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seagull
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I never heard about Netanyahu's call for revenge until I saw this thread. When I saw it here I suspected there was something fishy about it because it does not sound like something Netanyahu would say.

Calls for personal vengeange have never been part of the mainstream Jewish culture. Quite to the contrary, there is a Hebrew expression "May God avenge their blood". The the initials for that expression can be found on the gravestones of many victims of violence directed against Jews for being Jews and is as familiar to Jewish people was the initials RIP are to Americans.

The meaning of the phrase "May God avenge their blood" is very clear. It is a verbal curse, a prayer, a call for karma to pay the killers back for what they did AND AT THE SAME TIME a powerful reminder that the Vengeance will and should come from God and not from individual people. There is an underlying sentiment associated with the phrase that those who do try to exact personal vengeance only perpetuate the cycle of violence and that God's vengeance will strike them as well.

So I went looking for the tweet in which Netanyahu supposedly made "generalized cries for revenge" and here is what I found:

quote:
the Prime Minister spoke again about the three before a security cabinet meeting, saying, “May God avenge their blood.”
This is NOT a generalized call for revenge. In fact it is quite the opposite.

[ August 25, 2014, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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Greg:
quote:
And as for the veracity of Netanyahu's assertion, even taking the confessions at face value, we still only have a narrow group of people within Hamas that committed the murders without the orders, agreement or knowledge of the rest. This could be an intentional strategy to avoid direct accountability (didn't seem to work if it was), or it could be like every organization in the world there is disunity and different groups vying for influence. The broad-based retaliation against Hamas (and even more so against the Palestinian population in Gaza) was very likely the exact objective of those who committed the murders - it drew up dividing lines that maximized the domestic political benefit to the extremists.
Greg, according to your own words you have a moral responsibility "to correct yourself if you later discover that what you have discussed turns out to be false".

You said that Netanyahu lied about this - your statement turns out to be false. You can speculate about different interpretations and split hairs about which parts of Hamas were responsible for the murders. You can disagree with how he chose to act in response to it. I may even agree with you on some of THOSE issues but that none of that will not make your earlier statement true.

In this specific case, it seems that Netanyahu did NOT lie and that you made false accusations against him.

Are you going to live up to your moral responsibility? Or are you going to try and wiggle out of it?

Your credibility is at stake here. If you do not live up to your moral responsibility, how can you expect anyone to believe you when Netanyahu (or someone else like him) actually does lie?

Do you really want to be the boy who cried Wolf?

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Pete at Home
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Thanks.for the specifics!

If you have time, i suggest you go to the wiki article i linked to, and correct the reference and put your soirce.

I agree that placing vengeance in God's hands is different than a gemeralized.call for revenge.
quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
I never heard about Netanyahu's call for revenge until I saw this thread. When I saw it here I Y there was something fishy about it because it does not sound like something Netanyahu would say.

Calls for personal vengeange have never been part of the mainstream Jewish culture. Quite to the contrary, there is a Hebrew expression "May God avenge their blood". The the initials for that expression can be found on the gravestones of many victims of violence directed against Jews for being Jews and is as familiar to Jewish people was the initials RIP are to Americans.

The meaning of the phrase "May God avenge their blood" is very clear. It is a verbal curse, a prayer, a call for karma to pay the killers back for what they did AND AT THE SAME TIME a powerful reminder that the Vengeance will and should come from God and not from individual people. There is an underlying sentiment associated with the phrase that those who do try to exact personal vengeance only perpetuate the cycle of violence and that God's vengeance will strike them as well.

So I went looking for the tweet in which Netanyahu supposedly made "generalized cries for revenge" and here is what I found:

quote:
the Prime Minister spoke again about the three before a security cabinet meeting, saying, “May God avenge their blood.”
This is NOT a generalized call for revenge. In fact it is quite the opposite.

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seagull
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Thanks, Pete
I added a sentence to the wiki article to explain the context of Netanyahu's tweets. I am not sure that adding a "source" or link for the expression "May God avenge their blood" would be meaningful in that context.

Adding a link to “may God avenge his blood” would have no more meaning than a link to "Rest in peace" is just adds clutter to the article.

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Pete at Home
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It's arguably a reference "vengeance is mine and i will.repay, sayeth the Lord" which we generally take.to mean an urge.for humans to not.seek.vengeance.
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Pete at Home
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It's arguably a reference "vengeance is mine and i will.repay, sayeth the Lord" which we generally take.to mean an urge.for humans to not.seek.vengeance.
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Greg Davidson
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Okay, here's a cut an paste of the postings I made about the level of responsibility of Hamas leadership for the killing of the three boys. Some of the key quotes are:
quote:
the murders were carried out by a group that was not under direct control of Hamas (and thus the murders likely were not ordered by Hamas, Hamas did not have the power to use "the media to order all cells to release them", and if Hamas did not have control of the murderers, then it is not outrageous that they were unable to negotiate)
There may be some misunderstanding of words here; as you can see below I did acknowledge that some people who were associated with Hamas may have been associated with the murders, but I was also clear that the evidence at the time indicated that any such involvement was due to an isolated or rogue group that was not operating under the direction of the political leadership of Hamas.

quote:
"the group thought to be responsible, a "lone cell," may not have been under direct orders from Hamas's leadership, but was loosely affiliated with the group".

Show me that my understanding of the facts are wrong, and I will change my views .

Even stipulating the confession and the assertions of some Hamas members, at most the claim is that a faction of Hamas was involved and Hamas political leadership was not involved. And that is relevant when part of the escalation was based on the inability of "Hamas" to negotiate fover the matter. If the political leadership of Hamas (ie; the part Israel is negotiating with) was not involved, it is not disingenuous for them to be unable to negotiate. Now you have raised the assertion that Hamas intentionally acts in a compartmentalized way to avoid accountability. That is a valid hypothesis, but it is just speculation. I have an alternate hypothesis, which is that all political movements are made up of factions who maneuver for power, and in the current crisis I find it most likely that extremists have choose to take aggressive actions because they benefit from the escalation of violence. I can't prove this hypothesis either, but I also have yet to see evidence that contradicts it - even these assertions of involvement of factions of Hamas are consistent with that analysis

My credibility matters to me - enough that I am taking the time to come back here and lay out the case. I did use the phrase Hamas a number of times when I meant to be referring to Hamas leadership, so perhaps that was unclear language, but if you look at my other posts, it is pretty clear the situation I was referring to.


==============================================
Quotes from the thread that I posted speaking to this matter

quote:
When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, Israeli officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all. (Update: The comments from the Israeli spokesperson in question indicate that the group thought to be responsible, a "lone cell," may not have been under direct orders from Hamas's leadership, but was loosely affiliated with the group. The headline of this post has been changed to reflect that discrepancy. See below for more.)

quote:
Greg: Add to that another piece of misinformation that was also used to intentionally escalate the crisis: the Netanyahu Administration knew early on that the 3 boys had been murdered, not kidnapped. But they used the story of an ongoing kidnapping as justification for an effort to arrest over 400 men affiliated with Hamas.

quote:
seagull: A. Hamas has several factions designed specifically to provide their "political" leadership with "plausible deniability".

B. Hamas cells are compartmentalized

quote:The smallest elements of terrorist organizations are the cells that serve as building blocks for the terrorist organization. One of the primary reasons for a cellular or compartmentalized structure is security. The compromise or loss of one cell should not compromise the identity, location, or actions of other cells. A cellular organizational structure makes it difficult for an adversary to penetrate the entire organization. Personnel within one cell are often unaware of the existence of other cells and, therefore, cannot divulge sensitive information to infiltrators.

C. Hamas cells receive their orders through the media

D. The Hamas political wing called for kidnappings in the media just before the three boys were kidnapped.

E. Hamas supporters were celebrating the kidnappings in the streets. Hamas leadership and media called Mahmoud Abbas a traitor for criticizing the kidnapping.

quote:
seagull, even stipulating your A-E listing of assertions about how this was all a Hamas plot, you still don't address some basic issues.

What was the goal of the kidnapping/killing of the 3 boys? It seems as if that action forced an escalation and empowered the extremists on both sides (even you note how Abbas got weakened by taking a position opposing the escalating move). So isn't that all consistent with the assertion that this war is what the kidnappers wanted? That there are elements on both sides that prefer conflict to peace. That the Palestinians are not one undifferentiated mass of Hamas-supporters. And that Israel has contributed to the achievement of the goals of the murderers of those boys by not in fact targeting those actually responsible, but instead attacking others, and killing well over a thousand people who did not commit the acts that were used as justification for the violence.

quote:
I could start to agree with you if you could address some of the information that I raised. For example, in the specific quote and citation I provided above - do you accept the following as true, or do you have contrary evidence?

quote: "The comments from the Israeli spokesperson in question indicate that the group thought to be responsible, a "lone cell," may not have been under direct orders from Hamas's leadership, but was loosely affiliated with the group.

Show me that my understanding of the facts are wrong, and I will change my views. But is sounds like even the Israeli position is consistent with what I have read, which is that the murders were carried out by a group that was not under direct control of Hamas (and thus the murders likely were not ordered by Hamas, Hamas did not have the power to use "the media to order all cells to release them", and if Hamas did not have control of the murderers, then it is not outrageous that they were unable to negotiate).

A major part of your position requires the group that murdered the three boys to be under the control of Hamas in Gaza. My best understanding is that even Israel now acknowledges that was not the case. Can you show me contrary information that outweighs the current preponderance of evidence? Or will you adjust your position in light of the evidence that undermines several of your central arguments?

quote:
With respect to the story about the West Bank murderers not be directly under control of Hamas leadership in Gaza, I draw my information from what I have read, which comes from several sources, not just Haaretz. For example, from June 30th:

quote: And for now there's still a chance that the kidnapping was the work of rogue Hamas cells, rather than a conspiracy ordered by the organization's top leadership.

"I don't think that we know enough to say anything conclusively as of yet," an Israeli Defense Forces source told Business Insider. "We do know that the two suspects and their support staff are Hamas operatives, Hamas activists and Hamas affiliates...

On his Facebook page, Netanyahu was clear in assigning responsibility. He wrote that the three were "murdered in cold blood by human animals," and he promised that "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay.

link

Seagull, since you have not yet adopted Seneca's proposal that all Hamas members should be arrested or killed, this implies that you are advocating for the military action against Gaza on the assumption that the behavior of the murderers of those three kids was the direct responsibility of Hamas leadership. How sure are you about that connection, and what is the basis of your convictions?



[ August 27, 2014, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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Pete at Home
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Greg, Seagal has already said that if Hummus were to be wiped out, it would be replaced by something worse.

If Seagull.is correct, and if Hamas leadership was responsible for the kids' death, then the logical best response would be to significantly harm Hamas, but not to crush it.

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Greg Davidson
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Pete, I am just stopping by to refute Seagull's assertions that I am not living up to my moral responsibility "to correct yourself if you later discover that what you have discussed turns out to be false".
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Pete at Home
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Thanks. My response was only to the question in the very last paragraph of your post
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seagull
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Greg,

You have clearly addressed and corrected several of the flaws in your earlier arguments. However, it still looks like you are trying to wiggle out of this one:

Greg:
quote:
Then Netanyahu (a) falsely claimed that the 3 boys were still held kidnapped, (b) falsely claimed that the kidnappings were performed at the direction of Hamas leadership in Gaza, and (c) combined these two flawed assertions as justification for Israelis arresting 400 Palestinians affiliated with Hamas. It was following the mass arrests that Palestinian extremists dramatically increased the rocket attacks.

All who contributed to the unnecessary escalation deserve culpability in proportion to their actions.

to which I responded in detail at the time stating that:

quote:
The distorted views presented by Greg is itself contributing to the escalation by encouraging Hamas to continue using human shields because as Greg is so effectively demonstrating - "IT WORKS".

At times like this, the only place for a moral person to be is to "stand with Israel". Even Arab nations like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia recognize that Hamas is the common enemy of all peace loving people in the Middle East (including first and foremost the Palestinians themselves).

Greg's unwitting contribution to the unnecessary escalation deserves "culpability in proportion to [his] actions".

The statements Greg marked as "(a) and (b)" do not reflect what Netanyahu actually said at the time. They were false statements invented by others and attributed to Netanyahu in order to discredit him.

These two statements were carefully phrased to create the misleading impression that Netanyahu contributed to unnecessary escalation and therefore "deserves culpability for the aftermath".

Combining the two flawed assertions as the so called justification for the IDF "arrest of 400 Palestinians affiliated with Hamas" is also flawed logic. Even if both statements had been true, Israel (and the PA too by the way) had very good reasons for performing those arrests that had nothing to do with Greg's preposterous Strawman "justification" and the underlying false assumptions he presented.

At the time that those arrests were made, the details behind the arrest of Hamas members who were planning to overthrow the PA and establish a terror state in the West Bank were still classified. Hamas is a common enemy of both Israel and the PA and warning your enemy in the middle of an ongoing operation would be foolish.

At that time most of us were not privileged to the information that has since been revealed.

But there was no TRUE evidence and no VALID logic to support the claims that Greg made in the quote above.

At times like this when even Arab states like Egypt and Saudi Arabia are siding with Israel against Hamas and ISIL, all people who love the truth have a moral responsibility to "stand by Israel".

Greg, I would like to believe that you were duped by anti - Netanyahu propaganda (which is rampant even in Israel and especially at Haaretz) and that the false statements you posted were not your own inventions.

However, your attempts to wiggle out of your personal responsibility for the false accusations posted here in your name are a serious blow to your credibility.

[ August 27, 2014, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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Greg:
quote:
A major part of your position requires the group that murdered the three boys to be under the control of Hamas in Gaza.
I am getting tired of these outrageous Strawman arguments. This statement has nothing to do with my position and everything to do with the position that Greg wants to argue against.

Greg,
You have your own brain.
You have your own eyes.
Try using them to see things for yourself.
If you want to argue with yourself, go ahead but leave me out of it.

It is not my job to show you things.

I do hope that you read the link I posted about what a Straw man argument is and actually understand what I am accusing you of. It would make the discussions on this forum much more productive.

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seagull
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Greg:
quote:
I am just stopping by to refute Seagull's assertions that I am not living up to my moral responsibility "to correct yourself if you later discover that what you have discussed turns out to be false
.
Greg
Please read my opening post before accusing me of making assertions that I did not actually make.

"Wondering if you lives by the Liberal Principles you espouse" and "asserting that you are not living up to your moral responsibility". are very different things.

You can refute a statement that I have not made but that is another Straw man. According to the Wikipedia link above using a straw man argument is a "logical fallacy".

I am very curious to see if your principle applies to logical consistency only or if it also applies to logical fallacies.

BTW, if your credibility really matters to you, you might want to respond to my 2014-08-27 17:07 post on this thread: Gaza Blockade Question

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LetterRip
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Seagull,

quote:
The statements Greg marked as "(a) and (b)" do not reflect what Netanyahu actually said at the time. They were false statements invented by others and attributed to Netanyahu in order to discredit him.
both the telegraph and business insider quote

quote:
Mr Netanyahu told ministers: "Hamas is responsible and Hamas will pay."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11048705/Hamas-kidnapped-three-teenagers-leading-figure-says.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6


Or how about the Jerusalem Post?

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Netanyahu-Hamas-will-pay-for-the-murders-the-three-youths-361070

So what is your source that it is a smear or misattribution?

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Pete at Home
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Am no fan of netty but Saying Hamas will pay =/= calling generally for revenge.

[ August 27, 2014, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Am no fan of netty but Saying Hamas will pay =/= calling generally for revenge.

Exactly.
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Pete at Home
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LR, If Newt Gingrich announce that Barack Obama would pay for the Kennedy assassination, You might reasonably say that newt is being dishonest or insane, But you could not reasonably blame Newt for.say, the Trayvor Martin death. Seagull said that the Palestinian torture murder by the three settler b'nai Moloch could not reasonably be attributed to what Netanyahu said. I tend to agree.
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Greg Davidson
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seagull,

You are saying that I was wrong when I claimed that "A major part of your position requires the group that murdered the three boys to be under the control of Hamas in Gaza" - and you characterize my error as a straw man argument. I would characterize this differently - it is important to my view of justice whether the murderers were under the control of those who are being held accountable (Hamas political leadership in Gaza, and in a different way, the civilian population of Gaza in terms of a fraction of the 2,000 killed and the estimated 100,000 left homeless). You can argue that my view of justice is wrong, or you can assert you believe that they were under orders but there are lying about that to maintain deniability, or you can clarify that from your perspective you don't care if the murderers were under the orders of Hamas leadership or not. If it is the last of these three examples, then I am wrong in saying that linkage is important to your argument. But if that's the case, I disagree with your argument.

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Greg Davidson
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I am going to take a break from Ornery for a while. Not in reaction to this thread, I just have some other activities going on, and have just been touching base here because I did not want to leave midstream.

seagull, I appreciate your passion, I think I understand the structure of your argument and I appreciate that it is clearly done in good faith, and at least from my perspective I just believe that we view things differently. I am certainly hoping that events improve in Israel.

While I am gone, you all make sure that you don't resolve all of your differences and leave nothing left to discuss...

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seagull
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I am not a fan of Netanyahu either. Still in the last 50 days, I believe he made many good moves, took the right positions and recieved much unfair criticism.

LR, take a look at the difference between the actual quote "Hamas is responsible, Hamas will pay" and Greg's statement that he "falsely claimed that the kidnappings were performed at the direction of Hamas leadership in Gaza".

Netanyahu was not stupid enough to claim "direction of Hamas leadership in Gaza" about the murder of the three boys, that was a Straw man.

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