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Author Topic: James Foley Executed
Pete at Home
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We're not talking about a public execution of a criminal. We're talking about butchering a reporter on YouTube after having held him for ransom.
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Pete at Home
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There's a difference between executioners allowing a crowd to watch, versus killing someone soley for the purpose of creating a political snuff film.
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seagull
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Their alleged "crime" was collaborating with Israel. And the execution was done in public to deter other Palestinians who are fed up with Hamas from doing the same.

They were not "allowing the crowd to watch", they were displaying it to the crowd as a threat. The difference between ISIS and Hamas is that Hamas' intended audience is smaller and more localized so they do not need to put it on You-Tube.

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Pete at Home
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I'm talking about the Foley execution, seagull. I think you've confused threads. I do regard the executions you speak of as terroristic, but not on the same level of barbarism as the Foley execution. Public execution of accused traitors is just a throwback to 19th century polite society. The Foley snuff is the moral equivalent of KKK lynchings.
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seagull
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Apparently pictures of the Hamas executions were posted on Hamas Facebook pages. Some may have been taken down since then. I don;t know if they were removed to avoid violating the terms of service or because of the bad PR they caused.

Hamas is also publishing calls for collaborators telling them to turn themselves in to Hamas. They say that even those who turn themselves in will be executed but that their status will be that of a Shahid (*Martyr") rather than a traitor so that their families will not have to suffer for their so called "crime".

Hamas and ISIS are two branches of the same movement. They use the same tactics they just have different priorities.

[ August 22, 2014, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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Seneca
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While the USSR had many, many problems it seemed to know how to deal with Islamist kidnappers pretty well.

http://articles.philly.com/1988-02-26/news/26242928_1_islamic-liberation-organization-soviets-hezbollah

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Should we dismiss Hagel's assessment?
Can't help it, but it makes me think about the 98% of scientists who are convinced or highly confident about the threat of man-made global warming vs. the extremely loud and nasty push-back from the right-wing in this country who claim they are either deluded or corrupt. Almost none of those who make that claim are themselves scientists.

They are also extremely skeptical if not downright hostile to almost every action taken by the Obama Administration and the executive agencies and departments beneath him, but they have no doubt whatsoever about ISIS' threat to the US, despite their extremely hostile opposition to Hagel getting the position he now holds because of his lack of qualifications and the lack of real evidence of ISIS' ultimate intentions.

Why are those who say we can't believe our lying eyes about so many things so utterly convinced about this one?

[ August 22, 2014, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
So it's a mixed message, is it a threat or not?
quote:
On Thursday, it boiled over at the Pentagon, where Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel painted a new and more dangerous picture of the threat that the Islamic State poses to Americans and U.S. interests.

The group "is as sophisticated and well-funded as any group that we have seen. They're beyond just a terrorist group," Hagel said in response to a question about whether the Islamic State posed a similar threat to the United States as al Qaeda did before Sept. 11, 2001.

"They marry ideology, a sophistication of strategic and tactical military prowess. They're tremendously well-funded. This is beyond anything that we've seen," Hagel said, adding that "the sophistication of terrorism and ideology married with resources now poses a whole new dynamic and a new paradigm of threats to this country."

Should we dismiss Hagel's assessment?
No; we should publicly pretend that what Hagel said is true, since that posture will reduce ISIS fundraising. But privately we should recognize that ISIS is a threat, and do all we can to arm and aid its enemies and punish those who fund it.

Officially we should act as if we view them like Boko Haram. Unofficially, we should treat them like a bigger threat than Al Qaeda.

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AI Wessex
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I mostly agree with that. The key is to deal with them effectively but not necessarily publicly. I'm convinced that Obama has been successful behind the scenes on a number of international issues that we simply don't know about. His public statements tend to draw the most abject opposition, which weakens his ability to act. For instance, now that we know about the failed attempt to rescue Foley I expect we will hear the usual bobbleheads on FOX tear him apart for trying and failing.
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kmbboots
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Okay. One last time before I give up in despair at how you twist things.

I am not equating particular acts of violence. I am saying that all humans - white, black, Christian, Muslim, whatever - are capable of doing horrible, unimaginable things to each other. Look at abu Ghraib, look at the KKK, look at the guys who tied Matthew Shepherd to a fence, look at the people shouting death threats at children on our border. Look at the pictures of the corpses of children killed by our airstrikes. None of this excused the obscene death of James Foley. He was one of ours and our community is grieving. But it is vastly more complicated than good guys and bad guys and kill all the bad guys and have a happy ending. It is too easy to decide there can be no "common ground" which leaves us with only the option of killing them. It is too comfortable to decide that it is only monsters that do things like that and shed any responsibility for how we respond.

In terms that some of you may understand, we decide that they are varelse so we can exterminate them without guilt. I think that we can do better than that and that we must.

Twist this however you want. Maybe some of you will get it.

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AI Wessex
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I completely agree with kmbboots on this. The problem is that most people rank and sort atrocities in (at least) two dimensions based on who did it to who and who's winning and losing. In my mind the fundamental problem is that humans are built to come together in groups and communities for protection, and protection implies aggression. We can't have a peaceful world until everyone agrees to set aside aggression and treat it as an inherent evil. Regrettably, I know of no country with the power to use aggression against its neighbors that is yet willing to commit to do that.
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seagull
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quote:
we decide that they are varelse so we can exterminate them without guilt
Right now it is the Yasidis that are being exterminated while we sit idly by wondering why there are fewer of them on the mountain.

I would not be surprised if the Kurds and Yasidis decided that we are Varelse. Can't really blame the Iraqi Shiites for deciding that years ago.

In the interest of cross cultural understanding, I have to point out that the word they use to refer to what we call "varelse" might also be translated into English as "infidel".

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Pete at Home
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Kate, i'd love.to hear an alternative to.killing ISIS that doesnt result in genocide and a host of.ills far more.hideous than those that arise from us killing ISIS.

If you see a possibility of common ground or making a morally acceptable peace, then lay out your specific plan as to how this could be done. Your previous arguments just didnt work.

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Pete at Home
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" . But it is vastly more complicated than good guys and bad guys "

Many things are more complicated than good guys and bad guys. But if you had any coherent argument that the execution of Foley was more complex, then why not just explain that complexity rather than taking us on a Easter egg hunt with KKK Klan Changs and public executions

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Pete at Home
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"In terms that some of you may understand, we decide that they are varelse so we can exterminate them without guilt. I think that we can do better than that and that we must."

Your motive inferences against us are not persuasive. If you think they aren't varelse, then present evidence that they aren't varelse.

Besides, I don't want America to "exterminate" ISIS. I think most people currently fighting with ISIS aren't remotely believing in their crap. My argument isn't for extermination but for

* Arming the kurds to protect their own lands and the Yazidi lands against ISIS invasion and massacres.
*Air-drops of medicines and food.
*Air cover to prevent ISIS from using our heavy weaponry to exterminate other people.
*Use of diplomatic pressure to shut down the international financing of ISIS.

Which of these do you really have a problem with? I remember last week you seemed against airlifting the Yazidis; that was really weird. I really don't get what you're about here.

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Pete at Home
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This is James Foley:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-28865508

quote:
Mr Foley, 40, came from the US city of Rochester in New Hampshire.

He was a teacher in Arizona, Massachusetts and Chicago before switching to journalism in the mid-2000s.

...
In 2011, he went to Libya to cover the uprising against Col Muammar Gaddafi, embedding himself with rebel fighters.

"The idea with the Libyan revolution is, it's journalists embedding with rebels, and that's essentially what we did," he recalled.

In April 2011, Mr Foley and three other journalists were ambushed by Gaddafi's forces.

Photojournalist Anton Hammerl was killed, while Mr Foley and the others were detained.

"A soldier's pressing your face into the bed of a truck, bleeding from the scalp - it's the worst kind of shock," Mr Foley said afterwards.

...
Following his ordeal, he was eager to cover the situation in Syria, saying he was "drawn to the drama of the conflict and trying to expose untold stories."

He began reporting the violence committed by forces loyal to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, before he was captured in November 2012.

Max Fisher of the Vox news website has said he will celebrate James Foley's "dedication to truth and understanding".

Penny Sukraj, the widow of journalist Anton Hammerl, who was close friends with Mr Foley, said: "He was passionate about getting out there and telling the stories about the most vulnerable people and the effects of the different conflicts and wars that had ravaged their lives."

"He lived and breathed the conflict journalism that he was involved with and not for any self-glorification purpose at all," she added.

Freelance journalists are particularly at risk in troubled areas, without few guarantees of their safety.

But James Foley had a passion for it nonetheless: "There's extreme violence, but there's a will to find who these people really are. And I think that's what's really inspiring about it."

"Jim gave his life trying to expose the world to the suffering of the Syrian people"

- James Foley's mother, Diane Foley.

The best retaliation we can accomplish for James Foley is to get his story out to the world, especially to the Muslim world. Let them know just what sort of man he was. Don't even mention ISIS. Let them put together that this is someone who gave his life to exposing Syrian oppression. And he was butchered live, by a greedy group of supposed muslims who wanted to get rich off his ransom. 132 million dollars that he didn't have.
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seagull
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Pete, It's too late to use "diplomatic pressure to shut down the international financing of ISIS". Having taken Mosul and raided the banks there, they are the best funded terror organization in the world. Their control of the Oil fields in the area can also provide a significant source of continuous funding and if you think diplomacy can stop them from selling it you are more naive than I thought.
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Seneca
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Given ISIS's financial strength we have no choice but to defeat them militarily.
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AI Wessex
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They are a militarist movement and will have to be stopped by military means. No legitimate country has offered them any recognition, so they will find their progress limited outside of the parts of Iraq and Syria they control now. We have to starve the beast of money by freezing all their assets held abroad and sanctioning any country that gives them support, though I think few will.

Air strikes and drone attacks are our only realistic military options in the near term. We need to arm and train legitimate groups that are threatened by them and willing to fight, and support other countries who are within ISIS striking distance.

Unless we're going to be willing to launch yet another full-scale ground war in Iraq, which the US population will not do without REAL PROOF of a threat within our borders, that's all we can do.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
Pete, It's too late to use "diplomatic pressure to shut down the international financing of ISIS". Having taken Mosul and raided the banks there, they are the best funded terror organization in the world.

1/3 of a billion dollars in money stolen from Mosul is good money, but the 2 billion financed through Qatar banks is more money. If they have to carry hard cash rather than using banks, that's going to slow things down, and funds will be lost/pilfered.

Furthermore, punishing the banks that got the ball rolling will send a message about future funding of genocidal and terrorist fanatics.

Given the history of the Third Reich, I'd think you as a Jew would be sympathetic to the view of holding financial institutions accountable for facilitating atrocities and laundering the proceeds thereof.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
They are a militarist movement and will have to be stopped by military means.

Yes, but not necessarily by our military.

The USSR collapse was escalated by a combination of US political and economic pressures, and our support of their military enemies. And the Kurds are more far more sane, reliable, and moral than the folks we relied on against the USSR.

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Seneca
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quote:
Unless we're going to be willing to launch yet another full-scale ground war in Iraq, which the US population will not do without REAL PROOF of a threat within our borders, that's all we can do.
Real proof? Like this?
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/08/22/ominous-tweet-connects-isis-threat-in-chicago/

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
Their control of the Oil fields in the area can also provide a significant source of continuous funding and if you think diplomacy can stop them from selling it you are more naive than I thought.

If you think that's what I'm advocating, you've read my posts less carefully than I hoped [Frown] I've repeatedly emphasized helping the Kurds to retake Mosul and Kirkuk. That would be the oil fields. I even said that if the Kurds cannot retake Mosul and Kirkuk with the weapons and air cover we provide, that we SHOULD put boots on the ground. But I'm confident that's not necessary if we sufficiently arm the Kurds and promise them to support their claim over those areas if they take them.
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seagull
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Pete, I am on the same page with you on the other three points you raised. All I said is that at this point it is too late to use diplomacy to stop their funding. Diplomacy will not bring back the assets they stole from the banks in Mosul and the money they are getting now by selling oil on the black market will not suddenly switch hands when the Kurds or some other US ally gets control of the oil fields in some future date.
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Pete at Home
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I agree that diplomacy will not bring back the assets they stole from the banks in Mosul and the money they are getting now by selling oil on the black market will not suddenly switch hands when the Kurds or some other US ally gets control of the oil fields in some future date. But it will help to prevent future donations to ISIS, to prevent easy laundering and access to the money stolen from Mosul, and will set precedents that will inconvenience other hateful groups.

Regardless, diplomacy might not be enough, period. I'd not be adverse to having US special forces recoup the money for Mosul and fund the Kurdish resistance by robbing Qatar banks.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
Unless we're going to be willing to launch yet another full-scale ground war in Iraq, which the US population will not do without REAL PROOF of a threat within our borders, that's all we can do.
Real proof? Like this?
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/08/22/ominous-tweet-connects-isis-threat-in-chicago/

You call that proof? [Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]
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Seneca
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I think a picture in front of a US government building on our soil with a threat attached is proof positive that ISIS has agents here.
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LetterRip
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Or it is proof positive that someone can google a picture of a US government building and photoshop.

Or proof that someone has a weird sense of humor.

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Seneca
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How can a threat to inflict a terrorist attack construed to be funny in any sense?
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LetterRip
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There are idiots who have done similar things 'for fun'.
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LetterRip
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For a recent instance, see this 'Al Queda Terror Threat' from a 14 year old girl.

http://www.businessinsider.com/twitterer-hints-of-terrorist-attack-2014-4

[ August 23, 2014, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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cherrypoptart
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Egyptian feminist Aliaa Magda Elmahdy has a bold if somewhat graphic response up on the internet for ISIS. I'll tell you what. She's got more balls than any American liberal or feminist I've ever seen or heard of, bar none.
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Pete at Home
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Given the particular sensitivities of islamofascists, she should market a line of tampons with the face of the ISIS fuhrer on them.
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Pete at Home
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Abu bakr al bagdaddy
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Pete at Home
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Cherry, she isnt exactly doing arab secularists any favors.with her photos ... ultimately about as helpful as "the "innocense of muslims" movie.
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Seneca
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Steven Sotloff has now been publicly beheaded via the internet. And Obama is silent and continued to fund-raise until finally he went to a NATO meeting.

I really wish Obama would give a great speech to these terrorist scum and tell them that regardless of whatever allies we may or may not have coming with us we will hunt these barbarians forever and if they are so keen on living in the 14th century we will blast them back to it.

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Pete at Home
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Why would you want Obama to REWARD the terrorists by giving the precise attention that they were seeking?

I'd rather our president fund-raise for the Democrats than give the speech you suggest which in effect would be fund-raising for ISIS.

The 14th century was the pinnacle of Islamic civilization and power. It's been all downhill from there. The "threat" you describe would be like threatening to blast the US back to July 21, 1969.

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Seneca
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Such a speech would not be a reward, not if it was followed up by the proper action. ISIS has committed the worst tactical mistake possible: identifying themselves as a regional power with a base of operations and a defined geographical area. They are not some shadowy network of terrorists with no country or base. They can be eliminated.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Such a speech would not be a reward, not if it was followed up by the proper action. ISIS has committed the worst tactical mistake possible: identifying themselves as a regional power with a base of operations and a defined geographical area. They are not some shadowy network of terrorists with no country or base. They can be eliminated.

US boots on the ground? How many, how long?
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Seneca
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ISIS is getting rich from their new territorial possessions. They will use that to make good on their threat of attacking American cities. Take the cost of a major US terrorist attack and see if it's cheaper to attack ISIS in Iraq instead.
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