Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Guess who's coming to dinner (in Iraq)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Guess who's coming to dinner (in Iraq)
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
French leading the EU into helping in Iraq

Remember "freedom fries"? Remember 11 years ago when the right wing brainwashers were calling the French "cowards" for refusing to join our stupid crusade in Iraq?

Now that the situation is 10x as dangerous as it was years ago, guess who's leading the pack to get international involvement to stop Isis?

quote:
France and the US have already begun to supply weapons to the Kurds, whose Peshmerga fighters are trying to halt an advance by Islamic State militants.
France was first? But there's more!

quote:
EU foreign ministers are holding an emergency meeting in Brussels on Friday to discuss plans to arm Iraq's Kurds against an extremist insurgency....
The EU? No kidding? Who called an EU meeting on this?

quote:
The emergency EU meeting was called for by France, whose foreign minister Laurent Fabius criticised the EU for inaction on Iraq.

Vive La France.

Folks, don't believe what the stupid US press tells you about how people think in France. You read anything about France, go check it again from a non-US source.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I reserve the right, as an American, to call the French "cheese eating surrender monkeys" upon demand.

They, as French, can reserve the right to call Americans "fat, obnoxious, uneducated bores".

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The French that don't like Americans call us bloodthirsty cowboys, actually.

But there are plenty of French that do like us.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
The French that don't like Americans call us bloodthirsty cowboys, actually.

I only drink the blood of the damned.
Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Adam Masterman
Member
Member # 1142

 - posted      Profile for Adam Masterman   Email Adam Masterman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I remember getting mildly ostracized back in 2002-3 by insisting on calling them "Lafayette Fries". America got really stupid after 9-11 in many ways.
Posts: 4823 | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I pissed some twerps off during thr freedom fries.days when i suggested they send.back.that French statue from New York Harbor. Sounds like we were thinking along the same lines, Adam.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not surprised that France is getting involved in Iraq. They've struck me as rather desparate to be internationally relevant.
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's an oversimplification to believe that our relationship with the French has everything to do with us changing, and nothing at all to do with them changing.

Our relationship with the French is a very complicated one that started going downhill with
DeGaulle. It's not just about Iraq in 2002-3. Alot has changed in the last few years, and not just on the side of the US.

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
DeGeulle is dead. There are some silly offenses on the French side, but that doesn't change the fact that American media brainwashes us about France, and that their perception of us isn't what we're told.

Guess who else is joining the party? While the UK is still mulling whether to join in, and Germany says it will do something but not weapons due to legal issues dating back to WWII, the CZECH REPUBLIC is the third country that's joined the war effort, preparing a shipment of munitions to the Kurds to be delivered by the end of the month.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28808992


quote:
Chink of hope

A group of leaders from restive Sunni provinces issued a joint statement addressed to new Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi, who took over from Nouri Maliki on Thursday.
Jump media player
Media player help
Out of media player. Press enter to return or tab to continue.

They said they could join the new government if the security and civil administrations in their areas were given equal status to that of the central government.

But they demanded that the Iraqi authorities stop the bombardment of Sunni provinces and cities, and said that local people should be allowed to run Sunni provinces.

Calling for a reform of the Iraqi army, they asked for the release of political detainees, an end to executions and the withdrawal of militias from Sunni cities.


Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seagull
Member
Member # 694

 - posted      Profile for seagull   Email seagull   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What makes you think the French and EU will actually DO anything except talk?

Other than selling weapons to keep their production lines going (maybe even subsidizing them a bit for PR reasons) do you really think the French will put boots on the ground? Even in the unlikely case that they do, there is no reason to believe that their performance in protecting civilians will be better than their performance in Bosnia.

French troops in Iraq will only provide ISIL with more hostages. Not a good idea,

Posts: 1910 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
What makes you think the French and EU will actually DO anything except talk?

They've already given munitions to the Kurds, and seem to have done so before the Americans did. And lack of munitions was the reason that the Kurds lost those cities to ISIS.

It's more than Israel's done in any event.

quote:
do you really think the French will put boots on the ground?
They might (ever hear of the foreign legion?) But I hope they don't, since the best way to win this war is NOT to put a colonialist face on this.

Best America and the EU can do, like I said, is arm the Kurds to the teeth, and attack ISIS' donors and suppliers. Most importantly pressure or threaten Qatar banks to stop servicing ISIS. If we have to, freaking blocade Qatar, put it under sanctions. Cutting ISIS off financially is critical.

No fly zones, drone strikes, surveillance, maybe, but all that is less important than arming the Kurds and attacking ISIS financially.

[ August 15, 2014, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seagull
Member
Member # 694

 - posted      Profile for seagull   Email seagull   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
the French government recently announced a raise in its terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide". The normal level is "General Arrogance", and the only two higher levels in France are "Surrender" and "Collaborate"
Posts: 1910 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seagull
Member
Member # 694

 - posted      Profile for seagull   Email seagull   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's more than Israel's done in any even
Israel has supported the Kurds in Iraq since the 1970s (we need to keep our factories going too after all). It is not always publicized because admitting that you accept aid from Israel may not be good for your health in that area of the world.
Posts: 1910 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seagull:

French troops in Iraq will only provide ISIL with more hostages. Not a good idea,

LOL
Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
quote:
It's more than Israel's done in any even
Israel has supported the Kurds in Iraq since the 1970s (we need to keep our factories going too after all). It is not always publicized because admitting that you accept aid from Israel may not be good for your health in that area of the world.
Fair enough. I only brought up your recent inaction because you were being boorishly ingracious about France being first to help the Kurds push back ISIS.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have to find it slightly ironic that the French are willing to help the Kurds now, today, in a situation that is the direct result of a series of American actions beginning in the invasion of 2003 that they wanted nothing to do with.
Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It ain't the first time they've turned the tide in a war we were losing, Grant. [Smile]
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
It ain't the first time they've turned the tide in a war we were losing, Grant. [Smile]

Awwww, cumon! We're losing? Now? Don't tell anybody that. You're going to get "the only way to win is not to play" in that Joshua voice.
Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seagull
Member
Member # 694

 - posted      Profile for seagull   Email seagull   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
you were being boorishly ingracious about France being first to help the Kurds push back ISIS
If you are taking about selling weapons to the Kurds, France is not the first. If you are talking about boots on the ground, they haven't done anything yet. I hope they don't because the last thing the Kurds need right now is French hostages in the hands of ISIL.

At this point the French foreign minister is just talking, let's hope it stays that way.

We saw how much the French helped in Srebrenica, in Lybia and in Suez (1956). Even when an Air France plane was hijacked to Uganda in 1976 they did nothing to protect civilians. With those kinds of friends, who needs enemies.

[ August 16, 2014, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

Posts: 1910 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why would i be talking boots on the ground wheni specifically said.no boots on the ground? France did.what was needed, which was MUNITIONS, days.ago, to the kurds. Tens of thousands of people saved when you say nothing has happened. Some ally you are. (Seagull, not.Israel)
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seagull
Member
Member # 694

 - posted      Profile for seagull   Email seagull   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Tens of thousands of people saved
Tens of thousands of people survived by escaping (no thanks to the US or French). Hundreds of thousands are homeless and on the run.

The U.S. decides against rescue of Yazidis with 'far fewer' stranded than thought only to find out a few days later that militants massacred at least 80 men from the Yazidi faith in a village and abducted women and children.

I must say that I had a "bed feeling" about the first report even before the second link was reported. When I read 'far fewer stranded' I immediately thought about the dead, enslaved and/or kidnapped numbers that made up the difference.

Giving them false hope is a crime in itself. The US and EU have done that to the Kurds so many times that nobody should believe their words anymore. I'll be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

"When you have to shoot...Shoot! Don't talk"

[ August 16, 2014, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

Posts: 1910 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
quote:
Tens of thousands of people saved
Tens of thousands of people survived by escaping (no thanks to the US or French). Hundreds of thousands are homeless and on the run.

The U.S. decides against rescue of Yazidis with 'far fewer' stranded than thought only to find out a few days later that militants massacred at least 80 men from the Yazidi faith in a village and abducted women and children.

That's grotesquely misleading, Seagull. The US decided against rescue of Yazidis ON THE MOUNTAIN, and so far there are no reported deaths there, with our airlifted supplies.

It's a shame we overlooked the village as the article I linked to shows that ISIS had been holding them for five days before murdering the men and then kidnapping all the women and boys they wanted to use sexually.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree that what we're doing for the Kurds is too little too late. We need to be giving them the sort of heavy weaponry we gave to the cowardly Southern Iraqis that abandoned those weapons to ISIS.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seagull
Member
Member # 694

 - posted      Profile for seagull   Email seagull   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
That's grotesquely misleading, Seagull. The US decided against rescue of Yazidis ON THE MOUNTAIN, and so far there are no reported deaths there, with our airlifted supplies.
I agree that the situation is grotesque but I do not understand why you think it is misleading.

What is misleading about wondering why there were "far fewer stranded" on the mountain? Why were they overlooked when it was obvious even before the massacre happened?

Were is the UN commission to investigate the war crimes?

Where is the call to see ISIS leaders brought to justice in international courts?

Oh, I forgot, they are too busy condemning Israel for stopping Hamas from following ISIS' lead and doing the same thing in Israel.

Posts: 1910 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's misleading to talk about the Ys on the mountain in a way that confuses them with the ones in the massacred village. If the United States had launched a mountain rescue, That would have made no difference to the villagers

Why would the un investigate when no one is even disputing what ISIS did? How would the United Nations investigate an active battlefield? That would be like trying to conduct an arson investigation in the middle of a building that still on fire.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seagull
Member
Member # 694

 - posted      Profile for seagull   Email seagull   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why would the UN investigate when no one is even disputing what HAMAS did?

How would the United Nations investigate an active battlefield?

Choosing a kangaroo court made up of members who have stated that they already know the results of the investigation before it started practically assures that they will get no cooperation from Israel. How is that different from "investigating" an active battlefield?

quote:
That would be like trying to conduct an arson investigation in the middle of a building that still on fire.
The "fires" in Israel and Gaza are still "burning". But the UN is still too busy condemning Israel for stopping Hamas from following ISIS' lead and doing the same thing in Israel.

Look at what they spend their time on ...

* No calls for investigation (how else would you bring the people responsible to justice)?

* NO calls to see ISIS leaders brought to justice in international courts.

But the head of the committee to investigate war crimes in Gaza has already announced that the person he would most like to see in front of an international court is Benjamin Netanyahu. And to top it all he said that referring to the 2008 operation in Gaza when Ehud Olmert was prime-minister and Netanyahu was in the opposition party.

Next thing you know, he'll be suing Netanyahu's brother for killing Palestinian freedom fighters in Uganda. That is obviously more important than dealing with ISIS and will give the UN the credibility it needs in human rights bastions like Iran, North Korea and Syria. After all without their votes the human rights commission would get nowhere.

Posts: 1910 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One reason Israel is criticized before authoritarian governments is that Israel would actually prosecute war criminals. No point in asking ISIS to follow any sort of rule of law or to bring perpatrators of atrocities to justice. Even if they're beaten, I'd bet that the responsible individuals will be too dead to stand trial.
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1