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Author Topic: UN Peacekeepers to occupy Ferguson Missouri
D.W.
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PSRT, both you and Pyr seem to suggest that *I* am offended by the phrase "black lives matter". I'm not. *I* am not trying to turn it into "all lives matter". I'm not even saying that is the better message.

Everything I've typed the last few pages has been a waste of time apparently. Criticism, or hell, advice even is now synonymous with opposition.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
I am black and I am offended by this message. Sane blacks want true equality, not to be elevated or given special focus.

Ah, so you're offended by an assertion that you made up, not anything that anyone said?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
PSRT, both you and Pyr seem to suggest that *I* am offended by the phrase "black lives matter". I'm not. *I* am not trying to turn it into "all lives matter". I'm not even saying that is the better message.

Not a direct claim, it's just that you're effectively advocating for those that do believe it, so "you" become the proxy for those whose argument you're making.
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PSRT
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quote:
PSRT, both you and Pyr seem to suggest that *I* am offended by the phrase "black lives matter". I'm not. *I* am not trying to turn it into "all lives matter". I'm not even saying that is the better message.
I apologize if it came across that you think you personally are offended by people who are telling people saying "all lives matter," to stop. I don't know if you are, or are not. You asked what the path was. I gave a path. It was a general you.
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D.W.
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You can retract your apology PSRT. The way you just phrased it, you do not owe me one. I AM offended by people who are telling people saying “all lives matter,” to stop. I am sympathetic to WHY they are doing so, but the ACT of doing so is (to borrow a phrase) hurtful.

I personally have not attempted to alter the message. I just do not believe there is a legitimate reason (even this one) to disparage those using an unambiguously positive message because there is the possibility they MAY be doing so for nefarious reasons. So keep proclaiming “black lives matter”, you’ll get no argument from me. If someone next to you shouts “all lives matter” I will nod in agreement. If you turn and shout to that person to shut up. I will defend them.

I don’t believe you owe me an apology. All indications are you still disapprove of my opinion.

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PSRT
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quote:
just do not believe there is a legitimate reason (even this one) to disparage those using an unambiguously positive message because there is the possibility they MAY be doing so for nefarious reasons
It doesn't even matter if they are doing so for nefarious reasons or not. Their actions are HARMFUL. And it is evil to tell people to say "Stop letting the harm that is being done to me continue."

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing... and sometimes "nothing" means "cause a distraction from the evil being done."

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D.W.
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In my world view, (which I concede may be deeply flawed) evil IS triumphing. I'm trying to do something.

Ok something just clicked. Maybe it's stupid, maybe not.

I see that fire is being fought with fire. I'm standing there saying, wouldn't water make more sense?

There ARE times when you fight fire with fire. Maybe this is one of them and I'm missing it. Maybe cooperation and inclusion with those who believe what they are doing to help is counter productive. Maybe alienating them IS necessary. Maybe it's like burning away healthy forest so the fire doesn't rage out of control.

I honestly don't know. I react to fire with water by default.


[ December 11, 2014, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Brian
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PSRT and Pyrtolin:

Have you heard the latest flap about the wrapping paper with 'swastikas' on it? It looks like they were going for some sort of Celtic knot and accidentally made a swastika as part of it.

Are all swastikas evil?

Are they inextricably linked to Nazi-ism from now on?
Are Indians to be reprimanded for having a bazillion of them spread across the countryside?

DW is saying that just because a select group are using them for evil, it does not make the symbol itself evil.
PSRT's last post seems to say that it does taint all of them.

Yes?


Pyrtolin also seems to be saying that rather than blacks bending over backwards to get whites to help, the whites should be bending over backwards because that is the only way the blacks will accept their help.
I ask you, in all of human history, when has that ever worked?
You condemned DW for only wanting to help as long as there was something in it for him.
No kidding. There is a reason we beatify saints: because they are the few who manage to rise above human nature.

I'm not saying that blacks need to suck up to the Man or whatever, but slapping down people who want to help just because they didn't phrase their support in the politically correct way is counter-productive.

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D.W.
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Two criticisms Brion,
First, I hope that "All Lives Matter" can't be interpreted as a swastika. At least not yet...

Second, that still makes it sound like I personally want something out of this. I get that by stating this about human nature I became some sort of spokesperson for selfishness. Still odd to hear.

I believe my life matters. If "all lives matter" resonates with me, it's not because I'm validated by the fact that others agree that my life matters.

If "black lives matter" is a message from blacks to blacks and is meant to read "YOUR life matters" then those here telling me that "all lives matter" is a hurtful distraction makes a little more sense.

They are concerned that blacks may miss the message of elevating their own self worth if the message shifts to "all lives matter".

I am dismissive of that theory, but I'm not the intended audience.

Maybe? Nobody has come out and stated that plainly so I'm grasping at straws here.

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PSRT
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quote:
I'm not saying that blacks need to suck up to the Man or whatever, but slapping down people who want to help just because they didn't phrase their support in the politically correct way is counter-productive.
Not because their support isn't politically correct. Because their support is phrased in such a way as to mean that the problem will not be addressed.

I don't think the swastika argument matches what I am saying.

Rather, what I am saying is that a rising tide may lift all boats, but if some of the boats have holes in them, they won't rise with the tide. They'll stay sunk.

The "all lives matter," crowd is trying to lift all boats. Noble, yes. But by using the same phrasing, at the same time, as the people who are trying to get the boat they are riding in patched, the boat that needs patching will not get the attention it needs, because the people who are saying "all lives matter," have more boats, and the boats they are riding in have larger bullhorns, and they got those larger bullhorns because the people in charge of fixing boats like them better to begin with.

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D.W.
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To be fair to PSRT, I have suggested the "rising tide" theory to separate racism from a more generalized inequality which disproportionately effects blacks.

That this statement would be blurred into what we've been discussing the past 3 pages or so is partly my fault.

They aren't all trying to raise all boats though. Some acknowledge that some boats need to catch up and be raised more. YOU are telling them what they mean instead of asking.

[ December 11, 2014, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
DW is saying that just because a select group are using them for evil, it does not make the symbol itself evil.
This is misleading because, again, no one has claimed that the symbol itself has any valence. The complaint is about the application of the symbol in a particular context where it being applied in a hurtful way.

The swastika/manji/similar symbol comparison you made similarly fails along contextual boundaries. IT is hurtful for arbitrary use in western society because of the way western society has actively misused it in recent memory in a very hurtful way, to the point that accidentally using it evinces an active disregard for that historical context, in the same way that the problem any other breach in etiquette lies directly in fact that it implies that you do not care enough about the person that is affected by it to make the effort to behave respectfully toward them.

When you get out of the western/European context, the rules change, and is mostly up to an agreement between the Jewish and relevant culture on where the line should lie, not up to us to dictate tot hem what is or isn't acceptable.

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PSRT
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quote:
OU are telling them what they mean instead of asking.
I'm not talking about meaning. I'm talking about effect. I don't care about motivation so I much as I care about results. It doesn't matter whether my intentions are good or not, if the action I take results in harm that I was forewarned of, I am culpable for that harm.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Pyrtolin also seems to be saying that rather than blacks bending over backwards to get whites to help, the whites should be bending over backwards because that is the only way the blacks will accept their help.
What does "accepting" have to do with anything. I'm saying that people who want to help should be making an effort to act in a way that's helpful, because acting in a way that's harmful doesn't magically become helpful if you justify it by trying o say "I'm just trying to help"

When someone demonstrates that they're actively ignorant of the problem, never mind what actions are helpful, it is not rejecting their help to ask them to stop asserting they know what the right thing to do is and instead make an effort to understand the situation and what it will take to be helpful.

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D.W.
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So in our current social context, you feel that certain groups have "claimed" the phrase "All lives matter" in such a profound way that it is now hurtful for anyone to use it outside that context?

Are decorations on children toys which include rainbows now exclusively meant for homosexuals?

Should we stop using smiley faces of wall-mart won a lawsuit suggesting that we are abusing their copy written logo?

If a new brutal group appeared and carried out mass killings and wore a heart on a t-shirt while doing so consistently would we cancel Valentine’s day?

Can you understand why declaring a phrase or an image "off limits" could be offensive to someone? Can you understand how ALLOWING a phrase supporting equality to be "claimed" by a shared enemy (one who does not want equality) is anathema to some?

I will not allow others to control my language and turn night to day and good to bad. I'm not that gullible.

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D.W.
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
OU are telling them what they mean instead of asking.
I'm not talking about meaning. I'm talking about effect. I don't care about motivation so I much as I care about results. It doesn't matter whether my intentions are good or not, if the action I take results in harm that I was forewarned of, I am culpable for that harm.
We are on the exact same page.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing... and sometimes "nothing" means "cause a distraction from the evil being done."

There are some important and far-reaching changes that need to be made in America; these include oversight of law enforcement and the intelligence services, campaign finance, monetary policy, military foreign policy, the medical system, and more. These are critical and fundamental issues.

It is my contention that huge amounts of time and energy spent in a furor about how to correctly phrase slogans for race-relations topics distracts from the really important issues in America, and shifts social media focus away from these issues towards 'hot-topic' issues whose substance is often largely about repeating the appropriate slogan and stepping in line with the meme. You've said to D.W. that #alllivesmatter isn't wrong but nevertheless undermines #Blacklives matter because it sidelines the issue at hand. I think that this cause being trumpeted so loudly sidelines other issues at hand. People tend not to have great multi-tasking awareness and will focus on one or two things at a time that seem important. Do you think this should be one of those?

I'm not saying that fighting racism isn't important, and many of us can certainly focus on more than one issue at a time. But if we want to talk about using our energies wisely to fight systemic evils, and then turn around and waste time insisting that "all lives matter" helps to perpetuate those evils, we're spending more currency than we're gaining in getting real work done.

America is probably one of the least racist countries in the world, and although there is still room to improve I think a lot of the problems that are perceived to be an issue of race relations would actually be solved by addressing more fundamental problems such as the state of the political and economic system.

I don't see how someone can look at the Senate Torture Report and say with a straight face that the cause to adopt is #Blacklivesmatter. The government would absolutely love popular focus to be on the race issue and not on the CIA and NSA. After all, telling people to man up and say the proper slogan is easy; telling people they need to jump on a social bandwagon is easy. But doing something on an individual basis to help change intelligence culture - that's hard. Small wonder that I don't see FB posts all the time about the NSA and CIA, since bloggers would have a tough time claiming the moral high ground that they're fighting the good fight in that area.

[ December 11, 2014, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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Brian
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So if the black captains are saying 'patch the black boats before you let the tide in' and a few jerks take umbrage and say 'why just focus on the black boats. Patch all the boats that need it.', then the harbor manager is not allowed to say 'make sure all boats are patched before letting the tide in."? He/She/It has to go with an unnecessarily narrow focus when a broader proclamation makes more sense?
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D.W.
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/me backs away slowly.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian:
So if the black captains are saying 'patch the black boats before you let the tide in' and a few jerks take umbrage and say 'why just focus on the black boats. Patch all the boats that need it.', then the harbor manager is not allowed to say 'make sure all boats are patched before letting the tide in."? He/She/It has to go with an unnecessarily narrow focus when a broader proclamation makes more sense?

Way to not pay attention and once again miscast what's happening to justify yourself instead of actually listening to the complaint at hand.

To be specific, the harbormaster here is saying "Stop talking about patches- let the tide in because all boats will float, if they don't float, then they're not boats."

[ December 11, 2014, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
There are some important and far-reaching changes that need to be made in America; these include oversight of law enforcement and the intelligence services, campaign finance, monetary policy, military foreign policy, the medical system, and more. These are critical and fundamental issues.
http://asofterworld.com/index.php?id=573

quote:
I don't understand / your complaint.
There totally is a / straight pride march.
That same day, too. / On all the other streets.

They're also issues taht get to have the headlines anytime they want to, all the time, every day, while racil concerns get sidelined.

Again you're making the false assertion that people aren't concerned about those just because they're saying "stop trying to tell minorities that they're not allowed to even have a small chance to voice their own concerns because they're not as important as the concerns that you already get to have front and center every day"

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Brian
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At risk of 'telling them what to do', I will simply comment that if the black protesters had gone with 'all lives matter, not just white ones' we would be in a much better position.
Or even 'black lives also matter!'.

I know the trend is to find the shortest, most easily remembered slogan you can, but this often leads to paring away some of the important context.

And I know that I am picking nits - but this entire discussion started because of nitpicking.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I will simply comment that if the black protesters had gone with 'all lives matter, not just white ones' we would be in a much better position.
You'd be more comfortable, certainly, but the message would sort have been lost, since its not all lives that are being systematically devalued.

Why spend effort blaming them for not idiot-proofing the message (something that's impossible) instead of actually trying to listen to them and understand the situation?

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Seneca
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The phrasing is not an accident. The real racists, the race hustlers like Sharpton, Holder, Jackson, etc, want Americans more divided than unified on race. They WANT racism to continue or else they lose relevance and they lose power and influence. They WANT to Balkanize America.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
The phrasing is not an accident. The real racists, the race hustlers like Sharpton, Holder, Jackson, etc, want Americans more divided than unified on race. They WANT racism to continue or else they lose relevance and they lose power and influence. They WANT to Balkanize America.

Because people that won't let other ignore a problem are totally to blame for the problem. IF they'd just let everyone pretend there wasn't a problem, we'd all be happy and no one would have to actually do anything about the elephant in the room.
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D.W.
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Because that idiot-proofing proved necessary to avoid being manipulated by those who wanted you to say "all lives matter is wrong".

It's easy to see that now (for some of us) but it's not something I believe anyone should have anticipated. It wasn't a mistake to use "Black lives matter". Saying "all lives matter is wrong/a distraction" was the mistake. (even if true)

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Brian
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quote:
Way to not pay attention and once again miscast what's happening to justify yourself instead of actually listening to the complaint at hand
This is really getting tiring, Pyrtolin.

I'm not saying it is all about me. I am saying it is all about clear communication.

No is saying they can't voice their concerns. Well, some are. But not on this forum.

The only thing I am saying is that you can't latch onto a single meaning of a phase and decide that every time someone uses that phrase they must mean that one single meaning of it.

I get that you don't want the protest to be drowned out by everyday concerns. The squeaky wheel won't get the grease if no-one hears it squeaking.

What I am saying, and what I think DW started out as saying, is that we should be greasing all of the wheels as a good maintenance policy. And when someone says "yeah, good idea. grease up all the wheels while you are at it" it doesn't mean they want to keep that one wheel dry.

[ December 11, 2014, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Brian ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I will not allow others to control my language and turn night to day and good to bad. I'm not that gullible.
Not is your grandmother when you point out that she's not sending you clothes in your size as a gift. I mean, it's the thought that counts, to be certain, but when someone stands up and says that they're actively and intentionally not going to be fooled by listening to what the recipient actually feels, wants, or needs, perhaps there's a better thought that could be used.
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Fenring
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Pyr, I'm just saying that the breath it takes to issue the phrase "don't say all lives matter" could be used to say something about any number of important issues, but instead orthodoxy on one issue is being pursued. Some people (not necessarily anyone here) spend their time correcting others regarding which slogans they utter, and are angry when they are defied. Aside from the fact that I'm against controlling the realm of language in order to further someone's narrative (which in my opinion always leads down a dangerous road), I think this kind of 'correction' also shows a kind of zeal that I wish was expressed in other realms that don't have such emotional overtones (such as the financial sector).

I understand that every issue needs its day, but I personally know people who have taken this particular issue so much to heart that I feel there's no room in them at present for the larger issues. The sound of lockstep can easily sound encouraging for people who believe in a cause, but I think it is in all our interests to realize that it is really the sound of terror.

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Brian
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quote:
To be specific, the harbormaster here is saying "Stop talking about patches- let the tide in because all boats will float, if they don't float, then they're not boats."
Way to not pay attention to what I was actually writing, and assuming that I fit into the niche you were ready to argue against.

I changed the analogy to the boat one specifically to match up to PSRT's post. So when I say that the harbormaster is saying something, you don't get to change it to fit your view of what is going on.
Change your view to fit the facts.

[ December 11, 2014, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Brian ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
What I am saying, and what I think DW started out as saying, is that we should be greasing all of the wheels as a good maintenance policy.
Which is a non-controversial statement that no one has voiced any objection to. The objection is to using it to interrupt and drown out someone that's pointing out that a specific wheel urgently needs direct attention.

Someone's dying of thirst, and instead of getting them water, or even letting other people help get them water, you're stopping everyone to tell them "everyone should drink eight glasses a day if you want to stay hydrated" over and over again.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Pyr, I'm just saying that the breath it takes to issue the phrase "don't say all lives matter" could be used to say something about any number of important issues, but instead orthodoxy on one issue is being pursued.
Because, of course, it's such a waste of time and energy to show respect for the people who are currently suffering because that phrase is being used to silence them. Their active and current complaints don't matter, just what you think people should be doing instead.
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Brian
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quote:
Someone's dying of thirst, and instead of getting them water, or even letting other people help get them water, you're stopping everyone to tell them "everyone should drink eight glasses a day if you want to stay hydrated" over and over again.
Who is the 'you' in this sentence?
It sure as hell isn't me, because I just got done pointing out that just because the thirsty guy is asking for water, milk is okay, too.

quote:
Which is a non-controversial statement that no one has voiced any objection to
Apparently you just changed your handle to 'no one'.
Because that is what I have been saying this entire time. You just refuse to accept that, insisting I'm saying something more.

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Brian
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anyway, I'm out for the day. I just tried to point out that you were hung up on semantics.
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D.W.
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quote:
Someone's dying of thirst, and instead of getting them water, or even letting other people help get them water, you're stopping everyone to tell them "everyone should drink eight glasses a day if you want to stay hydrated" over and over again.
Nobody here, has spoken much about people going for the water or being stopped.

1: We are thirsty! We are thirsty! We are thirsty!

2: Everyone should have equal access to water!

1: Be quiet, YOU already have water.

2: Yea... wait... what?

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian:
Who is the 'you' in this sentence?
It sure as hell isn't me, because I just got done pointing out that just because the thirsty guy is asking for water, milk is okay, too.


And not getting water. It doesn't matter what of the million possible indisputably true things you are pointing is- the problem is that you're still actively distracting people from getting some kind of liquid instead of listening and helping get liquid. And even standing up for those trying to offer bags of water right out of the ocean as a solution.

quote:
quote:
Which is a non-controversial statement that no one has voiced any objection to
Apparently you just changed your handle to 'no one'.
Because that is what I have been saying this entire time. You just refuse to accept that, insisting I'm saying something more.

No one has objected to the content of the message. What has been objected to is the way that message is being used to marginalize and drown out people that are trying to voice a direct and specific concern. As long as you keep conflating people asking you to stop taking actions that are silencing other with objections to the technical meaning of the words that you're using to silence others, you're going to miss the point and the meaning of what the other people are saying.
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D.W.
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"the way that message is being used" may be perception rather than reality. Did the president of the school use it that way? Or was she 'corrected' because someone else did and now that phrase is forever tainted, so say we all?
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Pyr, I'm just saying that the breath it takes to issue the phrase "don't say all lives matter" could be used to say something about any number of important issues, but instead orthodoxy on one issue is being pursued.
Because, of course, it's such a waste of time and energy to show respect for the people who are currently suffering because that phrase is being used to silence them. Their active and current complaints don't matter, just what you think people should be doing instead.
You seem to be mistaken; it is the people on board with #Blacklivesmatter that are the ones telling people what they should be doing and saying. They are pursuing orthodoxy on an issue that is a matter of opinion. But you're right that "don't tell me what to say" does count as telling someone else what to say; it is an infringement on their message in the same way as "don't enslave other men" is an infringement on a slaver's desire to have slaves.

I have no problem, by the way, with trying to show respect to people who are suffering. I think the way to show that respect is to...I dunno, write your congressman, come up with workable solutions, maybe donate money or volunteer with the ACLU. Chastising people online isn't helping although I'm sure it feels to online crusaders like it is. Your example of the grandmother's gift is a perfect example of how feeling like you're helping isn't the same as helping. D.W., I think, is suggesting that trying to force orthodoxy on this topic is hurtful rather than helpful to the greater cause. People think they're helping because they're acting in an indignant fashion and posting material; but those all revolve around the feeling felt by the poster, that his feeling of indignance and solidarity is equivalent to having made a change for the better. But is that really true? It almost seems to be more about making oneself feel good by repeating the slogan than about figuring out how to quietly change one's life in order to help others.

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D.W.
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I'm not against orthodoxy. To me, this is a VERY special case. Because in order to attain orthodoxy you are being forced to speak out against your own goal.

It is the sinister nature of this trap that I'm drawing attention to. I agree with Pyr and PSRT that distraction is hurting the issue. In THIS singular case, extra care must be made to avoid distraction without shooting yourself in the foot.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
"the way that message is being used" may be perception rather than reality.


So when people say that the phrase is hurting them, you say they're wrong? You know better than they do whether or not something hurts to them?

quote:
Did the president of the school use it that way? Or was she 'corrected' because someone else did and now that phrase is forever tainted, so say we all?
She used it in a context where it is currently and actively tainted and causes people pain because of the way that it's being abused. Those people pointed out how it's causing them pain, and she apologized for her mistake.

Permanently? Who knows. It might get there is people keep up amping up the attack and denying the way it has currently been weaponized instead of paying attention to the root issue because the ongoing sanctity of the phrase is, apparently, more important to them than addressing the real problems that people are trying to put on the table. And, especially, if people who have the gall to be sensitive to the way others are affected by what they say and apologize for accidentally stepping into a mess are in turn castigated for it. Keep rubbing it in and it will eventually gain perpetual status as a tool for perpetuating racism.

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