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Author Topic: Hamas official claims responsibility for murder of Israeli teens
seagull
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Hamas official claims responsibility for murder of Israeli teens

Liberal Principles include:
quote:
the responsibility to regularly question our assumptions to ensure that we have a proper basis for ethical assessments. Our judgments should be made with the humility that comes from knowing the limits of human fallibility, and the recognition that making false moral judgments is itself an immoral action.
...

There is a moral responsibility for spreading falsehoods intentionally, and there is a moral responsibility to correct yourself if you later discover that what you have discussed turns out to be false. The same principle applies to logical consistency ...

I wonder if the person quoted above lives by the Liberal Principles he espouses.
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KidTokyo
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Once again, deceptive reporting. Even the articles with headlines saying he "took responsibility" for it don't actually say that.

From Jerusalem Post:

quote:

A senior Hamas official admitted for the first time on Wednesday that the organization's armed wing, the Kassam Brigades, was behind the kidnapping and murder of Israeli teens Nafatli Fraenkel, Gil-Ad Shaer and Eyal Yifrah in the West Bank in June.

The Hamas official, Salah al-Aruri made the comments during a conference of Islamic clerics in Turkey. He praised the "heroic action of the Kassam Brigades who kidnapped three settlers in Hebron."

So this guy in Turkey said that they did it. He didn't take any personal responsibility, as far as I can tell. Of course, he very well could have, who knows?

Perhaps now that Israel knows where he is, they will stop bombing the living daylights out of Gaza and aim for Turkey. Yes, I'm sure that will happen.

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Pete at Home
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Of course they arent going to. The govtturkey hasnt attacked.them.
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velcro
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Kid,

"This guy in Turkey" is Saleh Arouri, "Arouri is one of Hamas’ most senior figures. He founded Hamas’ military wing in the West Bank two decades ago and now commands the group’s operations in the area from exile in Turkey. He was deported several years ago in a deal that freed him from Israeli prison."

Your claim that "He didn't take any personal responsibility" is a non sequitur.

Hamas, through its representative, took responsibility. But you knew that. Why are you avoiding the unavoidable meaning of the statement?

Your suggestion that Israel stop attacks on Hamas militants firing rockets from Gaza because the spokesman happened to be in Turkey is, well, lacking in a certain coherence, shall we say.

You are better than this. Hamas did the kidnapping. Acknowledge that and we can move on.

BTW, here is the AP version, via WaPo, if you don't trust the original source.

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LetterRip
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Again Al Qassam Brigades != Hamas.

Think Sein Fein and IRA. So Hamas didn't take credit, a former member of Al Qassam Brigades did.

This gives a breakdown of whos who in the groups, they have independent leadership, independent funding, etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/15/world/meast/hamas-leaders-whos-who/

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velcro
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Letter,

Not former.

From your source:
quote:
Al Arouri is the head of the Qassam Brigades in the West Bank, and he is accused of catalyzing this latest conflict. Israeli officials say he's the person who ordered the abduction of the three Israeli teens, whose bodies were later found in a field in the West Bank.
quote:
"None of these movements are monoliths," said Abi Ali.
Still, he said, "what we are seeing in this conflict is the military wing asserting itself as the one in control."

The leadership is not independent. It is not entirely dependent, true. But the political wing explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel, and does absolutely nothing to stop the kidnappings and the rocket fire. So it is a distinction without a difference.
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LetterRip
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velcro,

The Black Panthers and Martin Luther King were both part of the civil rights movement.

White supremacists usually self identify as Republicans.

Ecoterrorists usually self identify as Democrats.

Groups can share political goals and have some overlap in membership yet have entirely different views on acceptable means and ultimate ends.

Hamas will probably will recognize Israel. Hamas does not do kidnappings or attacks, and has no power to stop them (how exactly would you propose that they stop them?? Israel has far more power and control and can't do so). Hamas doesn't provide funding, man power, intelligence, etc. to al Qassam.

They are essentially completely independent groups, and yes - their leadership is independent. Hamas leaders have zero authority over al-Qassam, and al-Qassam has zero authority over Hamas. In what way are they 'not independent'?

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seagull
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quote:
Again Al Qassam Brigades != Hamas.
True, they are not the same. Al Qassam are the military wing of Hamas.

quote:
Think Sein Fein and IRA.
This comparison is relevant in context unlike the others you gave later:

The black panthers were not Martin Luther King's military wing (in fact he was a pacifist and coincidentally a strong supporter of Israel and Zionism).

White supremacists are not the military wing of the Republican party (although in some countries they are the military wings of Neo-Nazi parties).

LR, I do not think I need to go on with the rest of your list. Why not stick to the "Sein Fein and IRA" analogy? Is there something you wanted to add with the less appropriate examples?


quote:
Hamas will probably will recognize Israel.
Several decades ago there might have been a [slight] hope for that. The current dynamics both within Hamas itself and in the overall Middle East seem to be moving in the opposite direction.

quote:
Hamas didn't take credit, a former member of Al Qassam Brigades did.
The military wing of Hamas took credit.
It's like saying that Israel is not responsible for what is happening in Gaza because Israel and the IDF are not the same thing.

I agere that al-Qassam and Hamas are intentionally set up to provide the political wing of Hamas with plausible deniability:
quote:
the separation of the political and military wings shielded Hamas' political leaders from responsibility for terrorism while the plausible deniability this provided made Hamas an eligible representative for peace negotiations as had happened with Sinn Féin's Gerry Adams.
But pretending that al-Qassam is not actually an integral part of Hamas is a bit of a stretch.

quote:
Hamas leaders have zero authority over al-Qassam
The Hamas political wing local to Gaza apparently has little control over the military wing these days. However, as recent news indicate, even when both the political and military wing in Gaza were interested in a cease fire, the political wing in Qatar (Khaled Mashaal) had enough authority to torpedo the negotiations.

There are obvious differences between the different roles and the influence of one on the other may be limited. But limited influence is not the same as "zero authority". The military wing of Hamas obviously listens and takes orders from Mashaal (who holds the purse strings for now). The political wing in Gaza obviously takes it's cues from the military wing (so as not to lose face and thereby become irrelevant).

There are also differences between the roles of a prime-minister, Defense Minister and chief-of-staff in Israel (and their equivalents in other countries). The flow of authority may vary between countries and organizations - no two are exactly alike. But there is obvious coordination between the different wings of Hamas.

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seagull
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quote:
Hamas does not do kidnappings or attacks
As I said above the Al-Qassam Brigades (the military wing of Hamas) obviously do both kidnappings and attacks. However, here are some links that show that even the political wing of Hamas is calling for them to do so:

Hamas leader urges Palestinians to kidnap Israeli soldiers

Hamas Leaders Glorify Kidnapping of Israelis

"Hamas to kids: Shoot all the Jews" - is Al Aqsa TV part of the political or military wing of Hamas?)

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Groups can share political goals and have some overlap in membership yet have entirely different views on acceptable means and ultimate ends.
That's obviously true but your examples are completely off the rails.

quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
velcro,

The Black Panthers and Martin Luther King were both part of the civil rights movement.

The black panthers were not the Military Wing of Martin Luther King, LR. That's a terrible analogy. The Sein Fein/IRA was a closer analogy, but Hamas is more closely knit than that with the AQB, since they govern Gaza together, and it's harder to tell where one ends and another begins.

quote:
White supremacists usually self identify as Republicans.

Ecoterrorists usually self identify as Democrats.

Bleh. First of all, that's not true. Second, even if it was true, most republicans openly loathe the sheet-heads, etc. And you'd expect a Republican government to support prosecution of white supremacist violence, and a Democratic government to support prosecution of ecoterrorists, not to execute people accused of ratting on them.
quote:


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KidTokyo
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Velcro,

Plenty of groups other than Hamas could have been responsible, no one in Hamas has corroborated, and Israel's named suspects are known rouges outside of Hamas chain of command (Qawasmeh clan). Even Israel's intelligence agency doubts Al Nouri's claim.

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Pete at Home
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Even if these attacks aren't incited by Hamas leadership, they are incited by Hamas leadership.

That's the exact winning argument that was used to hold the KKK responsible for the murder of Michael Donald. The links Seagull provide show hateful murder-inspiring propaganda by Hamas that's no less hateful than this KKK propaganda that incited Michael Donald's lynching.

quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
quote:
Hamas does not do kidnappings or attacks
As I said above the Al-Qassam Brigades (the military wing of Hamas) obviously do both kidnappings and attacks. However, here are some links that show that even the political wing of Hamas is calling for them to do so:

Hamas leader urges Palestinians to kidnap Israeli soldiers

Hamas Leaders Glorify Kidnapping of Israelis

"Hamas to kids: Shoot all the Jews" - is Al Aqsa TV part of the political or military wing of Hamas?)



[ August 22, 2014, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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seagull
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I am still waiting to see if the person quoted in the opening post lives by the Liberal Principles he espouses.
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KidTokyo
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Pete, there are other more radical groups in Gaza than Hamas. Why aren't they potentially responsible?
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Pete at Home
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Did other groups.claim reponsibility? Since hamas makes it a matter of public policy to execute anyone who gives information to Israel, they are at best collaborators in the kidnapping. Since anyone who had information that could have led to the teams being released,, would have been afraid to come forward because of Hamas threats.

[ August 22, 2014, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Seneca
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How can Hamas recognize Israel as a legitimate state if one of their founding principles from their charter is the destruction of Israel?
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KidTokyo
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Pete one guy in Turkey saying it is so does not make it so. Again, Israeli's intelligence pegged two suspects who were rogue from Hamas, i.e. beyond Hamas' control.
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KidTokyo
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quote:
How can Hamas recognize Israel as a legitimate state if one of their founding principles from their charter is the destruction of Israel?
They can't. By the same token, how can Likud recognize Palestine when their Charter calls for total annexation of "Greater Israel?"
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Pete at Home
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Again: Since hamas makes it a matter of public policy to execute anyone who gives information to Israel, they are at best collaborators in the kidnapping. Since anyone who had information that could have led to the teams being released,, would have been afraid to come forward because of Hamas threats.

That links Hamas to the killings. That's the exact winning argument that was used to hold the KKK responsible for the murder of Michael Donald. The links Seagull provide show hateful murder-inspiring propaganda by Hamas that's no less hateful than this KKK propaganda that incited Michael Donald's lynching. KKK leadership might not have planned Michael Donald's specific lynching but they had responsibility for it because of their rhetoric.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
How can Hamas recognize Israel as a legitimate state if one of their founding principles from their charter is the destruction of Israel?
They can't. By the same token, how can Likud recognize Palestine when their Charter calls for total annexation of "Greater Israel?"
Except Likud is not the government of Israel. They are temporarily members in a governing COALITION and do not set policy unilaterally. Your comparison fails.

Hamas is the sole governing authority in Gaza.

[ August 22, 2014, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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LetterRip
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Pete,

quote:
he black panthers were not the Military Wing of Martin Luther King, LR. That's a terrible analogy. The Sein Fein/IRA was a closer analogy, but Hamas is more closely knit than that with the AQB, since they govern Gaza together, and it's harder to tell where one ends and another begins.
The Black Panthers were the militant wing of the civil rights movement, and Dr. King headed the civil rights movement. I'm pointing out that 'militant wing' doesn't imply endorsement or approval by the leadership of the movement or group for which the militant wing is associated with.


Animal Liberation front is the militant wing of the animal rights movement.

National Abortion Federation is the militant wing of the pro life movement.

Sometimes there is agreement or approval of some or all actions, other times there is little aggreement or approval.

Whenever reports say Hamas, and they actually are referring to al-Qassam Brigades, they are slandering Hamas. Just like stating 'the civil rights movement' when referring to the immoral actions of the Black Panthers, would be slandering the civil rights movement.

Or saying 'environmentalists' when talking about the actions of the ALF.

Or saying 'pro life' when referring to actions of the National Abortion Federation.

seagull,

Hamas leadership appears to approve of kidnapping Israeli soldiers to exchange for Palestinian prisoners. Your second link inserts the word 'Israeli's' when it is quite clear that he has only approved of kidnapping Israel soldiers to trade for Palestinian prisoners, not kidnapping and murdering of civilians (which is the implication of the editing of the quote).

Contrary to your links assertion - all, or even most Palestinian prisoners are not 'convicted terrorists'.

quote:
On 11 December 2012, the office of then Prime Minister Salam Fayyad stated that since 1967, 800,000 Palestinians, or roughly 20% of the total population and 40% of the male population, had been imprisoned by Israel at one point in time. About 100,000 had been held in administrative detention.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel

Regarding Al Aqsa TV - it definitely airs some pretty vile and abhorrent stuff, some of which is targeted at children. It appears to be headed by the Hamas Interior Minister, though a spokesperson for Hamas has stated that it doesn't reflect the views of Hamas. The head of Al Aqsa seems like he would be a legitimate target for the Israelis, as is the infrastructure for Al Aqsa.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
Pete,

quote:
he black panthers were not the Military Wing of Martin Luther King, LR. That's a terrible analogy. The Sein Fein/IRA was a closer analogy, but Hamas is more closely knit than that with the AQB, since they govern Gaza together, and it's harder to tell where one ends and another begins.
The Black Panthers were the militant wing of the civil rights movement, and Dr. King headed the civil rights movement. I'm pointing out that 'militant wing' doesn't imply endorsement or approval by the leadership of the movement or group for which the militant wing is associated with.
You are wrong. Movements don't have wings. Organizations have wings. Dr. King was in no way a "leader" to the Black Panthers. No way, nohow.
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LetterRip
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Pete,

quote:
You are wrong. Movements don't have wings.
organized movements do have wings.

quote:
Organizations have wings. Dr. King was in no way a "leader" to the Black Panthers. No way, nohow.
You are wrong,

quote:
I worked with and gave the Black Panther Party support to Dr. King on his Poor People's March. Dr. Ralph Abernathy called me personally and said "Mr. Seale, Dr. King would like to know if you would be willing to participate in a broad roundtable of organizations across the country working together in the struggle to end institutionalized racism." I said, "Yes, the Black Panther Party will definitely work with you and Dr. King on anything you want to do." People don't know that we crossed those lines.
http://www.nuvo.net/ACulturalManifesto/archives/2013/01/17/black-panther-party-cofounder-on-mlk
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seagull
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LetterRip

Two different parties agreeing ta cause (as in your quote above) is not the same as two "wings" or branches of the same organization.

Are you trying to argue that the Al-Qassam brigades are not the military wing of Hamas?

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seagull
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Mashaal admits Hamas members kidnapped and murdered Naftali, Gilad and Eyal

quote:
Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal admitted during a Yahoo News interview on Saturday that Hamas was involved in the kidnapping of three Israeli teens in June.
He goes on to claim the well prepared "plausible deniability" by saying that he did not know about it in advance. But as the links I posted show, he was calling for the kidnappings BEFORE they happened.

As to the claim that he called for Kidnapping soldiers and that these were teenagers:

quote:
He added that the members did not carry out the attack on orders from the political branch of Hamas. "We were not aware of this action taken by this group of Hamas members in advance," he said. "But we understand people are frustrated under the occupation and the oppression, and they take all kinds of action."

"Our view is that soldiers and settlers on the West Bank are aggressors, and they are illegally living in this occupied and stolen land. And the right to resist is the right of Palestinians."

So apparently, it is not just soldiers but settler teenagers as well that according to the POLITICAL WING OF HAMAS are legitimate targets for kidnapping and murder.

Yesterday a 4-Year-Old Israeli Boy was Killed by Mortar Fired From Near UNRWA School in Gaza
The rockets were probably fired by the Hamas military wing but it is clear that orders to the military wing are coming from Mashaal who is pressured by Qatar to continue the bloodshed on both sides.

[ August 23, 2014, 04:03 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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Pete at Home
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I said:
quote:

You are wrong. Movements don't have wings. Organizations have wings

quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
Pete,

quote:
You are wrong. Movements don't have wings.[DELETING the following statement: "ORGANIZATIONS HAVE WINGS]
organized movements do have wings.
[Mad]
This isn't like you, LR. [Frown]

quote:


quote:
Organizations have wings. Dr. King was in no way a "leader" to the Black Panthers. No way, nohow.
You are wrong,

quote:
I worked with and gave the Black Panther Party support to Dr. King on his Poor People's March. Dr. Ralph Abernathy called me personally and said "Mr. Seale, Dr. King would like to know if you would be willing to participate in a broad roundtable of organizations across the country working together in the struggle to end institutionalized racism." I said, "Yes, the Black Panther Party will definitely work with you and Dr. King on anything you want to do." People don't know that we crossed those lines.
http://www.nuvo.net/ACulturalManifesto/archives/2013/01/17/black-panther-party-cofounder-on-mlk
Different organizations may work together on a common cause. NARAL worked together with some pro-life groups to oppose Clinton's so-called "Welfare Reform" which in some cases encourages abortion. That doesn't mean that NARAL is a wing of the pro-life movement.

It's misleading to describe the black panthers and Dr. King as part of one "organized movement." That was J Edgar Hoover wet dream, LR. If it had been plausible, then Hoover's investigation of King would have been justified. It wasn't plausible and it wasn't justified.

And it's misleading in the extreme to suggest that the relationship between Dr. King and the Black Panthers is analogous to the relationship between Qassam and Hamas. Martin Luther King didn't put people to death for giving up information on the Black Panthers.

You're a credible voice in this community and I hate to see you do this to your credibility.

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Pete at Home
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There are extremist sadistic terrorists among the israeli settlers as well:
quote:
The kidnapping and murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir occurred early on the morning of 2 July 2014, a day after the burial of three murdered Israeli teens. Khdeir, a 16-year-old Palestinian, was forced into a car on an East Jerusalem street.[1] His family immediately reported the fact to Israeli Police who located his charred body few hours later at Givat Shaul in the Jerusalem Forest. Preliminary results from the autopsy suggested that he was beaten and burnt while still alive.
This is how a civilized society deals with an atrocity committed by its own side:
quote:
The Israeli police investigated several possible motives for his killing. The preliminary evidence indicated that it was probably a revenge attack for the kidnap-murders of the Israeli teens. On Sunday, 6 July, police took into custody six Jewish suspects, all settlers, for interrogation, stating that they believed the murder was most likely carried out by 'terrorists' as revenge. One confessed quickly, incriminating three others, some of them minors, and they were put on remand for 8 days. Within a day, three had confessed and reenacted the murder at the scene of the crime. Three other suspects were released as unconnected with the crime, though they heard about it from the alleged murderers.

The day the suspects were arrested, the family of one of the Israeli victims, the Fraenkels, called the family of Abu Khdeir to condemn the murder and offer their condolences. The Fraenkels said they understand the magnitude of the loss and that they oppose any act of violence either by Jews or Arabs. The attack was condemned by the government in Israel. The murder was condemned by the families of the three murdered Israeli teens, who sent Khdeir's family their condolences.

In the West Bank, Hamas would have executed anyone who reported someone who kidnapped and murdered an Israeli.

But that's not to say that all is well in Israel. Despicably, the butchers that committed this atrocity will face a lenient justice system that fails to recognize the horror of a hate crime unless the perp is a nazi. Furthermore, given the history with Baruch Goldstein and Rabin's murderer, we can expect hate groups in Michigan and New York to send money to the killers' hateful families:

quote:
Khdeir's family members have, however, blamed government incitement for the murder and rejected the PM's condolence message, as well as a visit by then President Shimon Peres
I think that the Khedeir family and anyone that sends money to them should be placed on the no fly list.

Furthermore:
quote:
In the aftermath of Khdeir's murder, one of his cousins, a 15 year-old Palestinian-American boy, was brutally beaten by Israeli police officers in an assault caught on camera. Another one of his cousins, a 19 year-old who has the same name as him, Mohammed Abu Khdeir, has been held by the Israeli police since a 28 July protest. Though he is an American citizen, Israel did not notify US authorities of the arrest and the US has accused it of apparently singling out Khdeir family members for arrest.
It gets worse. The New York Times lied and told its readers that Mohammed Abu Khdeir was handcuffed after being "subdued," when in fact fully available VIDEO footage shows that Mohammed Abu Khdeir was first handcuffed by Israeli police, and THEN beaten.

The Khedeir family is lamentably right about the Israeli government inciting the murder:

quote:
On the day of the funeral, Israeli premier Benjamin Netanyahu called for vengeance on his Twitter account. Hundreds of Israelis rampaged through Jerusalem yelling "Death to Arabs", endeavoured to assault passers-by, who had to be extricated by police. The marches counted with the presence of prominent right-wing figures such as former MK Michael Ben-Ari and Jewish Agency officers. Referring to "the enemy", Ben-Ari called on Israelis to "[m]ake Ramadan into a month of darkness for them!" People in one of the "Death to Arabs" march told a CNN reporter that, "after sundown we will attack them". The evening before the killing, a group of racist supporters of the Beitar football club, known as La Familia, held a violent demonstration, in which they chanted "death to Arabs" and harassed Palestinians nearby. In Hebron, settlers assaulted Palestinian residents; a 9-year-old child was run over by a settler car in Bethlehem. A 'rash of racist incitement on Israeli social media' broke out after the deaths were revealed. Rabbi Noam Perel, head of Bnei Akiva, the world's largest religious-Zionist youth organization, urged on his Facebook page that the IDF be transformed into an army of avengers, which "will not stop at 300 Philistine foreskins". He also wrote:

The travesty will be atoned for with the enemy's blood, not with our tears. A whole nation and thousands of years of history demands revenge. The government of Israel is convened for a meeting of vengeance that is not a mourning sitting.

On the same day, a Palestinian teenager was killed by Israeli forces in a Jenin refugee camp. The killing was widely celebrated on Israeli social media as "revenge". A Facebook page "The People of Israel Demand Revenge" calling passionately for "revenge", was set up by a 17-year-old, showing soldiers posing and touting their rifles, posting messages of "revenge". The page quickly gathered 35,000 "likes", but was taken down after the news of Khdeir's murder. One item submitted to the site had a photograph by two smiling Israeli girls with a sign saying, "Hating Arabs is not racism, it's values!"

The response is too little too late, but better than nothing:
quote:
At the recommendation of Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein, the Israeli police launched a probe into call for incitement on social media. In addition, the IDF announced that soldiers posting messages or photos that pledged to avenge the teens' murder or used racist language will be severely punished, viewing such slogans "with the utmost severity"
I think that the US should make a big deal about putting all those named inciters onto the no fly list, and warn Americans that funding those persons and organizations will bring them likewise into scrutiny. They are enemies of peace as much as Hamas.

[ August 23, 2014, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
According to the Palestinian Attorney General, Dr. Muhammed Abed al-Ghani al-Aweiwi, an autopsy conducted at the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute in Tel Aviv revealed that the child had soot in his lungs, indicating that he was alive and breathing when he was torched.
Apparently the Palestinian-haters are going back to Moloch-Baal.

quote:
On sighting Mohammed Abu Khdeir, they asked for directions to Tel Aviv, and he gave a rough indication, in poor Hebrew. As he began to dial his cellphone, perhaps suspicious, the minors clamped hands over his mouth and dragged him into the car where, after he yelled "Allahu Akhbar" he was choked, and the ringleader gave instructions he be finished off. On arriving at the forest, he was beaten repeatedly with a crowbar, each blow accompanied by a recital of Jewish victims of terrorism: "This is for the Fogel family, and this is for Shalhevet Pass". They then poured gasoline over him, set him alight, got rid of the evidence, and then poured their hearts out to each other regretting as compassionate Jews the error they had committed. "We’re not like the sons of Ishmael [meaning Arabs]… We’re Jews. We have a heart."


[ August 23, 2014, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu urged a swift inquiry into the "reprehensible murder" and called on people to respect the rule of law.
Odd thing for him to say, since he clearly solicited extralegal violence when he tweeted for "vengeance."
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Rachel Fraenkel, mother of 16 year-old Naftali, when she heard that a Palestinian teenager had been murdered in apparent revenge for her son, condemned it immediately. She broke into her own period of mourning to issue a statement: "There is no difference between blood and blood. Murder is murder. There is no justification and no atonement for murder."

In another occasion Rachel Fraenkel stated: "Even in the abyss of mourning for Gil-Ad, Eyal and Naftali, it is difficult for me to describe how distressed we are by the outrage committed in Jerusalem – the shedding of innocent blood in defiance of all morality, of the Torah, of the foundation of the lives of our boys and of all of us in this country. Only the murderers of our sons, along with those who sent them and those who helped them and incited them to murder – and not innocent people – will be brought to justice: by the army, the police, and the judiciary; not by vigilantes. No mother or father should ever have to go through what we are going through, and we share the pain of Mohammed's parents."


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seagull
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quote:
we can expect hate groups in Michigan and New York to send money to the killers' hateful families:
Pete, what makes you say that the killers' family are hateful themselves? The hateful leader of the murderers of Mohammed Abu Khadeir tried to kill his own baby daughter long before he committed this murder. I believe at least some of his family tried to have him committed for that at the time.

I am not suggesting that the family of the murderer deserves any special treatment or fund raising because of his actions and I lament the fact that hatred may be an effective way to raise funds for them.

However, I think that calling the innocent baby who was almost killed by her own father "hateful" goes a bit too far.

I think that the policy of promising funding to the families of suicide bombers is abominable. However, I do not think there is reason to hate the relatives of suicide bombers who do not express support for the suicide bomber's act.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
quote:
we can expect hate groups in Michigan and New York to send money to the killers' hateful families:
Pete, what makes you say that the killers' family are hateful themselves?
At least one of the families seems hateful, denouncing the government's apology to the victim's family. Perhaps I was hasty to generalize to the other two families, or perhaps you have information to correct the wikipedia article.

quote:
The hateful leader of the murderers of Mohammed Abu Khadeir tried to kill his own baby daughter long before he committed this murder. I believe at least some of his family tried to have him committed for that at the time.
Good for them.

[QUOTEI am not suggesting that the family of the murderer deserves any special treatment or fund raising because of his actions and I lament the fact that hatred may be an effective way to raise funds for them.[/QUOTE]

quote:
However, I think that calling the innocent baby who was almost killed by her own father "hateful" goes a bit too far.
Clearly I was not talking about her. If you can show me groups in Michigan and new York who are raising money to send to that innocent baby, I'll eat my shorts as well as retract.

quote:
I think that the policy of promising funding to the families of suicide bombers is abominable. However, I do not think there is reason to hate the relatives of suicide bombers who do not express support for the suicide bomber's act.
Agreed as to both points.

Have any of the families of the killers come forward to express sympathy for the family of Khadeir? I wouldn't expect such a gesture from a baby, but I'd expect it from a reasonable non-hateful adult under the circumstances.

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LetterRip
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Pete,

The Black Panthers were a wing of the civil rights movement - that is entirely proper usage. A group or faction holding distinct views or policies within a larger movement or organization as in left wing, or right wing. You might be thinking wing as in a unit of the air force. Designating something 'wing' does not imply any sort of command and control relationship.

Also leadership does not necessarily mean command and control authority, designated head of an organization; etc. The leader is the person that others follow or look up to.

quote:
It's misleading to describe the black panthers and Dr. King as part of one "organized movement.
An organized movement is simply a movement that has 'social movement organizations'.

quote:
For instance, the civil rights movement was a social movement composed of specific social movement organizations (like SNCC (Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee) or CORE (Congress of Racial Equality)).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_movement_organization
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seagull
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LetterRip,

I do not care too much about the semantic quibbling.

Are you trying to argue that the Al-Qassam brigades are not THE military wing of Hamas?

It does not seem that you are trying to argue the the black panthers were THE military wing of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) that Martin Luther King founded.

You already gave one good analogy with the Sein Fein and IRA. What is the point you are trying to make by adding weaker analogies and focusing on them?

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LetterRip
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seagull,

quote:
Are you trying to argue that the Al-Qassam brigades are not THE military wing of Hamas?
I'm saying that X is the militant wing of Y, does not mean that Y directs and controls the action of X. So saying that movement or group Y did something, but it was actually the actions of X is misleading.

Sein Finn and IRA were probably much more tightly coupled than Hamas and al Qassam Brigades, yet it is quite obvious that Sein Finn didn't have control over the IRA. In publications on militant/terrorist actions it was clear that it was the IRA and not Sein Finn who carried out the actions. In most publications on militant/terrorist actions against Israel - it is usually the actions of al Qassam Brigades that are being discussed, but almost all publications simply state Hamas.

The point of the weaker analogies was to demonstrate the wide variety of associations that a militant and political wing of a movement can have. They can vary from extremely tightly coupled, to almost no coupling.

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Greg Davidson
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I've been gone for a while, and may not be back for a while, but felt it appropriate to comment here. There are several pieces of evidence that indicate that some members associated with Hamas may have been involved. There was a confession by one of those who killed the three Israeli boys - seems compelling with the caveat that the confession may have been extracted by torture (and for purposes of this conversation I am not questioning the morality of torture, but merely the risk that it produces inaccurate information). Additionally, one faction within Hamas has recently claimed responsibility (unclear why they waited this long to make the claim - it could be because they suddenly decided to reveal the truth, or it could be because it's currently politically beneficial to make the claim). Both of these claims tell a consistent story in that members from one faction of Hamas were involved while members from another faction (the political leadership) were not to be informed or involved. And in particular, if the political faction of Hamas was not involved, that lessens the link even to the ~250,000 residents of Gaza who at one point voted for the political faction of Hamas.

I have raised from the start the underlying hypothesis that there are extremists among all sides who benefit from escalation of conflict. I still believe that this conflict was escalated unnecessarily, and that the acts of escalation will not serve American or Israeli long-term interests. The extremists on both sides have been empowered for another 5-10 years, and during that time the population west of the Jordan River is going to go from majority Jewish to minority Jewish.

That being said, I do agree with the recent attacks on the extremist leadership of Hamas (even with the associated civilian casualties). The chain of responsibility is much more clear in that case than for the previous escalation.

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seagull
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Greg,
Thank you for the clarification of your position. I agree with you that the possibility of torture can cast a doubt on the accuracy of a confession.

I also agree with your assesment that the Hamas leadership probably waited this long to reveal the truth because it's currently politically beneficial to do so.

It is consistent with their overall stated policy of not revealing any information about kidnap victims for months as a way to maximize the suffering of the victim's family (and the associated media coverage for which they take "credit").

One of the issues you did not address since this came to light is the reason that Netanyahu who blamed Hamas early on did not publish details about the ongoing investigation at the time. I believe the the reason he did not do was was obvious - telling the enemy what you know about their people and operations only helps them hide better and therefore makes it less likely that the kidnapped children (and now bodies of soldiers) can be recovered. It also makes it harder to catch the criminals and bring them to justice.

I note however, that you have yet to "correct yourself if you later discover that what you have discussed turns out to be false" when it comes to your statement that Netanyahu a lied about something that turned out to be true.

There is a moral responsibility for spreading falsehoods intentionally. If you did not do it intentionally and if you care about the truth, you should look into the reason it happened and try to learn how to avoid it in the future.

From my personal experience, three of the most common causes for unintentionally spreading a falsehood are:

1. Trusting an unreliable source (I learn not to trust it again).
2. An incorrect chain of reasoning (I learn to be more careful).
3. Spreading information that agrees with my preconceived notions because I am not as careful about checking something that I already beleive to be true.

Of these three, the hardest one to avoid is the third because the goal to "regularly question our assumptions" can easily take up all your time and leave you paralyzed.

This is the reason that I value the intelligent conversations on this forum. It helps me get access to information that I may not otherwise notice because of my own pre-conceived notions.

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seagull
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quote:
Sein Finn and IRA were probably much more tightly coupled than Hamas and al Qassam Brigades, yet it is quite obvious that Sein Finn didn't have control over the IRA.
I am not very familiar with how tight the coupling between Sein Finn and IRA was but I was under the impression that they were much more careful about maintaining the illusion of "plausible deniability" than Hamas and Al-Qassam are.

For example, the IRA did not openly call itself the military wing of Sein Fein and Sein Fein leaders made a point of not publicly supporting the terrorist activities of the IRA. By contrast, the Hamas political leadership tends to publicly justify and even glorify the actions of the Al-Qassam even as they claim that they are not the ones who gave the orders.

If you choose to believe these carefully engineered PR illusions (in the case of Hamas and Sein Fein), that may be the source of the misunderstanding between us.

It also explains why you bring up the black panthers as an example because in that case I agree with you that the distinction between the pacifist Martin Luther King and the militant Black Panthers was not an illusion.

My question to you then is, where do you draw the line? What would it take for you to say that a "plausible deniability" cover story purposely created to pull the wool over your eyes is an illusion?

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
I also agree with your assesment that the Hamas leadership probably waited this long to reveal the truth because it's currently politically beneficial to do so.
I'm still not quite there. While it is possible that some of the leadership of Hamas decided to wait to reveal the truth because it was politically beneficial, it is also possible that some members of Hamas leadership determined that it was politically beneficial to claim responsibility for an action that they didn't order because it was politically beneficial to do so.

And as for the veracity of Netanyahu's assertion, even taking the confessions at face value, we still only have a narrow group of people within Hamas that committed the murders without the orders, agreement or knowledge of the rest. This could be an intentional strategy to avoid direct accountability (didn't seem to work if it was), or it could be like every organization in the world there is disunity and different groups vying for influence. The broad-based retaliation against Hamas (and even more so against the Palestinian population in Gaza) was very likely the exact objective of those who committed the murders - it drew up dividing lines that maximized the domestic political benefit to the extremists.

[ August 24, 2014, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
Pete,

The Black Panthers were a wing of the civil rights movement - that is entirely proper usage. A group or faction holding distinct views or policies within a larger movement or organization as in left wing, or right wing. You might be thinking wing as in a unit of the air force. Designating something 'wing' does not imply any sort of command and control relationship.

Also leadership does not necessarily mean command and control authority, designated head of an organization; etc. The leader is the person that others follow or look up to.

In that sense of the word, even if Islamic Jihad rather than Qassam committed the atrocity, one might say that the murder of the Israeli teens occurred under Hamas leadership, AND that the torture-murder of the Palestinian teen I mentioned above occurred under Netanyahu's leadership, since both Hamas and Netanyahu made generalized cries for "revenge."
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