disparity that existed before they were born. Crimes of passion, such as killing your wife's lover, I would put in a different category. Crime related to gangs, drugs and theft could qualify as economic crime most of the time.

Poverty is obviously 'caused' by the results of an economic system's function, and even though various economic systems have existed through history they have all involved a few people owning most things. It cannot be a mystery why various 'have-nots' would shrug off abstract ideas like laws when the basic physical landscape is against them. Force and fear will keep potential criminals in check to some extent, but much of the time will just encourage stealth.

If everyone somehow really knew that crime didn't pay (which it does) they wouldn't do it; the system therefore 'encourages' it somehow. That criminals make the gambler's mistake of thinking it will pay more often than not, is another matter. In white collar crime, it probably does. Some tiny fraction of people would commit crimes no matter what the conditions of life were like; let's include here serial killers, kleptomaniacs, and maybe economic trolls. But most people who have stuff won't risk losing it over minor mayhem. The obvious solution is to make sure they have stuff.

quote:
quote:
It prevents us from addressing the real problems, by focusing our efforts on "bringing to justice," the people who are most victimized by the structural problems in our society.
I'd immediately end the "war on drugs" which seems to me the sole contestant for white-on-black oppression that is currently hurting black people more than black-on-black oppression does, but violent crime is a different thing altogether and it must be stopped hard, even if it makes supposed "liberals" feel racist when they oppose black gangs.
I agree about the war on crime. I really feel that most economic crime is a systemic result and that using greater force to fight crime is really counter-productive compared to changing the system to fight poverty. Increasing police power is a loss for everyone, whereas raising the quality of life for the bottom ~25% would be a win for everyone in one way or another. Crimes of passion will likely always exist and there is little point even discussing that, I think.
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PSRT
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quote:
Poverty and crime cause each other, it's not a one way street -- and frankly the 'crime leads to poverty' direction seems to me more dominant than the other way around.
Not on a structural level. In the United States, at least, most of the areas with high crime rates suffered from white flight in the 40's and 50's, which led to those areas being poor... and then crime rate started ratcheting up. The poverty predated the crime.


quote:
I'd immediately end the "war on drugs" which seems to me the sole contestant for white-on-black oppression that is currently hurting black people more than black-on-black oppression does, but violent crime is a different thing altogether and it must be stopped hard, even if it makes supposed "liberals" feel racist when they oppose black gangs
I don't disagree that violent crime must be stopped. Problem is, the criminal justice system in the US treats black violent crime more harshly than it does white violent crime. So the "stopping hard," actions are themselves racist... and living under that sort of oppression is another driver of violent crime.
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Fenring
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Darn, in my previous post I meant to say I agree about ending the war on drugs, not crime...
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NobleHunter
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Anyone else twitchy about the pre-emptive State of Emergency thing?
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jasonr
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quote:
Anyone else twitchy about the pre-emptive State of Emergency thing?
Unfortunately, it's warranted. If there is no indictment, there will be riots.
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Seneca
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...and the grand jury returned the expected result: no indictment on any of the 5 charges presented because, surprise surprise, you can't attack a police officer, or for that matter anyone else. Kudos to the AG for noting in his speech that not only may officers use deadly force to defend themselves but also regular civilians can as well.

Cue the riots and race hustlers screaming bloody murder and the bounties on Wilson and Wilson's family members will go from $5,000.00 to $50,000.00.

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Adam Masterman
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A totally unsurprising verdict from the most demonstrably racist institution in our society.
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Seneca
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Yes. That jury with several blacks was clearly racist, they must have been self-hating right?

One thing that the MO AG tried to emphasize in his statement was that only the grand jury has seen and heard ALL the facts. To second guess their wisdom on incomplete information would be foolish. Given that the GJ probably wasn't sequestered, they knew how much pressure there was to return at least ONE indictment and no doubt they were thinking about the lives it might save but they were courageous and chose the truth instead of the easy way out and caving to the blood-thirsty mob that is now wrecking havoc.

You can stream some of the scanners from the area.
Here is one:
http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/17925/web
Dozens of shots fired (not by police), stores being looted, several cops sounding like they were in serious trouble. What a nightmare, and thanks to Sharpton, Holder and all the race hustlers wanted to use this to Balkanize america. Anyone who dies or is injured in this violence is on THEIR hands, and I say that as both a black man and as a retired cop. Much like screaming "fire" in a crowded theater, the race hustlers have stirred up the mob in Ferguson to a frothing, writing mass of anger, and for that there is no excuse. Justice is supposed to be impartial. Now, whenever the media and the race-politics crowd choose to shine a national spotlight on any case, the jury there will be wondering about whether they should give the right verdict/indictment or the "best" one for the peace and safety of their community. It is sad and sick to see our system abused this way.

No doubt the goal now will be to make the riots and violence as bad as possible to "send the message" to the "next jury/grand jury" not to make the same "mistake."

[ November 24, 2014, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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D.W.
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Fire in a crowded theater... That's an excellent point. Messed up world when reporting on racism is used to cause riots instead of trying to help improve things. But I guess Molotovs make for better TV and tweets.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Yes. That jury with several blacks was clearly racist, they must have been self-hating right?
I don't know the composition of the GJ, but they haven't released the count of votes of individual participants nor said if the vote was unanimous.

Riots are bad and weren't inevitable. They shouldn't have happened, but neither should blacks be institutionally persistent targets of police abuse.

[ November 25, 2014, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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jasonr
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I feel sorry for the protesters that Michael Brown is their poster child, that he is the rallying cry for their cause. How sad for them.

In this supposed "epidemic" of police shootings of young black males, that Brown was the best they could come up with - that he is to be the jumping off point for our renewed conversation on race in America - truly embarrassing.

I agree with the protesters about one thing - it's clear from the press conference that the prosecutor never held any hope of obtaining a conviction had the matter gone to trial. It's clear that had the choice been his, he would never have taken the case even to the grand jury. I would speculate that certain political masters informed him that he would make the case come hell and high water and he did what he needed to do - put it before the grand jury with all of the evidence, crossed every T and dotted every I and then washed his hands of it.

quote:
Riots are bad and weren't inevitable
Uhh huh, sure they weren't. I wonder what odds they were giving in Vegas on the chances of a "peaceful" protest? Instead of rioting and looting, the protesters should have pooled their money and placed a bet and then staid home - they would all have come away millionaires.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Uhh huh, sure they weren't. I wonder what odds they were giving in Vegas on the chances of a "peaceful" protest?
Since Brown was shot there have been plenty of questionable shootings by police, and all that I've seen have been black males. If you do go to Vegas you might also place a bet on how long before the next unarmed black male is shot and killed by police, and another on how many are shot before an unarmed white male gets it.
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