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Author Topic: This is Hamas
Pete at Home
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Thanks for correcting my error as to the order of events. I stand corrected.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
But when he became PM, something changed. He made good faith gestures towards peace. The Israeli right went nuts about it. And evacuating the Gaza settlements set a precedent for future evacuations. Hell, man, he had to send in the military to get some of the settlers out.
Completely contradicted by my last post.
I fail to see where your post contradicted my statement that Israel's right wing went nuts against Sharon's evacuation of Gaza settlements, and that he had to bring in the military to carry some out. Or that it set a precedent for future evacuations, i.e. israel can't say that it's never been done, or take the position that when they settle land that they can never give it up.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
IDF actions are directed at reducing the Hamas MILITARY infrastructure that enables them to fire rockets. The goal is deterrence not retaliation.
I certainly hope that is IDF's direction, but how does attacking the "lauch sites" help when the lauchers are all very mobile? That's what I don't understand.
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seagull
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Wayward son and Pete ...

You both might find the following link enlightening: New Declassified Report Exposes Hamas Human Shield Policy - Aug 20, 2014

Based on several news reports and interviews with IDF soldiers it seems like the guidelines are:

When a militant who just fired a rocket is fleeing from the site in an ambulance "of course we didn't shoot the ambulance". However when an ambulance is being used to deploy a rocket launcher that is a clear and present danger and commander on site (or pilot) has to make a judgement call.

From the fact that some ambulances have been hit, I deduce that there were cases where the judgment call was that "clear and present danger" justified taking it out.

[ August 22, 2014, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
Would you concede that if Hamas is continuing to fire rockets from the top of a crowded apartment building until the building is destroyed, that they are, like I said, maximizing civilian casualties for PR and fundraising purposes?
Actually, I believe that is what Hamas is doing, ...

Civilians are a dime a dozen, but they got to preserve their fighters. [Frown]

That's how I see it.

quote:
except that I doubt they are sticking around until the building is destroyed.
... I realize that Hamas is using civilians as human shields. What I question is the effectiveness of Israel targetting these "launch sites" when the rockets and launchers can be quickly and easily moved--or even abandoned, as for the Qassam launchers.

Those are valid questions. You might be right. Depends on facts not in evidence ... I suspect that israel knows the truth, but they aren't going to give up their spies.

If what you said is true, then the US should use satelite imagery to find out of the launch sites are still active when Israel strikes them, or if they are just wasted lives.

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seagull
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quote:
US should use satelite imagery to find out of the launch sites are still active when Israel strikes them
Nonsense.
Many of the sites are under ground or camouflaged by tents, brush or debree. Israeli reconnaissance aircraft have much better resolution than US satellite imagery and Israeli spotters are much better than most US spotters even in interpreting satellite imagery. If there were any targets for the US satellites to see, Israel would have already taken them out.

But even the IDF spotters are not infallible. They make mistakes and those mistakes cost lives.

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seagull
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An IDF reserve soldier speaking in the US - Ignore the Hebrew just click on the video link
This soldier was an exchange student in the US working together with an Arab student on promoting peace. When the fighting started he volunteered to go back to Israel and join his unit in Gaza.

This soldier is not an exception. What he says represents the views on the majority of the soldiers in the IDF and the values that are taught in Israel both to children and to soldiers.

[ August 22, 2014, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Many of the sites are under ground or camouflaged by tents, brush or debris.
I don't quite understand this. The little that I learned about these rockets is that they and their launchers are highly mobile. While camouglaging them for the duration of their use would be useful, why would they stick around once they are finished?

Fire a few missiles and then run like hell--especially if Israel has announced that it is about to target the site.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
quote:
US should use satelite imagery to find out of the launch sites are still active when Israel strikes them
Nonsense.
Many of the sites are under ground or camouflaged by tents, brush or debree. Israeli reconnaissance aircraft have much better resolution than US satellite imagery and Israeli spotters are much better than most US spotters even in interpreting satellite imagery. If there were any targets for the US satellites to see, Israel would have already taken them out.

But even the IDF spotters are not infallible. They make mistakes and those mistakes cost lives.

I'm talking about the rooftop launchers. My understanding is that taking those out is what's causing most of the casualties.
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seagull
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Take a look at the NTDV reporter who documented how a rocket launcher was set up next to his hotel.

They set up the launcher under a tent and extended wires away so they would not have to be next to it during the launch. Then they covered it with brush and removed the tent. They fired it a day later. They were not at the site during the launch (but the hotel still was). They could not remove the launcher without risking being hit.

If it had not been for the hotel and civilians in it, the launcher would have been a legitimate target.

BTW, the report was published only after the reporter left Gaza and as a result of the publication he is no longer welcome in Gaza.
Anybody surprised?

[ August 22, 2014, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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Pete at Home
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And not suggesting that us sats better than Israeli. I'm saying that if Israel's being accused of inflicting unnecessary collateral damage, that third party eyes might be useful.
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seagull
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Israel will be conducting it's own investigation into all allegations of "inflicting unnecessary collateral damage". In these investigations there will be international observers that will provide all the "third party" eyes that are needed.

It won't stop the "Schabas committee" from signing it's pre-written report based on evidence fabricated by Hamas but the Israeli investigation will likely have more credibility with the people who matter.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
Pete, don't you realize that kidTokyo is a troll?

He is not interested in the facts, all he does in that quote is accuse you of what he himself does all the time. The more you respond to him as if he was on the level the more he'll do it. Please stop feeding him.

I've been dealing in fact from the beginning.

I can't cover everything given limited available time, so if there is a particular point you made that you feel I ignored, please tell me and I'll address it.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
Take a look at the NTDV reporter who documented how a rocket launcher was set up next to his hotel.

They set up the launcher under a tent and extended wires away so they would not have to be next to it during the launch. Then they covered it with brush and removed the tent. They fired it a day later. They were not at the site during the launch (but the hotel still was). They could not remove the launcher without risking being hit.

If it had not been for the hotel and civilians in it, the launcher would have been a legitimate target.

BTW, the report was published only after the reporter left Gaza and as a result of the publication he is no longer welcome in Gaza.
Anybody surprised?

Thank you, Seagull! Good link. I don't have data to watch the video ... can anyone find out how long it took them to set up the site and how long they kept firing from?

quote:
A video report from NDTV showing Gazan militants firing a rocket towards Israel from within a residential area earned the Indian broadcaster attention around the world earlier this month. It was one of the first times throughout the now six-week-long bombardment of Gaza that a major news outlet had captured the assembly of a rocket launch site on film, and the footage was quickly touted by the Israeli government and its supporters.

Journalist Sreenivasan Jain and his crew, who happened to be staying at a hotel next to where the three men began to set up the launch site, published the report on Aug. 5 after they had left the strip. T

So they'd already left the strip by august 5. I'd like to know the date they started building it, when the first rocket was fired, and when the last rocket was fired. That would answer the question of whether Israeli strikes are reducing the number of missile launches.

From Hamas' retaliation against the photographer, I'd guess that the facts are against them.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
So they'd already left the strip by august 5. I'd like to know the date they started building it, when the first rocket was fired, and when the last rocket was fired. That would answer the question of whether Israeli strikes are reducing the number of missile launches.
No it wouldn't at all. You make the insupportable logical leap that this one incident would be representative with regards to both sides.

I've already shown you the data on rocket launches over a period of months and years. Why won't you deal with that?

Why is there no buildup in the number of launches before an Israeli strike?

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Pete at Home
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Kid, if you've posted data showing how long it takes a particular rooftop site to be taken up and how long that site remains operational, then I missed it. Please repost.

If you haven't, then you fail to address what I'm talking about.

My thesis is, again, that the main reason that Hamas LAUNCHES MISSILES FROM THE TOP OF CROWDED APARTMENT BUILDINGS is to attract return fire, get Pal citizens killed, for photo op and fundraising.

Your data on the total number of rocket launches over time says jack-**** about my thesis.

I wasn't talking about the sum total reason for Hamas' existence, or for its entire operations against Israel. I'm speaking specifically about its rooftop rocket launches, which are obviously the cause of the Israeli strikes that result in the greatest number of Palestinian deaths.

As Wayward pointed out, they could easily launch from trucks in an open field and then drive away, resulting in few if any civilian casualties.

That raises the question of why the rooftop launches.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
I'm speaking specifically about its rooftop rocket launches, which are obviously the cause of the Israeli strikes that result in the greatest number of Palestinian deaths.
First you argued that air strikes were generally necessary to protect Israel, because they prevented more casualties in Israel.

Now that I've shown the evidence contradicts that, you are putting forth a more specific thesis which is nonetheless irrelevant, in light of the fact that taking out rocket launchers whether in hotels are open fields does not demonstrably reduce the risk to Israeli civilians. The danger to *Israel* is the same regardless of where the rockets are launched from. So you are now going granular to make a pointless point.

As for shooting from an open field -- the shooter would be spotted and destroyed instantly. That is almost to obvious to have to point out. Incredible that you keep putting it forth as an option.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
That raises the question of why the rooftop launches.
Range? Aim? Visibility of the target?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
I'm speaking specifically about its rooftop rocket launches, which are obviously the cause of the Israeli strikes that result in the greatest number of Palestinian deaths.
First you argued that air strikes were generally necessary to protect Israel, because they prevented more casualties in Israel.
No, I said that the air strikes against launch sites specifically were necessary to protect Israel, preventing more casualties.


quote:
Now that I've shown the evidence contradicts that,
No you haven't. You've just mangled what I said again ("air strikes generally") to stomp on a straw man.

I have no idea if Israeli air strikes "generally" are valid self defense actions. I said that taking out rooftop launchers prevents some launches and thereby saves some Israeli lives.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
[QUOTE]

As for shooting from an open field -- the shooter would be spotted and destroyed instantly.

Don't be ridiculous. With all those high buildings around the field? The truck could pull off before Israel detected the launch. In any event, Palestinians *do* sometimes use that tactic, so there's no question that they can.

Visibility? Please. These rockets are like artilery. You don't bloody AIM them with your eyeball. There's math involved. You can use a spotter on the roof of one of the buildings, or in a window, without actually building a launcher on top of the building. Think about it.

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Pete at Home
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"You make the insupportable logical leap that this one incident would be representative"

It must be somewhat representative, or Hamas wouldn't have freaked out about the clip getting aired.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
I have no idea if Israeli air strikes "generally" are valid self defense actions. I said that taking out rooftop launchers prevents some launches and thereby saves some Israeli lives.
Cease fires, which Hamas respects, save even more risk to Israeli lives by bringing the launches down to *zero*.

Air strikes, which usually target Hamas leaders in response to things like kidnappings, etc., lead to drastically increased launches, putting more Israeli lives at risk.

So while taking down a particular launcher may reduce the risk posed by that one launcher, what ultimately matters is the risk caused by Israel's actions in the long term.

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KidTokyo
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Math?
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LetterRip
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seagull,

Here are Qassam Rocket Launchers - they are literally about 20 minutes of welding and bending and a couple hundred dollars worth of steel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

So there appears to be no point in bombing the launch location since the launchers are trivially replacable.

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KidTokyo
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And no math involved in launching them. They are crude and unpredictable.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:

So there appears to be no point in bombing the launch location since the launchers are trivially replacable.

On the contrary, if Kid is right that the rooftop locations are superior since they let people "aim," that gives Israel motive to take out the rooftop locations.
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seagull
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quote:
So there appears to be no point in bombing the launch location since the launchers are trivially replacable.
That is why the IDF also bombs the factories where the launchers are manufactured.

[ August 22, 2014, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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Reposting a youtube link for non-Hebrew speakers:
An IDF reserve soldier speaking in the US
This soldier is an exchange student in the US working together with an Arab student on promoting peace. When the fighting started he volunteered to go back to Israel and join his unit in Gaza.

This soldier is not an exception. What he says represents the views on the majority of the soldiers in the IDF and the values that are taught in Israel both to children and to soldiers.

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seagull
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Hamas claims that it's goal is "lifting the siege". In the meantime Palestinians from Gaza continue to go through the Erez crossing to get medical care in Israel. After they cross the border they need transportation to the Israeli hospitals where they get their medical treatment day in and day out even as the bombs continue falling.

Hamas just bombed the crossing itself making it clear their demand for lifting the siege is disingenuous.

They demand control of all the traffic going in and out of Gaza. They insist that if they can't bring in weapons to attack Israel through the borders crossings, they will not allow medical aid either.

If anyone was wondering why the Shifa Hospital in Gaza is running out of medical supplies but not out of missiles to fire at Israel, here is another clue:

Three Israeli Arabs wounded by Gaza mortar attack
quote:
Three Israeli Arabs were wounded by a mortar shell fired at the Erez Crossing as Palestinians from Gaza were entering Israel for medical care. The attack came after Israel was hit with over 20 rockets Sunday morning and after Saturday night saw at least five rockets fired from Syria and Lebanon at the northern Golan Heights and the Western Galilee, hitting an empty house.

In the early afternoon a mortar wounded three Israeli Arabs who work as taxi drivers tasked with taking a group of Gazans from the crossing into Israel for medical care. Roughly an hour later, the IAF hit the site from where the mortar was launched. In the meantime, Hamas has taken responsiblity for the attack, saying it fired 15 mortars at the crossing.

And of course Hamas blames Israel for putting a siege on Gaza.
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