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Author Topic: This is Hamas
Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
[QUOTE]
And I never "praised" Qassam rockets.

quote:
Hamas and other groups chose to fire missiles -- which can be made quickly and cheaply, in great numbers, and which are fast
They are cheap because they seem to be propelled by bat****.
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KidTokyo
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quote:
That's not what I was arguing, but it is true. Do you dispute that it's true?
You fail to realize that you've completely undermined yourself. On two levels.

If true, Israel's self-defense justification is completely fraudulent, and they are immensely gullible and stupid as well. Why hand Hamas a PR victory?

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Pete at Home
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Asked and answered, counselor. Israel has an obligation to defend itself against an imminent threat against the life of its soldiers and citizens. It has to take out those launch sites. Protecting the lives of its own people is more important to Israel than preventing hamas pr victory
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velcro
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Kid said

quote:
They blow up buildings full of people despite decades of evidence this only perpetuates the cycle of violence.
There is nowhere in Gaza to fire from that does not involve civilian proximity.
...
"I am arguing that it is absurd to make Hamas solely or primarily responsible for this situation, while reflexively defending everything Israel does without even questioning their motives."
...
In fact, if its true, all Israel has to do is *not respond* and the attacks will stop fairly quickly, and permanently, because Hamas/PIJ will be deprived of its sole reason for perpetrating the attacks.

Yes, and the US sank ships in the ocean full of people. They were called warships, and they contained offensive weapons in them. Kid, please try to argue in good faith. The "buildings full of people" were launching sites for rockets. Israel warned the people to leave. Forgetting those two little facts makes your comment look an awful lot like an intentionally misleading statement. You know it is misleading. Please stop.

We are largely in agreement on the next point. It is absurd to make Hamas solely responsible for this situation, while reflexively defending everything Israel does without even questioning their motives. That is why I don't do that. Israel is not perfect. There are certainly elements of Israeli society that have proclivities towards ethnic cleansing. But they are not the Government. They are posters from Milwaukee and washed up celebrities. (Joan Rivers is still alive?) They are not broadcasting unadulterated genocidal hate to children via government TV stations.

Somewhere in here you say settlements are justification for rockets fired from Gaza. Please remind me, how many settlements are in Gaza? How many Palestinians died when that last apartment was built within a pre-existing town adjacent to Jerusalem? The apartment that looks just like the one in Gaza that was - gasp - handed over to Palestinians! So that irreversible, baby-killing Gazan settlement is justification. Got it.

And just a little geography lesson.[won't link to wiki Gaza War (2008-2009 article] My eyeball estimate is that 80% of Gaza is not built up. Exposed? Maybe. But take 1% of the concrete used for tunnels and build a few bunkers. Except firing from a school is so much easier.

As far as Israel stopping reprisals to stop the rockets? Again with the misrepresentation. No sane person has said that eliciting reprisals from Israel is the sole reason for firing rockets. Actually killing Jews so that they can brag about victory is another reason. Really, there are reasonable arguments to be made, but you are going for the unsupportable extremes.

Oh, not to mention the several cease fires where Israel did not fire, but Hamas eventually did.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
Israel has an obligation to defend itself against an imminent threat against the life of its soldiers and citizens. It has to take out those launch sites. Protecting the lives of its own people is more important to Israel than preventing hamas pr victory
But if the primary motive for the missile attacks on Israel is Hamas PR, Israel is endangering its own citizens by responding.

Likewise, if they are actually saving Israeli lives, then the Hamas attacks would happen even if Israel doesn't respond, meaning the motive for the missile attack can't primarily be PR.

Face it, Pete, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Besides, surely the Gazans have an equal right to self defense. I've already posted strong evidence that Hamas missile attacks are not what provoke the Israeli raids.

Interesting how no one entertains the possibility that Israel wants suicide bombers and missile attacks for PR to justify their expansionist aims -- that is a forbidden topic, no?

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seagull
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18 more Palestinians killed in Gaza (by Hamas).
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KidTokyo
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And Israel kills suspected Hamas militants with long-range missile strikes.

Your point?

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Pete at Home
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" But if the primary motive for the missile attacks on Israel is Hamas PR, Israel is endangering its own citizens by responding."

No. Israel would be endangering citizens by not responsing.

Your argument assumes that Hamas poses the greatest threat to Israel. So long as this girl takes out the launch sites, There aren't that many Israeli casualties. If Hamas shifts tactics, Or if Islamic Jihad or some other group takes over, Then Israel could expect more casualties than under the status quo.

If you think I contradicted my own argument, that's because you weren't paying attention to my argument. What I have said is that this ham ass game can go on perpetually.

[ August 22, 2014, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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" Interesting how no one entertains the possibility that Israel wants suicide bombers and missile attacks for PR to justify their expansionist aims --that is a forbidden topic, no?"

There are some people in Israel that want that. I think netanyahu used to want that. Dont know if he still.does.

I think you have an absurd view of Israeli unity. Its like the lefties who talk about one unified monolithic white race. White culture. All that crap. As far as I can tell, the only thing that Israel wants collectively and unitedly is to.survive as a.Jewish homeland.

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NobleHunter
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KT, if Israel needs to take out the launchers in order to keep degrading Hamas' ability to launch long-range attacks. Unmolested, they could risk more expensive equipment or improve their targeting or launch enough rockets to saturate the Iron Dome system. Then the IDF would have to fire on the launchers anyway because they'd be killing people. From their perspective, it's better to take out the launchers sooner rather than later.
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KidTokyo
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quote:
Your argument assumes that Hamas poses the greatest threat to Israel. So long as this girl takes out the launch sites, There aren't that many Israeli casualties. If Hamas shifts tactics, Or if Islamic Jihad or some other group takes over, Then Israel could expect more casualties than under the status quo.
Well, as I've already pointed out on the other thread, Hamas did shift tactics by becoming more moderate, and Islamic Jihad did take over.

And I also provided a link on the other thread with data showing that rocket attacks from Gaza actually follow a very stable rate over periods of months and years, that cease-fires are respected, and that Israeli attacks like the current one are provoked by events other than missile strikes (most recently, it was kidnapping). All of this completely defeats your reasoning.

quote:
think you have an absurd view of Israeli unity. Its like the lefties who talk about one unified monolithic white race. White culture. All that crap. As far as I can tell, the only thing that Israel wants collectively and unitedly is to.survive as a.Jewish homeland.
And yet wasn't I the one who began my participation in this thread -- or the other one (it's a blur) -- by pointing out that that Likud and Israel as a whole are separate entities, and that Likud is not Israel, and Hamas is not Palestine?

The quote from me you present here is not an assertion about Israel -- its an assertion about how Israel is regarded by debates from the outside, i.e. pointing out a double standard.

NH,

quote:
KT, if Israel needs to take out the launchers in order to keep degrading Hamas' ability to launch long-range attacks. Unmolested, they could risk more expensive equipment or improve their targeting or launch enough rockets to saturate the Iron Dome system. Then the IDF would have to fire on the launchers anyway because they'd be killing people. From their perspective, it's better to take out the launchers sooner rather than later.
Another option would be to end the blockages, settlements, and recognize a Palestinian right to exist as a state, and utterly condemn the right wing in Israel that wants a "greater Israel." In other words, apply to themselves the same standards they apply to the enemy.
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NobleHunter
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Well, yes. Though it may not be any more effective in ending the rocket attacks than military force has been, either.
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Pete at Home
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" by pointing out that that Likud and Israel as a whole are separate entities, and that Likud is not Israel, and Hamas is not Palestine?"

I don't remember that. I do remember you equating Hamas to Palestine three times, when I said Hamas did x and you responded claiming I'd said that all Palestinians were monsters.

Even Likud is clearly not united. Your claim that dismantling the Gaza settlements was only for a show, is based on your monomaniacal black/white construction. SHARON dismantled the Gaza settlements. The massive increase in the WB settlements occurred under NETANYAHU. Sharon and Netanyahu were both Likud, and I suspect that at some level you are aware of the difference between them, even though you act as if you don't when you make those absurd posturing declarations.

Why do you think a hardliner like Netanyahu got elected? Because the attacks intensified after Israel abandoned the Gaza settlements.

quote:
Another option would be to end the blockages, settlements, and recognize a Palestinian right to exist as a state, and utterly condemn the right wing in Israel that wants a "greater Israel." In other words, apply to themselves the same standards they apply to the enemy.
Israel doesn't expect the enemy to give ground while it's under fire.

Giving up the settlements while in a state of war would reward Hamas and IJ for terrorism and war crimes. They'd claim military victory, and the attacks would be redoubled.

"I've already posted strong evidence that Hamas missile attacks are not what provoke the Israeli raids."

No you haven't. You've shown that some Israeli raids are provoked by other things. But destruction of whole apartment buildings? The attacks that kill oodles of Palestinian civilians? Those raids are attempts to take out Rocket sites.

You've said absolutely nothing to disprove my thesis that the primary reason for the Qassam rocket launches from apartment buildings, is to provoke Israeli defenses in a way that maximizes Palestinian casualties, for photo ops, Western Sympathy, and fundraising from Quatar and the Sods.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Israel has an obligation to defend itself against an imminent threat against the life of its soldiers and citizens. It has to take out those launch sites. Protecting the lives of its own people is more important to Israel than preventing hamas pr victory.
It just occurred to me: how many Hamas missiles and launchers has Israel destroyed with their attacks on the launch sites?

I mean, if Israel is trying to defend itself, it wants to take out the Hama's weapons, right? Just like attacking a battleship--you're aiming more at the weapons than the men on the ship. If the ship is out of ammo, you don't need to sink it right away.

So how many weapons have these attacks actually destroyed? Since that is the primary target of their attacks, I would expect the Israeli military to give a break down after every attack. But I have trouble finding the numbers. Does anyone know what it is? Is the info available? And if not, why not?

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Pete at Home
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It's the launchers they are out to destroy. They have no end of cheap missiles, but it takes time to set up the launcher, and the more missiles they send off, the more destructive they become. Like targeting artillery.

The launch sites are not like ships on the sea. They are buildings in a city. People can easily run up the stairs with more missiles. And will do so, as long as the launcher remains in play.

"So how many weapons have these attacks actually destroyed? Since that is the primary target of their attacks, I would expect the Israeli military to give a break down after every attack. But I have trouble finding the numbers. Does anyone know what it is? Is the info available? And if not, why not?"

The only way Israel could know the number of launchers taken out, would be from their spies within Hamas, and publishing the information would put those spies at risk. Hamas doesn't want to publish the information because it would deflect attention from the Palestinian civilian dead.

Israel isn't like America; they don't burn their spies to get a PR victory.

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Wayward Son
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The only way Israel can see the launchers is through spies? Spy planes or other aircraft can't see them?

I realize that we can't expect the Israeli military to locate the launchers before they are used, but once they have a general location, these launchers can be effectively camouflaged so that Israel can't verify they've been hit? So they have to rely exclusively on spies?

I'm curious--what is your source for that?

[ August 22, 2014, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Wayward Son ]

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KidTokyo
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NH,

quote:
Well, yes. Though it may not be any more effective in ending the rocket attacks than military force has been, either.
It would, however, be far more humane and justifiable.

It is what Israel should be doing, legally and morally, regardless of what any Palestinians are doing. No amount of wrongdoing by militant groups like Hamas and IJ is a justification for Israel's forcible annexations and blockades.

If Israel actually did what it should be doing any way, and the attacks from Gaza continue unabated, my approach to this topic would change considerably.

But I highly doubt the Hamas attacks would continue in that case. IJ probably would, but they would be discredited in such a context, and they too would have to moderate.

Pete,

quote:
SHARON dismantled the Gaza settlements. The massive increase in the WB settlements occurred under NETANYAHU. Sharon and Netanyahu were both Likud, and I suspect that at some level you are aware of the difference between them, even though you act as if you don't when you make those absurd posturing declarations.
Not true.

The growth rate was quite stable throughout Netanyahu, Barak, and Sharon. The Wall, however, occurred during Sharon's regime. link

Meanwhile, in the present day, Israel speeds up building in the west bank -- taking advantage of the distraction provided by warfare.

link

As for attacks after the Gaza pullout in August 2005 -- first they went down for the six months following. Then in January 2006 Hamas won the election, and sanctions were immediately imposed on them. Then the rocket attacks resume.

Look at the left side of the graph.

Link. Once again, the facts show that you are wrong. Look at the whole graph while you are at it. Click to enlarge.

[ August 22, 2014, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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NobleHunter
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But would Hamas, and Palestinians more generally, be adopting a stance of peace with Israel or just biding their time?

They use rockets because they have few other means to attack Israel due to the blockade. If Israel returns full independence to Gaza and the West Bank, what are they odds they'll just build up forces to make effective attacks on Israel?

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KidTokyo
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quote:
They use rockets because they have few other means to attack Israel due to the blockade. If Israel returns full independence to Gaza and the West Bank, what are they odds they'll just build up forces to make effective attacks on Israel?
Most Palestinians on both sides quite specifically do not want that.
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NobleHunter
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I'd find that more reassuring if the Palestinians lived in a functioning democracy.

And, if the Palestinians used a more 'legitimate' form of warfare, they wouldn't be the only ones Israel would have to worry about. I think at least a few regimes in the Middle-East would jump at a chance for a short, victorious war.

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Pete at Home
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Bahaha! You blame Sharon for Settlers making babies? Need a birds and the bees explanation, Kid? The WB increase during Sharon's the same straight line that preceded it. None of the accelerations that occur earlier on the graph. And your chart conveniently leaves off the years after Sharon's incapacity. My bet is that there's a substantial acceleration when Netanyahu takes power, since new settlements get built.
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Pete at Home
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" Then in January 2006 Hamas won the election, and sanctions were immediately imposed on them. "

Well of course, given Hamas' charter and history of undermining the peace process with the Palestinian authority.

I never said that Israel ONLY uses force in response to Hamas rockets. I said that the bulk of Palestinian civilian casualties are the result of anti-rocket strikes, and that this is part of Hamas' plan. Israel's principal goal is survival, while Hamas' principal goal is power over the Palestinian people and money from abroad.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
They use rockets because they have few other means to attack Israel due to the blockade. If Israel returns full independence to Gaza and the West Bank, what are they odds they'll just build up forces to make effective attacks on Israel?
Most Palestinians on both sides quite specifically do not want that.
I don't think they'll build up forces. I think Hamas will declare victory, get more money from Qatar and the sods, and continue doing the same thing with Israel.
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KidTokyo
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NH,

quote:
I 'd find that more reassuring if the Palestinians lived in a functioning democracy.

And, if the Palestinians used a more 'legitimate' form of warfare, they wouldn't be the only ones Israel would have to worry about. I think at least a few regimes in the Middle-East would jump at a chance for a short, victorious war.

They *do* have a functioning democracy. Or at least they did.

As for "legitimate" warfare, virtually all the Israeli casualties are IDF., whereas the majority of Palestinian casualties are civilian.

quote:
The WB increase during Sharon's the same straight line that preceded it. None of the accelerations that occur earlier on the graph. And your chart conveniently leaves off the years after Sharon's incapacity. My bet is that there's a substantial acceleration when Netanyahu takes power, since new settlements get built.
Sharon built the wall, and regimes before and after continue to issue new building permits. In fact, this rather destroys your assertion that I am committing a terrible slander in conflating the differing Likud factions, doesn't it? The construction continues, not just in numbers but infrastructure.

quote:
I said that the bulk of Palestinian civilian casualties are the result of anti-rocket strikes, and that this is part of Hamas' plan.
And you provide no evidence.

quote:
Israel's principal goal is survival, while Hamas' principal goal is power over the Palestinian people and money from abroad.
distinction without a difference, with reference to both Israel and Palestine.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
They *do* have a functioning democracy. Or at least they did.
Hamas took over Gaza in a military coup before its election. That ain't a functioning democracy.

"Sharon built the wall, and regimes before and after continue to issue new building permits."

So you say, but your link doesn't show that; it shows total number of settlers. Unless you're alleging that Sharon personally fathered all those babies, I don't see how he's responsible for the high settler breed rate.

quote:
I said that the bulk of Palestinian civilian casualties are the result of anti-rocket strikes, and that this is part of Hamas' plan.

And you provide no evidence.

You need "evidence" that blowing up an entire apartment complex kills more people than blowing up a car full of thugs?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Israel's principal goal is survival, while Hamas' principal goal is power over the Palestinian people and money from abroad.

distinction without a difference, with reference to both Israel and Palestine.

If you cannot see the difference between a party struggling for power and a people struggling for survival, then I don't know that we share sufficient values to have this discussion. That's a very cynical view.
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NobleHunter
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How many of those IDF casualties were caused by Hamas attacks? Who chooses to conduct 'legitimate' warfare in Gaza?
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seagull
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quote:
I would expect the Israeli military to give a break down after every attack. But I have trouble finding the numbers. Does anyone know what it is? Is the info available? And if not, why not?
Giving a breakdown after every attack would be giving vital information to the enemy. Why would you expect the IDF to do that?

If you have trouble finding numbers you must not have been looking very hard: Operation Protective Edge by the Numbers )published Aug 5 2014)

Expecting to see a breakdown after every attack is unreasonable but if you want the overall trend here is a quote from the link above:
quote:
Before the operation, IDF intelligence assessed that terrorists in Gaza held approximately 10,000 rockets. 1/3 of these rockets were fired at Israel, and an additional 1/3 were destroyed by IDF forces.

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Wayward Son
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I looked a little into the types of rockets Hamas is firing at Israel.

According to this article from Foreign Affairs:

quote:
Their [Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Palestinian Resistance Committees] combined arsenal is comprised of four rocket types: the short-range Qassam rocket with a range of 17.7 km (11 miles); the Grad rocket with a range of 48 km (30 miles); the M-75 with a range of 75 km (46 miles); and the M-302 with a range of 160 km (99 miles). The M-302 is by far the most sophisticated rocket in the arsenal, capable of reaching Haifa, which is 90 miles from Gaza City.
The Qassam rocket appears to be a glorified mortar. The launcher seems to be a modified children's slide. [Roll Eyes]

The closest I could find the the Grad rocket is the Soviet BM-21 Grad, which apparently is lauched from the back of a truck.

The M-75 rocket is apparently another home-made rocket, and looks like something that can also be launched from the back of a truck.

The M-302 appears to be the Syrian 302mm Khaibar rocket, and is also lauched from the back of a truck or a trailer.

So the main rockets that Hamas is deploying appear to be highly mobile, lanchers and rockets easily moved from one location to another. This would make sense, since Hamas does not have the wherewithall to defend a fixed launching site.

What this all means is that Hamas is doubtlessly moving the rockets and launchers into position, firing them, and then quickly moving the launchers and any remaining rockets before Israel has a chance to retaliate. That's at least what I would do under the circumstances.

Which means that Israel is not attacking the launchers or even Hamas. They are retaliating against the neighborhoods where the rockets were launched from.

What good is it to destroy the "launch pad" when the rockets are launched from the back of trucks or trailers, or are launched from a kid's slide? Any flat piece of concrete, a rooftop, a road, or even a level field will do. Blowing up any of these doesn't mean there are hundreds of others left for Hamas to use elsewhere.

As long as Hamas doesn't care if their infrastructure and people are destroyed, Israeli retaliation won't stop them, or even slow them down. Because the Israeli response isn't targetting Hama's rockets or their ability to lauch them.

They are just playing into Hama's hands by attacking civilian areas. [Frown]

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Pete at Home
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Not sure what you mean, NH.

Legitimate?

I think that there are Israeli pols who are fearmongers, and that some of the settlements were created to pander to extremists. I guess I might say that was illegitimate.

OTOH, I think that for Israel to strike missile launch sites is "legitimate," although if they can do so with less collateral damage, they should do so.

I think that it's "illigitimate" for Hamas to launch attacks that can provide no military gain, when their purpose is to dupe the people into thinking a genuine fight continues, and to result in Palestinian civillian deaths for PR and fundraising purposes.

OTOH, I think that some of Palestinian assassinations and strikes have been carried out as legitimate acts of war. I think the assassination of Israel's tourism minister (who called for ethnic cleansing of Palestinians) was at least as legitimate as some of Israel's targeted assassinations.

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KidTokyo
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Pete,

3,500 new west bank homes built in 2005, year of gaza withdrawal.

Zero in 2004.

Sharon was foreign minister under Netty and championed the west bank settlement.

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seagull
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quote:
How many of those IDF casualties were caused by Hamas attacks?
The first reported Israeli casualty was a result of a "friendly fire" incident. There is also a high likelihood that the kidnapped soldier Hadar Goldin was killed by Israeli troops trying to prevent his kidnappers from getting away.

If even Israeli soldiers get killed in "friendly fire" in the fog of war, the fact that only about half of the dead Palestinians are civilians shows that the IDF is trying to avoid civilian casualties.

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Pete at Home
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"What this all means is that Hamas is doubtlessly moving the rockets and launchers into position, firing them, and then quickly moving the launchers and any remaining rockets before Israel has a chance to retaliate. That's at least what I would do under the circumstances."

That's what I'd do under the circumstances as well. And if you can show that Hamas is doing that, rather than continuing to fire from the top of apartment building until fire is returned, then I'll concede the point.

Would you concede that if Hamas is continuing to fire rockets from the top of a crowded apartment building until the building is destroyed, that they are, like I said, maximizing civilian casualties for PR and fundraising purposes?

quote:
What good is it to destroy the "launch pad" when the rockets are launched from the back of trucks or trailers, or are launched from a kid's slide? Any flat piece of concrete, a rooftop, a road, or even a level field will do.
If you have your facts right (which you clearly don't!) about Hamas launching from the backs of trucks then why doesn't Hamas launch all its rockets from roads and open fields? Pull in, shoot, and drive away, resulting in no casualties?

If they have the capacity to shoot from trucks, then the fact that they continue to use rooftops is evidence that I'm right about their motives.

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NobleHunter
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I meant legitimate as in traditional, organized military operations.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
Pete,

3,500 new west bank homes built in 2005, year of gaza withdrawal.

Zero in 2004.

Sharon was foreign minister under Netty and championed the west bank settlement.

Oh, Sharon had a scary history. Sabra and Shatilla, anyone? But when he became PM, something changed. He made good faith gestures towards peace. The Israeli right went nuts about it. And evacuating the Gaza settlements set a precedent for future evacuations. Hell, man, he had to send in the military to get some of the settlers out.
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seagull
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quote:
As long as Hamas doesn't care if their infrastructure and people are destroyed, Israeli retaliation won't stop them, or even slow them down. Because the Israeli response isn't targetting Hama's rockets or their ability to lauch them.
Israel is not interested in retaliation for exactly the reasons that wayward son mentioned. IDF actions are directed at reducing the Hamas MILITARY infrastructure that enables them to fire rockets. The goal is deterrence not retaliation.

Slowing them down is not even a goal, when it comes to the long range rockets of which they have a limited supply, it is actually in Israel's interest that they use them up as fasts possible (as long as it is not too fast for the iron dome to intercept).

Taking out rocket launcher and the militants who operate them will eventually reduce their ability to fire rockets but it is a slow and tedious process that could take weeks or months to complete.

[ August 22, 2014, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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KidTokyo
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quote:
But when he became PM, something changed. He made good faith gestures towards peace. The Israeli right went nuts about it. And evacuating the Gaza settlements set a precedent for future evacuations. Hell, man, he had to send in the military to get some of the settlers out.
Completely contradicted by my last post.

And, gaza elections in Jan 2006 for all of Palestine were free and fair.

Then sanctions were imposed.

*Then* Israel struck Gaza.

*Then* Hamas took over Gaza.

What's really exhausting here is that you and others keep throwing up easily falsifiable assertions and, when shown your error, you just keep adding more and more spin to rationalize the data.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Would you concede that if Hamas is continuing to fire rockets from the top of a crowded apartment building until the building is destroyed, that they are, like I said, maximizing civilian casualties for PR and fundraising purposes?
Actually, I believe that is what Hamas is doing, except that I doubt they are sticking around until the building is destroyed.

Civilians are a dime a dozen, but they got to preserve their fighters. [Frown]

quote:
If you have your facts right (which you clearly don't!) about Hamas launching from the backs of trucks then why doesn't Hamas launch all its rockets from roads and open fields? Pull in, shoot, and drive away, resulting in no casualties?
Launching from a crowded urban areas has two advantages that I can see.

First, it may make Israel hesitate to counterattack, at least until they can pinpoint the point of attack.

Second, once Hamas flees, they can "blend into" the urban environment. Finding the Hama rocket truck is much harder (if not impossible) when it is in the middle of a city, rather than moving across a desolate field.

I realize that Hamas is using civilians as human shields. What I question is the effectiveness of Israel targetting these "launch sites" when the rockets and launchers can be quickly and easily moved--or even abandoned, as for the Qassam launchers.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
If you have your facts right (which you clearly don't)...
Please educate me about where I am wrong. I tried my best to find the facts (and I documented them so you can check). Which ones are wrong?
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seagull
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quote:
What's really exhausting here is that you and others keep throwing up easily falsifiable assertions and, when shown your error, you just keep adding more and more spin to rationalize the data.
Pete, don't you realize that kidTokyo is a troll?

He is not interested in the facts, all he does in that quote is accuse you of what he himself does all the time. The more you respond to him as if he was on the level the more he'll do it. Please stop feeding him.

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