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Pete at Home
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http://m.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28948946

Take a look at the uzi in the picture ... why would anyone place that in the hands of a 9-year-old girl?

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NobleHunter
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I really hope it was accidentally set to auto. I mean, I don't think single-shots out of an uzi would be any worse than a similar calibre of pistol. Though I'll side-eye the idea of giving a 9-year-old a pistol.

But if it was deliberately set to auto by the instructor... I don't what to say natural consequences, but at least the girl didn't get hurt.

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Pete at Home
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Not sure why he'd give her an uzi rather than a pistol if she was going to only test it on single shot.

Testing a pistol while.under professional supervision might be ok. But an uzi ... kind of like letting a 9 year old test drive a car on the Autobahn.

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scifibum
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Poor girl.
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Pete at Home
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Hard to imagine what she's going through.
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Seneca
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The initial reports I saw said the instructor had set it to semi - automatic but the recent reports say it was on fully automatic. Either way that's too much gun for a 9 year old girl. She'd have been better off with a single shot bolt action 22 with a suppressor and subsonic ammo.
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seagull
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The IDF does not use Uzis because they are considered too unsafe because they are too likely to misfire.

The big selling point of the Uzi which explains it's popularity worldwide is that it hardly ever jams. This design advantage (for certain circumstances) comes with a natural tradeoff. The Uzi is hair triggered to the point that it sometimes fires even without pressing the trigger and that dropping it at the right angle can cause it to fire.

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AI Wessex
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Does anyone agree that the whole concept of this shooting range to put guns in the hands of children is completely nuts? One incredulous person commented on the page linked to at the top of this thread that 9-year olds have more important things to focus on than shooting semi-automatic weapons, like education. Well, duh!

Something like 7 children are shot and killed in the US every week, many by other children. How does it make sense to put more guns in the hands of more children?

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Pete at Home
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I never realized and that education was a semi-automatic weapon.

Careful with those long dangly sentences while you're on a headspin chief

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Pete at Home
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If you have guns and.kids in the house, a trip to the firing range is more likely to keep them alive, lest curiosity kill the cat.
Seneca's right that a single-action rifle would have been more appropriate for a 9 year old

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Careful with those long dangly sentences while you're on a headspin chief
Keep an eye on your grammer friend as my headspin chief isn't always as attentive as, it might be.
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scifibum
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As long as we live in a society where my kids might encounter guns, I'm glad gun ranges where they can safely learn about gun safety exist. I don't mind them learning to handle and fire .22 rifles or pistols. But handing a little kid a fully automatic weapon is stupid.
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LetterRip
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I'd start with a BB gun or airsoft gun, and once they show adequate respect and proper handling, then try a 22 rifle or pistol.
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AI Wessex
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There's a curious sense of disproportion that the training instructor is well-qualified in the handling and teaching of a semi-automatic weapon, but yet is putting it in the hands of someone woefully unprepared to accept that level of responsibility. Just plain a bad, bad idea.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
There's
a curious sense
of disproportion
that the training instructor
is well-qualified
in the handling and teaching
of a semi-automatic weapon, but yet
is putting it
in the hands
of someone woefully unprepared
to accept
that level
of responsibility. Just plain a bad, bad idea.

1. Circle the prepositions (of,in,about,for,onto, into) 2. Draw a boxaround the "is" verb forms 3. Ask,"Where's the action?" 4. Change the "action" into a simple verb 5. Move the doer into the subject (Who's kicking whom) 6. Eliminate any unnecessary slow wind-ups 7. Eliminate any redundancies.

See richard landham paramedic method.

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AI Wessex
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I have a 267 page book about prepositions ("The Semantics of English Prepositions; Spatial Scenes, Embodied Meaning and Cognition"), but I definitely appreciate you turning my words into poetry. If you know the comedian Steven Wright, he observed that he once read the entire dictionary and realized when he was done that it was a poem about everything. I have now the curious sense that my poor effort disproportionately pales in comparison. For instance, my repetition of "bad" was bad.
quote:
richard landham paramedic method
Whom? Oh, whim. If I were to want what he wots, would that I would as he.
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Pete at Home
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That's not.poetry, it's a landham-style autopsy of wordiness. I dont question your ability to.recognize a preposition. Just oointing out that you overuse them, resulting in a painful and confusing read.

[ August 29, 2014, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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AI Wessex
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ok.
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scifibum
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This seems like it calls for some sensible regulation. Minimum age to handle or fire certain classes of projectile weapons.
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Pete at Home
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The regulation already exists. There are general laws against reckless endangerment of a child in every state. Under such laws, handing a 9 year old a loaded uzi would already be illegal.
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AI Wessex
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Except that nobody close to this is suggesting a crime occurred. The gun range followed safety procedures.
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Pete at Home
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Are you saying that it must have been legal, since no one arrested the dead instructor?
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AI Wessex
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No, you're saying that "handing a 9 year old a loaded uzi would already be illegal", but I don't think it is.
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Pete at Home
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Please identify your point of disageement:
1You dont think that there's a law against reckless.sndangerment of a.child?
2. You dont think that handing a loaded uzi to.a.child.is reckless?
3. You dont think that handing an uzi to a 9bar year old endangers.a.child?
4. You cant wrap your head around the proposition that if a=b and b=c, then a=c?

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LetterRip
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Pete,

point 2 - it might not be lawfully reckless. While I might personally think it reckless, if done under the auspices of a trained instructor it might not be lawfully reckless.

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Pete at Home
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Agreed.that it wasnt reckless as.to the parents, bc of the instructor. I am saying reckless as to the instructor.
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Pete at Home
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I had a client who got reckess endangerment for giving a 14 year old a xanax pill. (Original charge was poisoning and 3 other felonies)
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AI Wessex
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Pete, I just quoted your statement that letting the 9-year old handle the Uzi *is* illegal. I'd like some legal justification, not a roundabout explanation for why it somehow must be.
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Pete at Home
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How was my response above not a.clear explanation of why it was illegal to.give a 9 yr old an uzi?

If an act is.(1) reckless and (2) endangers a.child, then it's a crime called RECKLESS ENDANGEEMENT OF A.CHILD in.most.jurisdictions this is either a gross.misdemeanor or.a lesser felony. Generally looking at 6-18 months in jail. As a general rule, dead.people dont get.charged.with crimes.

Not sure what part was not.clear.

[ August 30, 2014, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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Here's a broader description:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangerment

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AI Wessex
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quote:
The website of the shooting range, called Bullets and Burgers, says children aged eight and older can shoot a weapon if they are accompanied by a parent and an instructor.

Range operator Sam Scarmardo told the Associated Press news agency the rule was industry standard but the range is reviewing its safety procedures.

I don't know if there is a formal industry standard or if the range instead adheres to an informal one that other ranges follow. It's a stupid policy that was bound to cause a serious problem sooner or later, but if they follow some sort of accepted "industry standard" then I still don't get how the instructor or shooting range engaged in "RECKLESS ENDANGEEMENT OF A.CHILD" unless the instructor willfully let the child do something that isn't apparent in the video.
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Pete at Home
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"The website of the shooting range, called Bullets and Burgers, says children aged eight and older can shoot a weapon if they are accompanied by a parent and an instructor."

No reckless endangerment there if the "weapon" is a single shot or semiautomatic rifle or a pistol. I doubt that it applies to a bazooka, a nuke, or an automatic pistol like an uzi.

As a general rule, dead people dont get charged with crimes.

"the range is reviewing its safety procedures."

Probably should review its weapon selection.

I don't believe that a fully automatic pistol like an uzi or a p90 should even be privately owned.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
I don't believe that a fully automatic pistol like an uzi or a p90 should even be privately owned.
I'm not disagreeing with the intent of that statement, but let me be clear about what I *am* asking. You have said explicitly that what they did is illegal. You gave the crime a name. I'm asking you (again) to show the law they violated. So far you are letting your justifiable outrage stand in for the basis of a criminal complaint.
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Pete at Home
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I gave you a name to the crime.
I gave you the list of legal elements to the crime
I gave you in question form and analysis of how the facts fit the elements.
I gave you the link to Wikipedia article that describes im ward generalized category into which the crime fits.

I don't understand what you are asking for.

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AI Wessex
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OK, then you think this gun range did commit a crime, and has been committing the crime for some period of time. The local authority has declined to press charges against the gun range owners, because they don't think a crime took place. I am also not finding any agreement with you on that anywhere on the web, only regret that it happened and criticism of the instructor that it was unwise of him to let her to shoot an Uzi.

I also don't think it was a crime, because of the stupidity of gun laws in general and the blindness of people who think everybody should be encouraged to play with guns.

There is a subculture of "proper violence" that wants everybody to be armed and dangerous and ready to shoot anytime, anywhere they feel the need.

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Pete at Home
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" OK, then you think this gun range did commit a crime, and has been committing the crime for some period of time."

No. I think the instructor comitted.a.crime. the gun range rule doesnt require an instructor.to.let a.child shoot an.uzi.

Do you have evidence that the gun range has previously put loaded uzis in children's hands? There's not enough information here to say whether the gun range committed a crime. There is evidence to say that the gun instructor committed a crime.

The gun range might reasonably argue that it left the type of weapon that a child could use up to the instructor's professional discretion. That's a reasonable position. No recklessness.

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Pete at Home
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The gun range may be.liable for.negligence. wait and.see.
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Pete at Home
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" criticism of the instructor that it was unwise of him to let her to shoot an Uzi."

That's my argument. That it was reckless, ergo illegal, for the instructor to let her shoot the uzi.
CNN'S firearms legal.analyst agrees.with.me, saying that the instructor's decision was "extremely reckless."

To my knowledge, reckless.endangerment of.a.child.is.criminal in every state.

If CNN is too conservative for you, how about frakking Daily Kos? "The key term" according to Daily Kos, is RECKLESS.ENDANGERMENT.

[ August 31, 2014, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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Just google.the phrase "reckless endangerment" AND uzi.
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AI Wessex
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I did and the only relevant case on the first page involved the death of a 8-year old boy in 2008. The Pelham MA Police Chief Edward B. Fleury was indicted and tried and found not guilty in 2011. The charges against two other men were dropped after his verdict was announced.
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