Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » UN Peacekeepers to occupy Ferguson Missouri (Page 31)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 55 pages: 1  2  3  ...  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  ...  53  54  55   
Author Topic: UN Peacekeepers to occupy Ferguson Missouri
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
You seem to be mistaken; it is the people on board with #Blacklivesmatter that are the ones telling people what they should be doing and saying.
How horrible that people express pain when a phrase taht has been used to hurt them is used in a context that associates it with the way that it's been used to hurt them.

Expressing pain over such is not telling people what they can or can't say. Nor is pointing out to them that what they're saying is hurtful. You can say it all you want, really- but you can't avoid it being hurtful to do so, regardless of how much you might want to pretend otherwise.

quote:
They are pursuing orthodoxy on an issue that is a matter of opinion.
The pain it causes is not a matter of opinion. Your belief that it shouldn't cause pain is certainly an opinion, but that opinion doesn't change the fact that it does hurt people and exacerbate problems.

You seem to be actively confusing conditional statemented made from strong familiarity with the issue "If you want to be helpful, this is what you need to do" with absolute prescriptions for how you need to behave. They don't dictate your behavior; they just don't let you stay secure in the ignorance of the harm that your actions cause despite the fact that you think you're helping.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
So when people say that the phrase is hurting them, you say they're wrong? You know better than they do whether or not something hurts to them?
Are you demanding a yes/no answer instead of what I have been saying over the last… 4 pages? If so I choose yes. They are hurting themselves and it pains me to watch them do it.

quote:
instead of paying attention to the root issue because the ongoing sanctity of the phrase is, apparently, more important to them than addressing the real problems that people are trying to put on the table.
Where in this thread has anyone even shown interest in addressing the “real problems”? What is on the table that our discussion is distracting from? I’m happy to drop it. I accept that we will never see eye to eye on it.

I don’t particularly enjoy being seen as the villain working against a cause I believe in. I’m not here for the warm fuzzies of being part of the consensus.

[ December 11, 2014, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Being a patient, i.e. the one with the pain, does not make a person a doctor. When the patient starts correcting people volunteering to give medical aid and tells them what procedures need to be used, their position of suffering might just as soon come from a place of ignorance as one of insight. Telling people that they cannot know what is right because they are not the ones asking for help is completely divisive and also wrong.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let's run with the medical analogy for a second.
The doctor represents the public. The patient is the black population.

Patient: Doctor, someone keeps pouring poison in my soup!
Doctor: Yes, it's very important that we all eat a healthy lunch.
Patient: Um. The problem is that my soup keeps getting poisoned.
Doctor: It is certainly a problem that some people do not get a chance to eat healthy food.
Patient: Specifically, me. Someone keeps poisoning me.
Doctor: Is there some reason why you don't think that people should pay attention to their diet? This isn't just about you, you know!

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
quote:
So when people say that the phrase is hurting them, you say they're wrong? You know better than they do whether or not something hurts to them?
Are you demanding a yes/no answer instead of what I have been saying over the last… 4 pages? If so I choose yes. They are hurting themselves and it pains me to watch them do it.

Seriously? You believe you are so familiar with racism and the way it works and effects people that you know better than people who suffer from it on a day to day basis what hurts them and what they need to improve their situation?

This is the core of the complaint- that people who don't want to make the effort to even listen to them, never mind respect their statements about what's hurting them, are stepping in and trying to assert that they know better not only what the solution is, but what the people actually should and should not be feeling. That what their lives and feelings don't matter as much as the uninformed opinions of their would-be saviors.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Except Tom, the conversation is going like this.
Dr.: Nobody should have to tolerate being poisoned!
Patient: Specifically, me. I should not be poisoned.
Dr.: That's awful, nobody should be poisoned.
Patient: Why are you making this about everyone? I am being poisoned.
Dr.: I know. I certainly wouldn't want to be poisoned. It can't be nice.
Patient: Damn it, I need treatment for poisoning and to stop the bastard poisoning me!
Dr.: Oh... take these, 3 times a day and I'll contact the police for you if you like. They are looking for someone who is slipping chemical X into your food at a dose of about 3 tablespoons every other day or so. Why didn't you just say that in the first place?

"The public" is dense as hell. Don't be subtle when addressing it.

[ December 11, 2014, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Seriously? You believe you are so familiar with racism and the way it works and effects people that you know better than people who suffer from it on a day to day basis what hurts them and what they need to improve their situation?
No. I seriously believe that my entire thought process on this matter is totally alien to you and through either a fault in your reading or my writing, communication on this matter is next to impossible. I was giving you what I thought you wanted to hear. What I “believe” has been expanded upon over and over. You didn’t like that though. Was I wrong again?
Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
Being a patient, i.e. the one with the pain, does not make a person a doctor. When the patient starts correcting people volunteering to give medical aid and tells them what procedures need to be used, their position of suffering might just as soon come from a place of ignorance as one of insight. Telling people that they cannot know what is right because they are not the ones asking for help is completely divisive and also wrong.

And if you were a doctor, instead of just having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and thinking that makes you qualified to pontificate, you'd be onto something. But instead you don't even pat attention to the patient saying "This is what hurts" trying o define that for them as well as ignoring people that have at least spent time studying with actual doctors so that they can try to help handle emergency situations in the field. In fact you actively disparage them for suggesting that you need to listen to the patient telling you that their leg hurts and can't move it while you go on claiming that since you saw how Hawkeye gave a guy an emergency tracheotomy with a pen on MASH you know how to handle the situation.
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Let's run with the medical analogy for a second.
The doctor represents the public. The patient is the black population.

Patient: Doctor, someone keeps pouring poison in my soup!
Doctor: Yes, it's very important that we all eat a healthy lunch.
Patient: Um. The problem is that my soup keeps getting poisoned.
Doctor: It is certainly a problem that some people do not get a chance to eat healthy food.
Patient: Specifically, me. Someone keeps poisoning me.
Doctor: Is there some reason why you don't think that people should pay attention to their diet? This isn't just about you, you know!

Right. Except that this presupposes that the patient a) has accurately and completely identified the cause of the problem, and b) is aware of how to correct the problem and will tell it to the doctor, and c) that there is only one correct answer to the problem. But let me present you with the medical dialogue that I think actually fits our narrative:

Patient: Help doc, someone is poisoning my soup!
Doctor: How can you be sure it's poison?
Patient: I can tell; my stomach burns. I'd know if it was something else
Doctor: Well I'll have to test for contaminants, and I'll also take a blood test...
Patient: Stop! I told you it's poison, don't distract from the real problem by talking about anything other than antidote for the poison.
Doctor: I understand you feel badly, but let me do my job. I need to consider all options.
Patient: I don't just feel badly, I'm the one with the symptoms and so I know better than you what's going on with me.
Doctor: You may know how the symptom feels better than I do, but I need to find the cause and deal with that. That's why I'm the doctor and not the patient.
Patient: Why are you making this about you?
Doctor: Speaking of which, there is a report that all the water in the city was tainted yesterday and that it's affecting many people to varying degrees; if this is the issue then it's city-wide and not just targeting you.
Patient: Don't undercut my pain by reducing its importance.
Doctor: No one said your pain wasn't important.
Patient: Then find out who's poisoning my soup!

I may have slanted things slightly against the patient in my dialogue, but this is honestly how it comes across to some people when they read that a college president was condemned as a person for saying "all lives matter."

[ December 11, 2014, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Except Tom, the conversation is going like this.

No, it's not. It would be convenient if it were, but that is not ever remotely faithful to the actual order of events.

No one was using #allLivesMatter until after #BlackLivesMatter caught on. And it was used specifically with the intent of invalidating and displacing #BlackLivesMatter- explicitly to suggest that it was prejudiced to focus on a serious problem racial disparity.

As has been said many time over, the content of the phrase isn't the issue. The problem is that, if you actually follow the sequence of events instead of pretending that there's no direct relationship, it is very clear that it was a repeat of a very common tactic to minimalism and marginalize people that want to call attention to the damage caused by racial inequity.

There is no maybe about it, no speculation here- it was very directly launched to shift the focus away from minority issues and ensure that the majority remained the center of attention.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
See this is where I disagree with Fenring. I’m not suggesting the Dr. knows better. I’m suggesting that in stopping to argue that you need treatment FIRST you are pissing off the rest of the patients. Now objectively I agree that you need treatment first. I still don’t think it’s a good thing to tell the rest of the waiting room that they need to sit quietly while you move to the front of the line.

The doctor and nursing staff may be racists and you MAY need to be loud and make it obvious to everyone in that waiting room that you are hurt worse than everyone else and really SHOULD be seen first. If that’s the case, fine. Screw their feelings and whether or not they help you get the racist doc and staff fired or reprimanded later. Your life may be at stake. If THAT is the point people are trying to make. I can understand.

Is it?

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Except that this presupposes that the patient a) has accurately and completely identified the cause of the problem,

No, just that the patient can accurately communicate what hurts and how much.

The rest of your attempt to spin the situation falls apart because you don't seem to be able to respect an expression of pain as earnest and instead want to start not only invalidating that expression, but trying to diagnose and prescribe a solution based on your assertions from a position of complete ignorance.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pyrtolin. I am 100% ignorant on all things hash tag. I see them around. I am fairly sure they relate to twitter. My understanding is they are a way to link posts into categories similar to how a web search engine works. Is that the case?

Maybe I’m being dismissive because I don’t understand the hash tag system. Did the president of the school do something unforgiveable by using a hashtag without first researching where that tag leads?

I was equating this to two people in a crowd holding up two different signs. Is that a flase equivilency that makes me "miss the point"?

[ December 11, 2014, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I’m suggesting that in stopping to argue that you need treatment FIRST you are pissing off the rest of the patients.
Again, not something that's being done. This is another miscast of what's being expressed.

The patient is lying there groaning about how their leg hurts over and over again. And being alternate told "Stop complaining, can't you see that everyone here has problems" and having to fend off faux doctors that keep saying "Your leg doesn't really hurt, your arm hurts and needs to be amputated. Since I saw someone on TV do it, I'll help you instead of a doctor"

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Either the metaphore has been streched too thin or I'm missing some huge pieces of the reality. Translate the "Your leg doesn't really hurt, your arm hurts and needs to be amputated" part back to a real world occurance.

I would like to say "that's not being done" back at you, but as I'm not sure of your point, I'll refrain.

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Pyrtolin. I am 100% ignorant on all things hash tag. I see them around. I am fairly sure they relate to twitter. My understanding is they are a way to link posts into categories similar to how a web search engine works. Is that the case?


They a way of effectively assigning a topic to a post. You ahve it essentially right.

quote:
Maybe I’m being dismissive because I don’t understand the hash tag system. Did the president of the school do something unforgiveable by using a hashtag without first researching where that tag leads?

She didn't do anything unforgivable- in fact she was very directly forgiven when she honestly apologized for her mistake.

She did accidentally use the contents of one of the tags in a context that related very closely to the topic of the tags.

quote:
I was equating this to two people in a crowd holding up two different signs. Is that a flase equivilency that makes me "miss the point"?
It's the equivalent of one person holding up a sign then someone else stepping in front of them with a different sign and constantly moving it to cover up the original sign.
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Either the metaphore has been streched too thin or I'm missing some huge pieces of the reality. Translate the "Your leg doesn't really hurt, your arm hurts and needs to be amputated" part back to a real world occurance.

"This phase didn't hurt you when it was used, so you shouldn't be complaining about the pain you say it caused you"
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
he didn't do anything unforgivable- in fact she was very directly forgiven when she honestly apologized for her mistake.
This reply does me no good. I don't UNDERSTAND the mistake. That someone forgave her for something I find to not be a mistake, translates as "caving to a mob".

quote:
It's the equivalent of one person holding up a sign then someone else stepping in front of them with a different sign and constantly moving it to cover up the original sign.
Explain WHY it's in front instead of beside? It's the god damn internet... You can't stand in front of them. At best you can bring more signs.
Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
This reply does me no good. I don't UNDERSTAND the mistake. That someone forgave her for something I find to not be a mistake, translates as "caving to a mob".

How is unintentionally hurting people "not a mistake"?
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Someone is trying to hurt you, by getting you to focus on this phrase, which spells out your long term goal, and viewing it as the source of your pain, they have succeeded in hurting you. Now you must be suspicious around every person who shares your goal. They could be an enemy in disguise. This person who wants to hurt you has turned solidarity into paranoia.

Please, don't let them do this to you.

[ December 11, 2014, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Explain WHY it's in front instead of beside? It's the god damn internet... You can't stand in front of them. At best you can bring more signs.
Trying to drown someone out through volume of posts, silencing tactics, etc... is the internet equivalent of standing in front of them.
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Someone is trying to hurt you, by getting you to focus on this phrase, which spells out your long term goal, and viewing it as the source of your pain, they have succeeded in hurting you.
They hsve squeezed out your message, and in fact actively tried to create the false impression that you are acting from a place of racial bias when you ask for a racial inequity to be addressed. They are drowning you out, not only drawing people's attention away from your problem, but actively working on convincing them that your problem doesn't really exist and you're just looking for special treatment.

What's worse, when you speak up and express pain about being so marginalized they've convinced everyone else that you're actually speaking out against the eventual goal instead of trying to just point out the problem that you're living with. That your problem is all your fault and really just in your head, and not the fault of the people that actively and intentionally moved to silence you.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We can do little to stop people from attempting manipulation.

We can point out the attempt in hopes that when recognized, it can be avoided.

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
See this is where I disagree with Fenring. I’m not suggesting the Dr. knows better. I’m suggesting that in stopping to argue that you need treatment FIRST you are pissing off the rest of the patients. Now objectively I agree that you need treatment first. I still don’t think it’s a good thing to tell the rest of the waiting room that they need to sit quietly while you move to the front of the line.

The doctor and nursing staff may be racists and you MAY need to be loud and make it obvious to everyone in that waiting room that you are hurt worse than everyone else and really SHOULD be seen first. If that’s the case, fine. Screw their feelings and whether or not they help you get the racist doc and staff fired or reprimanded later. Your life may be at stake. If THAT is the point people are trying to make. I can understand.

Is it?

Actually I didn't insinuate that the doctor knows better; in my example the doctor just says he needs to investigate, which means that while he isn't outright agreeing with whatever the patient is saying at the same time he doesn't claim to know yet what the real issue is. But the patient doesn't want a dialogue about what the problem is or for the doctor to use his own judgement; he wants the doctor to just do what he says. By the way a lot of real patients in hospitals do just this.

In terms of the real world, if black people could solve the problem all on their own they wouldn't need anyone else to deal with the issue. But they need something to be done at least in part of others who have the power to help. If these others aren't so quick to agree to whatever's said first but want to think it over for themselves, or even to present an alternate view of the issue, then that's exactly what should happen when you try to work with others; you need to accept that they have minds of their own and that you need to come to an agreement with them. But framing an issue in just one way and expecting consensus isn't the way to approach others who are different than you. And this is to say nothing of actually chastising them when they don't fall in line.

Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Someone is trying to hurt you, by getting you to focus on this phrase, which spells out your long term goal, and viewing it as the source of your pain, they have succeeded in hurting you.
They hsve squeezed out your message, and in fact actively tried to create the false impression that you are acting from a place of racial bias when you ask for a racial inequity to be addressed. They are drowning you out, not only drawing people's attention away from your problem, but actively working on convincing them that your problem doesn't really exist and you're just looking for special treatment.

What's worse, when you speak up and express pain about being so marginalized they've convinced everyone else that you're actually speaking out against the eventual goal instead of trying to just point out the problem that you're living with. That your problem is all your fault and really just in your head, and not the fault of the people that actively and intentionally moved to silence you.

Yes, they have. They couldn't have done it without you.
Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSRT
Member
Member # 6454

 - posted      Profile for PSRT   Email PSRT   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Dr.: Nobody should have to tolerate being poisoned!
Patient: Specifically, me. I should not be poisoned.

Well, no. "Black Lives Matter" is about a GAP in how people are being treated. A difference in treatment.

The following is not directed at you specifically, D.W. its a general statement.

I don't know of any political and economic underclass in a society that has ever been lifted up to equal status by focusing on the entire society, rather than the underclass. To the extent that we've fought poverty, its been by acknowledging poverty and implementing measures to address it. We've been closing the gap in how gays are treated by society by focusing on gays. Women got political power by focusing on women. The civil rights movement in the 60's put the focus on how blacks were treated then. But the civil rights movement hasn't closed the gap far enough that we can rest, and the only way to keep closing that gap is to focus on it, to acknowledge the gap and implement measures that are targeted at focusing on closing that gap. We've never been able to close gaps in any other way, and to assume that we don't have to with structural racism is simply wrong.

Posts: 2152 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with you PSRT. My earlier comments about elevating everyone who is the victim of a broad range of inequalities, I feel is a good idea, not only because it will help a lot of people but because the discussion of racism in this country is entangled with these other inequalities.

They may be a result of racism but a divide and conquer approach can I feel improve things for the victims of racism.

Pure racism is not nearly as prevalent today as systemic inequality which disproportionately effects blacks. It's easy to say they are the same thing, but I think (and I could be totally bat**** crazy) that separating them will solve all the problems faster.

[ December 11, 2014, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 6161

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
quote:
he didn't do anything unforgivable- in fact she was very directly forgiven when she honestly apologized for her mistake.
This reply does me no good. I don't UNDERSTAND the mistake. That someone forgave her for something I find to not be a mistake, translates as "caving to a mob".
She understood her mistake and apologized. How is that caving?
quote:


quote:
It's the equivalent of one person holding up a sign then someone else stepping in front of them with a different sign and constantly moving it to cover up the original sign.
Explain WHY it's in front instead of beside? It's the god damn internet... You can't stand in front of them. At best you can bring more signs.
And we white people have a lot more signs and a lot more resources. Look. It isn't that "all lives matter" is untrue. It is the case that in this context "all lives matter" was diluting the message that "black lives matter" and that black lives, in particular, were being disregarded. And no one is forbidding, or preventing, or not allowing people to say whatever. What is being said is that diluting the message is not helping so, if you are trying to help, stop doing that.
Posts: 2635 | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As a black man I can say that those of us who care about equality don't want white pity and we are pretty disgusted by white guilt. We wanted to be treated equally, that means no special treatment. You cannot fix old, past institutionalized racist structures from generations past by harming anyone alive now to "make up for it" because all that does is just create new racism, which is what is happening now.
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rafi
Member
Member # 6930

 - posted      Profile for Rafi   Email Rafi       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
As a black man I can say that those of us who care about equality don't want white pity and we are pretty disgusted by white guilt. We wanted to be treated equally, that means no special treatment. You cannot fix old, past institutionalized racist structures from generations past by harming anyone alive now to "make up for it" because all that does is just create new racism, which is what is happening now.

But it's only when everything is racism that nothing can be racism. When every facet of our lives is ruled by race, only then will we truly be color blind.
Posts: 793 | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
As a black man I can say that those of us who care about equality don't want white pity and we are pretty disgusted by white guilt.
Are you saying that all black men who care about equality share your views?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonaldD
Member
Member # 1052

 - posted      Profile for DonaldD   Email DonaldD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Seneca, do you actually believe you are responding to anybody posting on this thread?
Posts: 10751 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's cute how people said I am the one helping to stifle messages. [Smile]
Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Seneca, do you actually believe you are responding to anybody posting on this thread?

Yes. It was responding to Pyrtolins comment above about institutionalized racist structures in society.
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonaldD
Member
Member # 1052

 - posted      Profile for DonaldD   Email DonaldD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Which post would that be, Seneca?
Posts: 10751 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
The phrasing is not an accident. The real racists, the race hustlers like Sharpton, Holder, Jackson, etc, want Americans more divided than unified on race. They WANT racism to continue or else they lose relevance and they lose power and influence. They WANT to Balkanize America.

Because people that won't let other ignore a problem are totally to blame for the problem. IF they'd just let everyone pretend there wasn't a problem, we'd all be happy and no one would have to actually do anything about the elephant in the room.

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
So if racism is supposedly built into our society and division of wealth and resources, how do we correct that without imposing racist measures, such as a racist tax regime?
Fixing a problem created by racism isn't racist. I can understand why people against fixing the problem would want to say that, but I can't really understand why someone actually trying to operate a just society would want to say that.

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Seneca, do you actually believe you are responding to anybody posting on this thread?

Do really think that because Seneca doesn't explain his views within the confines of the narrative and language used by Pyrtolin and others that means he's off topic? Maybe he is on topic and you've failed to connect what he's saying to what you're saying. His meaning was pretty clear to me.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Josh,

"Poking" is fine... it is a natural feature of honest exchange.

Demanding nonreciprocal inquiry is not. Agree to change that particularly off-putting feature of your communication style, and I will even play along with the pretense that you are not being patronizingly critical of another's character at the most primal level. Heck, I let Tom get away with it all the time.

Deal?

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do you believe that your support of torture is in fact a part of your character at the most primal level, noel?

(And, hey, in case you forgot this was asked: which noun didn't agree with which verb in my earlier post?)

[ December 12, 2014, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 55 pages: 1  2  3  ...  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  ...  53  54  55   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1