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Author Topic: "Feminists" angry at 4 boys who empower women against rape
Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Do you grasp.the difference.between saying "it's to your advantage to say no clearly and.emphatically," versus saying it's your responsibility?
Sure. But our culture still teaches that "no" might just be someone being coy, and a lack of no can be read as approval. Which is why many men who have raped someone don't even realize they've raped someone and only report that they have when asked about their behavoir without the word rape attached.
I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the % of men "who have raped someone don't even realize they've raped someone and only report that they have when asked about their behavoir without the word rape attached" is lower among native-born Norwegians, higher among Indians, and that the USA is somewhere in between the two. Because there's a strong anti-rape culture in Norway, a moderate anti-rape culture in the USA, and a struggle between a nascent anti-rape culture and an aggressively strong pro-rape culture in India.

[ August 28, 2014, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
What I find particularly hateful is when self-proclaimed "hate culture" opponents actively enable rape culture, by creating an expectation that masculinity equals rape, that rape is expected of all males.
In other words, by harping on an irrelevant strawman that no one you're talking to disagrees with.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
What i get from the articles that pyr and I cited is that even if it does dramatically reduce the use of the date rape drug,
There's no "Even if". It won't significantly affect the usage. The targeting and which ones are the most popular, perhaps, but since it doesn't change the mindset that employs them in the first place, it won't really have much of practical effect on the whole.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
What I find particularly hateful is when self-proclaimed "hate culture" opponents actively enable rape culture, by creating an expectation that masculinity equals rape, that rape is expected of all males.
In other words, by harping on an irrelevant strawman that no one you're talking to disagrees with.
You defend and enable sources that always without variation speak of rapists as "he," victims as "she," and say that the entire rape problem can be solved by teaching MALES not to rape. You and yours are part of the problem. At some level you understand this, since you acknowledge on the Missouri police thread that people's actions can be affected by the expectations that we place on them. Focusing on men for "no rape" indoctrination creates and presumes an expectation that rape is a male thing to do. That's not a straw man. It's the flaw in your explicit plan.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I know that strippers are often expected to drink with clients (which Pyr will hopefully agree with me is a problem in itself), and that among them alone, roofie-detecting nails would prevent hundreds of rapes per year.
That's making the assumption that people will go on blithely using detectable drugs once usage of the nail polish spreads instead of switching to ones that don't trigger it or figuring out a way to neutralize it.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
You defend and enable sources that always without variation speak of rapists as "he," victims as "she," and say that the entire rape problem can be solved by teaching MALES not to rape.


Because, statistically that is the case. If you stopped all rapes by men, you've reduced their prevalence by 95% and incidentally inculcated general cultural values that will effectively work to prevent the balance.
quote:
Focusing on men for "no rape" indoctrination creates and presumes an expectation that rape is a male thing to do. That's not a straw man. It's the flaw in your explicit plan.
No, that comes from constantly telling women that they have to fear men because they're potential rapists does, as happens with all of the defensive messaging. Telling people that it's personal responsibility to not commit rape is just the opposite- it raises the bar and expectations on every person to meet it. And, given the overall nature of our society, the fact that male behavior is considered the default for normal, putting that expectation on men means it implicitly applies to women who want to be part of the norm as well.

That's where your assertions really break down- the accusations about taking action to prevent people from committing rape actually apply more accurately to what's communicated by teaching people that rape is going to happen and they have to defend against it.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
What i get from the articles that pyr and I cited is that even if it does dramatically reduce the use of the date rape drug,
There's no "Even if". It won't significantly affect the usage.
You've never made that argument before, and given the one you offer here, I can see why even you sat on this one:

quote:
The targeting and which ones are the most popular, perhaps, but since it doesn't change the mindset that employs them in the first place, it won't really have much of practical effect on the whole.
Since you specified USAGE (of date rape drugs), that's a really crappy argument. Women get dressed up to go to bars, or to work in strip clubs, and those are the environments where date rape drugs are most often used. If a perp can't use the drugs there, the opportunity is lost. If the mindset is "drug someone to rape, rob, or roll them, if you can get away with it," then if you reduce the scope where they can get away with it, then you reduce the druggings.

Again
1. Psychopaths act on a compulsion. They can postpone acting for a time, but eventually will act, and the only way to stop them is catching them and holding or killing them. Socialization wont stop them from attempts, but teaching people might help them detect and catch them, or to avoid their attempts.

2. Sociopaths act on desire, but can restrain themselves indefinitely if they don't see an opportunity.

3. A variable number of people, depending on the culture, rape or commit other atrocities, because (a) they think they can get away with it, or because (b) they think they can justify it.

3bs are the ones who are most affected by eliminating their rape culture.

3as are the ones most affected by instilling in them a strong anti-rape culture.

Any arguments against this breakdown?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
I know that strippers are often expected to drink with clients (which Pyr will hopefully agree with me is a problem in itself), and that among them alone, roofie-detecting nails would prevent hundreds of rapes per year.
That's making the assumption that people will go on blithely using detectable drugs once usage of the nail polish spreads instead of switching to ones that don't trigger it or figuring out a way to neutralize it.
No. It's assuming that some folks will get the nail polish before the general roofie-using population catches on. It's a reasonable assumption. I'm not talking about dramatic number of trials, just a few. But those public trials will bring issues of consent to public full media discussion, which will do more for the public education cause than a whole lot of fringe jaw-flapping.

Hey, time will tell if I'm right. I'll only caveat that if the nail polish doesn't work, obviously there won't be a few big trials.

Reason demands that some equilibrium will occur. If NO one gets caught, then eventually women won't buy the nail polish. Then people will start using roofies again. If the gadget works, it's inevitable that someone's going to get caught. And that's a good thing for public awareness.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
You defend and enable sources that always without variation speak of rapists as "he," victims as "she," and say that the entire rape problem can be solved by teaching MALES not to rape.


Because, statistically that is the case.

No. It's never happened so it can't "statistically" be measured. Males have never been successfully "taught" not to rape, so it's crap to say that doing so would stop all rapes. Furthermore it's nonsense, because your 95% only accounts for reported rapes, rapes by females are less reported, and finally, 95% of rapes isn't "all" rapes.

Additionally, since women are generally weaker than men, they are more likely to use methods that don't rely on brute strength, such as blackmail, nonphysical coercion, and drugging. That's part of the reason that female agressor sexual abuse is underreported. I certainly never reported my own.

quote:
If you stopped all rapes by men, you've reduced their prevalence by 95%
Horse crap. You've only stopped 95% of REPORTED rapes.

quote:
and incidentally inculcated general cultural values that will effectively work to prevent the balance.

Wrong again, because the way you've worded your movement puts rape by female aggressors and rape of male victims under erasure. You can't fight a problem that you refuse to acknowledge. If you put rape by female perps and of male vics under erasure, you're part of rape culture, as surely as the folks that allowed marital rape were part of the problem.


quote:
Focusing on men for "no rape" indoctrination creates and presumes an expectation that rape is a male thing to do. That's not a straw man. It's the flaw in your explicit plan.
-----
No, that comes from constantly telling women that they have to fear men because they're potential rapists does,

Yes.

quote:
as happens with all of the defensive messaging.
That's where you're full of crap again. Good defensive messaging occurs in the popular TV show Veronica mars, which shows a female perp using the date rape drug to disable a girl she doesn't like. Lack of penis doesn't mean you can trust some jerk that hands you a drink. And I've been saying the same thing.

quote:
Telling people that it's personal responsibility to not commit rape is just the opposite- it raises the bar and expectations on every person to meet it.
I have no problem with your raising the expectations ON people to meet the don't rape criterion. What's stupid and negligent to the point of sadism is when you raise the expectations that other people won't rape, just because you've told them not to.

quote:
And, given the overall nature of our society, the fact that male behavior is considered the default for normal, putting that expectation on men means it implicitly applies to women who want to be part of the norm as well.
Bull crap. Do you really want me to believe that when FEMINISTS speak about "MEN" that they are talking about women also? [LOL] I don't even believe that you believe that. I taught English, Pyr. I taught all that stuff against male-norming. I accept and applaud all that part of the feminist agenda ... to that extent I AM a feminist, although OPS seems to be the only Ornerian that grasps that fact. No! I reject with contempt and dismay, your claim that the feminist community is using masculine terms as a norm for women to follow. What you say is anathema to an aspect of feminism which I respect and adhere to.


quote:
rape is going to happen and they have to defend against it.
Straw man. (that's not male norming; I just haven't yet seen a scarecrow with boobs). I said that some rape attempts will always happen, and it's to our advantage to defend ourselves and others against them.
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LetterRip
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quote:
Rapes are often chalked up to the belief that the perpetrators can't help themselves, or that the victims caused it to happen.
The majority of rapists are psychopaths, schizophrenics, or the severely mentally disabled. For psychopaths - their decisions are based on what they think they can get away with, they are probably fully aware of what legally constitutes rape, etc. For schizophrenics - my understanding is that they commit rapes while psychotic . For the severely mentally disabled - they might not have the mental capacity to comprehend all of the things that are rape.

Those account for the majority of what everyone agrees are rapes.

Education of the perpetrators would likely be useless in those cases. Thus only knowledge and preparation by the potential victims and their friends can prevent these incidences.

The rapes by individuals that don't fit those categories are things like statutory rape - where neither the victim nor perpetrator necessarily view the actions as rape and the law varies dramatically by location - where some states it would be statutory rape and in others perfectly lawful ( http://age-of-consent.findthebest.com/ ). Rapes that occur where both the victim and the perpetrator were substance abusing. These might be amenable to education.

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scifibum
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Source for the info on who constitute the majority of rapists, LR?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Bullcrap. If 25% of men are committing sexual abuse in one society, and less than 1% is doing it in another society, then it stands to reason that the BEST APPROACH FOR QUICKLY AND.DRAMATICALLY REDUCING RAPE would require a different approach in one society than the other. Your one.size fits all approach, same in India.as in the USA, is.procrustean viciousness.

What on-size fits all policy? I'm talking about what to to in the US and other western cultures.
Precisely. Despite the fact that rape stats vary wildly between different western culture groups. You buy the Leftwash that there's a single "western culture" as to rape. Sure, Pyr. Swedes and Norwegians see rape exactly like Greeks, Italians, and Albanians. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
You're the one that keeps trying to juxtapose non-western cultures as if they were relevant to what to do in the US.
I brought in India and Pakistan because they illustrate starkly how there are different problems that create rape culture. Enmity rape culture is different from "she wants it" rape culture. Enmity rape occurs in the US within facebook circles, and in the prisons. It requires a different tool-set to address.

My point is that like robbery or any crime, when you want to reduce rape victimization, you should look at where it's occurring in the locale, look at the perps, etc., and construct the solution that best fights the local problem.

Ever hear of "think globally, act locally?"

In some school districts, the fight against rape might be part of a wider war on bullying, attacking facebook usage, or even use software to monitor kids fb accounts.

In other areas, the focus of an anti-rape campaign might be linked to an anti-alcohol and/or anti-drug campaign.

In another area, the problem might involve messaging between kids and adults,

Another area might actively involve human trafficking. People might be having sex with prostitutes without realizing that the prostitutes were not able to consent, i.e. were being manipulated by drugs or violence or threats against their families.

There might be areas where date rape drugs make up a much larger proportion of rapes, and other crimes as well.

Talking as if any one solution misses "the point" as if there was only one point, or only one problem, is idiocy, and part of the problem.

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Pete at Home
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Thanks, LR!

"Those account for the majority of what everyone agrees are rapes."

On the whole, Pyr and I agree mostly as to what is rape. In previous threads, we differed only as to two points:

Pyr says dogmatically that if you cannot consent at the moment, that anyone who has sex with you is raping you. I say that I can tell my wife, "I'm not up to it now; feel free to jump my bones in a couple of hours while I'm asleep." There's very little in this world I've ever enjoyed more than waking up in the middle of a sex act. OTOH, I can't imagine much more horrifying than waking up in the middle of a sex act with someone that I really did not want to have sex with, so I can appreciate Pyr's position on this, but I respectfully disagree: I think that consent can be given beforehand.

Point of disagreement #2: Pyr thinks that sex with someone that doesn't want sex, is rape, regardless of the intent of the putative perp. In other words, if X says she wants to make love to her, but she secretly doesn't want to (e.g. she is being threatened by a third party that I don't know about) then I am a rapist if I consent. A more practical example: my ex and I used to often start having sex in the middle of the night while we were both asleep. By Pyr's standards, we were both raping each other. I think that's nonsensical. You can't rape without intent. Pyr objects that my construct leaves a grey area in which some miniscule number of sex acts might be neither consensual nor rape. I'm OK with that. Pyr is not.

[ August 28, 2014, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Source for the info on who constitute the majority of rapists, LR?

Ditto. But if I read LR correctly, he means the majority of rapists with regard to "what everyone agrees are rapes." That might rule out date-rapes, drug-rapes, and other rapes that not everyone agrees are rape. Unless LR meant what the law agrees are rape.

|{{([{::what everyone agrees is rape:: what most of the culture agrees is rape} what the law defines as rape]what Pete thinks is rape)what Pyr thinks is rape}} what truly rabid extreme feminists think is rape, e.g. a man having sex with a wife who secretly only stays for the money|

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OpsanusTau
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Some things, in no particular order:

I really, really love that this is a three page argument between (unless I skimmed over someone, in which case sorry) a bunch of men about the most effective way to prevent rape. Because - most (not all, but most) sexual assaults are committed by men, and evidence-based most effective way to decrease sexual assault committed by men is through men talking to men about how much sexual assault sucks. You guys are doing the good work!

Have I linked this study before? Or something similar? There is a lot of data available. Some really useful studies published in the Journal of Violence Against Women, eg.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
So its main present effect might be to affirm that rape is never excused by the victim's behavior. Which is probably beneficial, IMO.
I have no problem with "rape culture" opponents using safety gismo publicity as a platform to talk about aspects of the rape problem that the gismo does not address. But suggesting that the inventors are misguided or part of the problem, is abusive and deserves to be held up to mockery.


Well, there isn't just "the problem". There are various related problems, such as the problem of reflexive victim-blaming. I think it's plausible that a focus on defensive measures can make those other problems worse.

I'm with you that our society's response to these problems can't be reduced to a single solution or approach. (I'm not commenting on what other societies should do because I don't know much about them.)

quote:
quote:
Pete, I don't have any links for you, but I have read accounts from rape victims whose advocacy resembles Valenti's. I don't know if anyone in this category who was specifically victimized by GHB or Rohypnol has responded to the nail polish idea.
I'd love to hear them. I had a woman try to roofie me in a bar (according to the female bartender when I came back from the bathroom), though I think her intent was to get me to a hotel, kill and rob me. I wasn't planning on going to the hotel with her anyway, and she started screaming at me when I walked out without finishing the drink. I've talked to several roofie victims, clients and prospective clients, and suspect that they'd have a different perspective on the nail polish thing. I know that strippers are often expected to drink with clients (which Pyr will hopefully agree with me is a problem in itself), and that among them alone, roofie-detecting nails would prevent hundreds of rapes per year.

I'm persuaded that defenses against roofies are a good thing in situations where roofies are a significant risk, and that reducing the particular harm of putting unknown drugs into other people without their consent is a good unto itself. (Although other measures/precautions/strategies should never be ruled out simply because this tool exists, of course.)

quote:
quote:
If I go kind of far out on a limb that I can't presently back up with anything solid: I think we as a culture are still struggling to fully and honestly account for who rapists are and why they are raping people.
I agree and well said. That's why I get very angry with people that insist that there's only one approach to deal with rape, and that anyone who approaches the problem from a different perspective has "MISSED THE POINT." As if there were only one point. Like the indigo girls say, there's more than one answer to these questions ...

quote:
There is plenty of evidence to think that many rapes are committed by people who don't think they are rapists, who haven't actually stopped to consider their own actions in an unselfish way.
I agree. Do you have any rebuttal to my argument that the higher the percentage of people in a given culture are predators, the higher of a proportion of predators might fit the profile that you just described?

What I'm saying is that:

1. the % of psychopaths in a society is more or less stable, regardless of culture.
2. the number of sociopaths might perhaps be reduced in the long run by increasing economic stability and well-being, but it's not going to just change with a bit of instruction.
3. Folks that fit the profile you describe, that (a) commit rapes they don't recognize as wrong (e.g. raping a lower caste woman in India to retaliate for something her family did) or
(b) commit rapes that they don't recognize as actual rape, e.g. "she was drunk and didn't say no." THESE ones can probably be reduced dramatically by instruction, if that instruction is intelligently given.

Do you disagree with my breakdown, SciFi? Comments, Aris?

I don't disagree that your 3rd category is the one that can be addressed with education and social pressure, and your other two points seem right to me.

I think what many feminists believe and are trying to solve is that your 3rd category is extremely common, under-reported, and largely under the radar of law enforcement, law makers, and other groups. I tend to find this credible given my own understanding of human nature and how shame can twist up the picture for both perpetrators and victims. However, the same factors make it very difficult to measure.


quote:
quote:
When I think about "rape culture" I think it includes the disturbing problem that rapes are committed by people who consider themselves decent people, and are considered decent people by others, even when they know what happened. Rapes are often chalked up to the belief that the perpetrators can't help themselves, or that the victims caused it to happen.
Well-said and agreed generally. Where I differ is this: I don't think that it all can be chalked up to rape culture. Indeed, much could be chalked up to rape culture, but I think that some of what you describe could be chalked up to a lack of sufficiently potent ANTI-RAPE culture. It's not enough to teach that rape cannot be justified. We need to actively inculturate that it's abhorrent. That it's morally closer to murder than to mere theft.
I'm not sure. I think some of the resistance to confronting the problem comes from this sense that rape IS terrible, so we better exclude these acts/situations/mistakes that could happen to anybody. I'm not sure that twisting the knob on how horrifying it is is the right approach to confronting such problems more honestly and completely. I like the approach of insisting on bright line consent rules (although I believe that I agree with you that this is too simplistic for committed relationships where standing consent can be a legitimate thing, and we need something other than "rape" to describe true edge cases where consent appears to be genuine but isn't for reasons outside of the participants' control). We should attach pride and moral status to a commitment to avoid gray areas...by being careful never to assume too much or let our desires overwhelm our respect for other people's sovereign borders.

quote:
quote:

I see the efforts to focus attention on those in this category and wake them up - get them to see things in a different light - as justified and valuable. I also see the efforts to shut down avenues of victim blaming as justified and valuable.

I do too. But while both efforts are valuable, both efforts could be done in a misguided and harmful way. If we teach self-defense in a way that actively put the moral blame on the victim, that's BAD. And if we pretend that self-defense is in itself an avenue of victim blaming, that too is bad.
Self defense techniques aren't co-extensive with victim blaming, but we agree that certain extremes of self defense are too onerous: never go anywhere without a male guard, wear iron underpants, etc., right? And that pushing those extremes - while it can be done without actually blaming victims - puts the onus on potential victims in a way that is problematic? It's a question of how to balance this against other measures (/conversations/responses/foci).

I actually think the backlash against this kind of advice stems from trying to apply it after the fact, when it is much harder to distinguish it from victim blaming.

quote:


What I find particularly hateful is when self-proclaimed "hate culture" opponents actively enable rape culture, by creating an expectation that masculinity equals rape, that rape is expected of all males. I've tried to communicate this to Pyr, but he keeps cowering behind that 95% number as if it meant something.


Maybe I miss out on the circles where this happens (or maybe it used to be more common?) but I've seen far more railing against this meme than I've seen of the meme itself. I don't know...I used to feel it more than I do now, this feeling of "Hey, I'm not like that problem with men you're describing!" Sometimes I suspect it's a reaction to something that wasn't said, that "not all men" is used as a response to claims that didn't include "all men" in the first place. You know?

quote:
quote:
Pete, if you don't take it as a given that this product will reduce rapes, does it help you view the backlash more sympathetically?
No. Roofying is a substantial evil in and of itself. I suspect that the product will substantially reduce rape, if it works as suggested. But even if it doesn't, simply reducing roofying will save lives and prevent a number of other crimes. Even when date rape drugs don't result in actual rape, they cause other damage, including death. Like I said, someone tried to poison me with one to rob me. Strippers poison each other to get a bigger share of tips.
As I mentioned above I think that's a valid point. I wonder if it would help - on all sides - to market the invention as an anti-roofy measure, not as a measure to empower women or defeat rapists.
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Sure, but they make up a statistically insignificant part of the population once you change the cultural factors that push people toward those kinds of attitudes and allow them to propagate.
So until that happy time in the far future where the 'cultural factors' have changed, are we allowed to advise each other about the ways to best protect ourselves? If I advise someone to put a lock on their bike (rather than be teaching potential thieves not to thief), is that okay or am I propagating 'theft culture'?
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scifibum
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quote:

quote:


What I find particularly hateful is when self-proclaimed "hate culture" opponents actively enable rape culture, by creating an expectation that masculinity equals rape, that rape is expected of all males. I've tried to communicate this to Pyr, but he keeps cowering behind that 95% number as if it meant something.


Maybe I miss out on the circles where this happens (or maybe it used to be more common?) but I've seen far more railing against this meme than I've seen of the meme itself. I don't know...I used to feel it more than I do now, this feeling of "Hey, I'm not like that problem with men you're describing!" Sometimes I suspect it's a reaction to something that wasn't said, that "not all men" is used as a response to claims that didn't include "all men" in the first place. You know?


Just a bit more musing on this point...

I think we ALL have to be indoctrinated with the belief that other people deserve respect and taught moral rules to limit the expression of our selfish desires. I also believe that aside from a small minority, we are all empathetic and have a basic desire to be a good person.

I'm somewhat open to the idea that rape should be expected of all people who aren't taught better, although it's probably much better to say that we should teach everyone that rape is wrong.

I don't think it's acceptable to equate masculinity or maleness with rape, though. And I think most of what I've seen from those who are concerned with rape culture in America doesn't quite do this, even if they oversimplify by always using "he" for rapists and "she" for victims. I do believe it would be preferable to use gender neutral language as long as that device isn't abused to avoid confronting where the larger share of the problem lives.

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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
So its main present effect might be to affirm that rape is never excused by the victim's behavior. Which is probably beneficial, IMO.
I have no problem with "rape culture" opponents using safety gismo publicity as a platform to talk about aspects of the rape problem that the gismo does not address. But suggesting that the inventors are misguided or part of the problem, is abusive and deserves to be held up to mockery.


Well, there isn't just "the problem". There are various related problems, such as the problem of reflexive victim-blaming. I think it's plausible that a focus on defensive measures can make those other problems worse.
If you were subtly and diplomatically suggesting that the vigor of my own defensive countercounterreaction in this thread might itself aggravate some problems, then (a) you have a very good point and (b) your diplomacy in subtly making this point during a heated argument deserves a standing ovation. Kudos.

My only defense is what OPT just said, i.e. that a 3 page discussion among men about what rape is and how best to fight it, is an inherently good thing regardless of bumps in the road. But that doesn't debunk your point, either. [Cool]


quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
quote:
Pete, I don't have any links for you, but I have read accounts from rape victims whose advocacy resembles Valenti's. I don't know if anyone in this category who was specifically victimized by GHB or Rohypnol has responded to the nail polish idea.
I'd love to hear them. I had a woman try to roofie me in a bar (according to the female bartender when I came back from the bathroom), though I think her intent was to get me to a hotel, kill and rob me. I wasn't planning on going to the hotel with her anyway, and she started screaming at me when I walked out without finishing the drink. I've talked to several roofie victims, clients and prospective clients, and suspect that they'd have a different perspective on the nail polish thing. I know that strippers are often expected to drink with clients (which Pyr will hopefully agree with me is a problem in itself), and that among them alone, roofie-detecting nails would prevent hundreds of rapes per year.

I'm persuaded that defenses against roofies are a good thing in situations where roofies are a significant risk, and that reducing the particular harm of putting unknown drugs into other people without their consent is a good unto itself. (Although other measures/precautions/strategies should never be ruled out simply because this tool exists, of course.)


Absolutely. I would argue that surreptitious roofying is in itself, even without the act of rape, an act morally comparable to forcible rape. I was furious when Michigan courts ruled that a guy that had roofied a woman to death with intent to rape but not kill her, was not guilty of felony murder or of poisoning. [Mad] Idiots!


quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
quote:
quote:
If I go kind of far out on a limb that I can't presently back up with anything solid: I think we as a culture are still struggling to fully and honestly account for who rapists are and why they are raping people.
I agree and well said. That's why I get very angry with people that insist that there's only one approach to deal with rape, and that anyone who approaches the problem from a different perspective has "MISSED THE POINT." As if there were only one point. Like the indigo girls say, there's more than one answer to these questions ...

quote:
There is plenty of evidence to think that many rapes are committed by people who don't think they are rapists, who haven't actually stopped to consider their own actions in an unselfish way.
I agree. Do you have any rebuttal to my argument that the higher the percentage of people in a given culture are predators, the higher of a proportion of predators might fit the profile that you just described?

What I'm saying is that:

1. the % of psychopaths in a society is more or less stable, regardless of culture.
2. the number of sociopaths might perhaps be reduced in the long run by increasing economic stability and well-being, but it's not going to just change with a bit of instruction.
3. Folks that fit the profile you describe, that (a) commit rapes they don't recognize as wrong (e.g. raping a lower caste woman in India to retaliate for something her family did) or
(b) commit rapes that they don't recognize as actual rape, e.g. "she was drunk and didn't say no." THESE ones can probably be reduced dramatically by instruction, if that instruction is intelligently given.

Do you disagree with my breakdown, SciFi? Comments, Aris?

I don't disagree that your 3rd category is the one that can be addressed with education and social pressure, and your other two points seem right to me.

I think what many feminists believe and are trying to solve is that your 3rd category is extremely common, under-reported, and largely under the radar of law enforcement, law makers, and other groups. I tend to find this credible given my own understanding of human nature and how shame can twist up the picture for both perpetrators and victims. However, the same factors make it very difficult to measure.




Sounds like you and I mostly agree here. My point is that we need to measure these numbers, and focus the discussion on the problem -- the persons that actually rape, rather than smearing masculinity generally. Pyr's shown no evidence that females commit sexual abuse for different motives than males do.

Also, LR has added a category that I missed, and let's call them group zero, the folks that rape because they literally don't have mental capacity to restrain themselves or to comprehend what they are doing. Some of these need medications, others simply need to be physically restrained.

quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
quote:
When I think about "rape culture" I think it includes the disturbing problem that rapes are committed by people who consider themselves decent people, and are considered decent people by others, even when they know what happened. Rapes are often chalked up to the belief that the perpetrators can't help themselves, or that the victims caused it to happen.
Well-said and agreed generally. Where I differ is this: I don't think that it all can be chalked up to rape culture. Indeed, much could be chalked up to rape culture, but I think that some of what you describe could be chalked up to a lack of sufficiently potent ANTI-RAPE culture. It's not enough to teach that rape cannot be justified. We need to actively inculturate that it's abhorrent. That it's morally closer to murder than to mere theft.
I'm not sure. I think some of the resistance to confronting the problem comes from this sense that rape IS terrible, so we better exclude these acts/situations/mistakes that could happen to anybody. I'm not sure that twisting the knob on how horrifying it is is the right approach to confronting such problems more honestly and completely.
That's a very good point. But isn't it an affirmation of rape culture to not insist that rape is more than mere "theft"? Isn't objectification part of the problem that we must fight? How can we fight rape culture if a body is considered not necessarily more special than property?

Perhaps do away with the "like unto murder" stuff, but still insist that it's more than mere theft?


quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I like the approach of insisting on bright line consent rules (although I believe that I agree with you that this is too simplistic for committed relationships where standing consent can be a legitimate thing, and we need something other than "rape" to describe true edge cases where consent appears to be genuine but isn't for reasons outside of the participants' control). We should attach pride and moral status to a commitment to avoid gray areas...by being careful never to assume too much or let our desires overwhelm our respect for other people's sovereign borders.

In principle, I'd agree that we should attach pride and moral status to a commitment to avoid grey areas. For example, to regularly go have sex with people while drunk, should be a moral faux pas for both men and women. It doesn't "blame someone for getting raped" to say that it's irresponsible (and when you're married, actually treacherous in an adulterous sense) to go drinking in a bar alone, or with people whose intent you should suspect.

I speak of responsibility in the same sense that we teach people to practice safe sex and use condoms. Someone who has bareback sex in bathrooms with strangers doesn't "deserve" to get HIV, but it's just not a good idea.

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I agree that rape and murder are similar in that they violate body sovereignty. I agree that comparison of rape and theft is too objectifying.

I think saying that violating someone else's agency over how their own body gets used is unacceptable is a fine message, but it's hard to balance that against the (IMO real and sad) fact that it's something that people may be inclined to do if they aren't trained otherwise. I don't know the right way to tune this. "You are by default capable and likely to do horrible things" is the wrong message and might shame people out of trying to be good if it's repeated often enough, but "Only monsters would do this act" doesn't seem right to me either when we are struggling to make progress past the point where it's all too prevalent.

[Frown]

quote:
If you were subtly and diplomatically suggesting that the vigor of my own defensive countercounterreaction in this thread might itself aggravate some problems, then (a) you have a very good point and (b) your diplomacy in subtly making this point during a heated argument deserves a standing ovation. Kudos.

My only defense is what OPT just said, i.e. that a 3 page discussion among men about what rape is and how best to fight it, is an inherently good thing regardless of bumps in the road. But that doesn't debunk your point, either. [Cool]

Can't take too much credit, actually, but I'm glad enough for how you took it.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:

[QUOTE]

What I find particularly hateful is when self-proclaimed "hate culture" opponents actively enable rape culture, by creating an expectation that masculinity equals rape, that rape is expected of all males. I've tried to communicate this to Pyr, but he keeps cowering behind that 95% number as if it meant something.


Maybe I miss out on the circles where this happens (or maybe it used to be more common?)
It happens in most of Pyr's statements on this topic, and in most of the links that I've cited and the one that Pyr cited.

quote:
even if they oversimplify by always using "he" for rapists and "she" for victims.
I don't really mind that, on its own. I usually use the same he/she construction, although occasionally I throw in a "he/she" as a reminder that it's sometimes the other way, or a variant he/he or she/she. What I'm complaining about his the hatefully stupid argument that the WHOLE problem of rape would be solved if we taught BOYS and MEN not to rape.

If the assertion is made in good faith, it's at least a triple idiocy: Even if one buys into (1) the femthink that sub-40 IQ folks, schizophrenics and psychopaths can be reliably "taught" not to rape [DOH] ; (2) Even if the 5% wasn't obviously underreporting abuse perpetrated by females. [Roll Eyes] the fact remains that (3) stopping 95% of rape does not solve the WHOLE problem of rape.

quote:
Sometimes I suspect it's a reaction to something that wasn't said, that "not all men" is used as a response to claims that didn't include "all men" in the first place.
Read the Pyr-speak and quotes above. Clearly they are saying that all men, and no women, need to be taught not to rape, and that this will solve "all rape."

It's hatefulness for the sake of hatefulness.


quote:
I think we ALL have to be indoctrinated with the belief that other people deserve respect and taught moral rules to limit the expression of our selfish desires. I also believe that aside from a small minority, we are all empathetic and have a basic desire to be a good person.

I'm somewhat open to the idea that rape should be expected of all people who aren't taught better, although it's probably much better to say that we should teach everyone that rape is wrong.


Amen. Saying that we should teach all males, and only males, not to rape, would be like saying we need to focus on teaching black men to not rape. It's hatefully underinclusive and wastefully overinclusive at the same time. Focus on everyone, and then we're all in one supportive common bond: an anti-rape culture.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I agree that rape and murder are similar in that they violate body sovereignty. I agree that comparison of rape and theft is too objectifying.

Nicely said and agreed. I think that's a good way to present it.

Scifi, Pyr, OPT: what do you think of this as a testbook

quote:
Rape is a form of torture. Rape and other forms of torture resemble murder in the sense that they violate victims' rights and freedom over their bodies, nevertheless, victims of rape and other forms of torture may eventually recover with good counseling and medical care.

Rapists sometimes excuse their crimes by arguing that rape is merely a "theft" of the victim's time. In fact, Rape and other forms of torture cannot be reasonably compared to theft, since they are crimes against the victim's mind, body, liberty, and will, while theft is merely a crime against property.

quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I think saying that violating someone else's agency over how their own body gets used is unacceptable is a fine message, but it's hard to balance that against the (IMO real and sad) fact that it's something that people may be inclined to do if they aren't trained otherwise. I don't know the right way to tune this. "You are by default capable and likely to do horrible things" is the wrong message and might shame people out of trying to be good if it's repeated often enough, but "Only monsters would do this act" doesn't seem right to me either when we are struggling to make progress past the point where it's all too prevalent.

I like the balance that you're trying to strike, scifi.

What do you think of this as textbook:
quote:
Some people rape because they have been brainwashed with religious or cultural teachings that rape is OK under some circumstances, or that some people "deserve" to be raped. In fact, rape damages the rapist as well as the rape victim.

It's also important to understand that the law does not allow someone to kill thieves in order to stop the them from taking property, but it is legal to kill a rapist in the act of rape or murder, to save life or to prevent the rape from continuing. However, no one is ever put to death for rape alone, and it's considered murder to kill someone as revenge for rape. Only murderers are put to death. So if you have a friend or family member that has committed rape, and you report them to authorities, you may be saving their life. Someone who has committed rape is very likely to rape again and again.

Whether you have committed rape, or if you have been raped, counseling can help restore you to sanity.



[ August 28, 2014, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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scifibum
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quote:
Read the Pyr-speak and quotes above. Clearly they are saying that all men, and no women, need to be taught not to rape, and that this will solve "all rape."

It's hatefulness for the sake of hatefulness.

I would say it's an us vs. them positioning for the sake of offering clear and unconditional support for the "blame the perpetrator, not the victim" policy. It's problematic, but I think it's okay not to hang a lampshade on it and instead respond in a supportive way that includes the missing nuance.
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
Read the Pyr-speak and quotes above. Clearly they are saying that all men, and no women, need to be taught not to rape, and that this will solve "all rape."

It's hatefulness for the sake of hatefulness.

I would say it's an us vs. them positioning for the sake of offering clear and unconditional support for the "blame the perpetrator, not the victim" policy. It's problematic, but I think it's okay not to hang a lampshade on it and instead respond in a supportive way that includes the missing nuance.
I don't see anything there to support. They focus on masculinity as the cause of rape, and basically say that female rapists should not be mentioned, let alone discussed or prevented, move along, nothing to see here. As far as helpful analysis, it belongs in the same category as "rape is just theft of a woman's time" concepts. It's odious, and since those that buy into it seem to be co-terminous with those that mock the 4 inventors for "missing the point" on rape, I'd say that it's invidious.

[ August 28, 2014, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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I don't think "to solve the rape problem, teach men and boys not to rape" does in fact also say that masculinity is the cause, or that female rapists are OK. If I saw the latter being argued I would object. (Well, maybe. I'm lazy and unpredictable, but I might!)
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I don't think "to solve the rape problem, teach men and boys not to rape" does in fact also say that masculinity is the cause, or that female rapists are OK. If I saw the latter being argued I would object. (Well, maybe. I'm lazy and unpredictable, but I might!)

Look at the actual quotes above. You've softened them considerably.

Besides, even if what they said didn't say that, actually following the program would communicate that message. Just ask StarLisa what she makes of the fact that the Torah condemns male homosexuality but doesn't mention lesbianism.

As certain events with university coaches and confessional priests have suggested, you don't have to say something OK out loud in order to indicate that it's OK. Surely you recognize that, SciFi. Silence gives consent. Society's silence is the reason I was denied treatment in the 1980s and 1990s. Silence was the reason that incest victims suffered without respite in the early 20th century. Need I go on? Silence on rape is rape affirmation. Anyone who has actually done anything in an anti-rape movement, should realize that.

{kicks absent friend, She Who Must Not be Named .} The trouble is that the "movement" today is filled with couch-potato facebookers that have never volunteered at a rape crisis or women's shelter.

[ August 28, 2014, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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scifibum,

quote:
In contrast, psychopathy is diagnosed in only about 20% of incarcerated criminals but 50% of serial rapists (Hare, 1993).
http://www.psych-it.com.au/Psychlopedia/article.asp?id=380

quote:
In recent years, criminologists have established that 95% of serial killers are psychopaths; so are up to 90 percent of serial rapists. [...] Psychopaths are said to be 50-95% of stalkers (estimates vary between experts) , 50% and upwards of domestic abusers, 100% of con artists, 95% of serial killers and between 50 and 90% of serial rapists.
http://www.alisonsummers.com/?p=493

quote:
Half of all serial rapists may be psychopaths (Prentky & Knight, 1991)
http://human-nature.com/nibbs/01/psychopathy.html

From the link that Ops provided of the 120 men (out of 2000) that admitted to engaging in rape or attempted rape (the question asked if they had engaged in having sex with a woman who was too incapacitated to object; or had used violence or the threat of violence - so legally rape) , 2/3 were serial rapists (average of 6.8 victims), and the serial rapists accounted for about 93% of the total rapes.

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I think it's true that obscuring part of the picture and using exclusive absolutes instead of more accurate inclusive language is a problem. I just don't see the overtones of hate for hate's sake. And I think if I'm right and that isn't actually there, and no affirmation of female rapists or ignoring abuse of boys/men is intended, then it's best to respond with a "yes and".
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If I'm wrong about hate for hate's sake, that in no way would affect my claim that the "feminist" language above that ALL rape will be solved if we teach MALES to not rape, is itself part of the rape culture, and affirms female rapists.

"Yes and" isn't an adequate answer to proposals like "it's bad for a man to rape a woman other than his wife." Would it be an adequate defense for such a statement to say, gee, I didn't "intend" to affirm inter-spousal rape," or to Pyr out, "but 95% of [reported] rapes involve a woman and someone other but her husband!" [DOH]

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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
scifibum,

quote:
In contrast, psychopathy is diagnosed in only about 20% of incarcerated criminals but 50% of serial rapists (Hare, 1993).
http://www.psych-it.com.au/Psychlopedia/article.asp?id=380

quote:
In recent years, criminologists have established that 95% of serial killers are psychopaths; so are up to 90 percent of serial rapists. [...] Psychopaths are said to be 50-95% of stalkers (estimates vary between experts) , 50% and upwards of domestic abusers, 100% of con artists, 95% of serial killers and between 50 and 90% of serial rapists.
http://www.alisonsummers.com/?p=493

quote:
Half of all serial rapists may be psychopaths (Prentky & Knight, 1991)
http://human-nature.com/nibbs/01/psychopathy.html

From the link that Ops provided of the 120 men (out of 2000) that admitted to engaging in rape or attempted rape (the question asked if they had engaged in having sex with a woman who was too incapacitated to object; or had used violence or the threat of violence - so legally rape) , 2/3 were serial rapists (average of 6.8 victims), and the serial rapists accounted for about 93% of the total rapes.

Also, Pyr and SciFi, bear in mind that a SERIAL RAPIST is a person who forces a series of victims (meaning THREE OR MORE victims) into unwanted sexual activity.

Not compare 95% of (reported) rapes being done by males, to 93% of rapes being done by serial rapists. And consider the fact that more than 99% of serial killers are male.

The number of sexual abusers (encompass rapists with child abusers) in the population, male to female, may actually be fairly close to each other.

In that light, the proposition of preventing ALL rapes by only teaching MEN not to rape, passes from the realm of merely stupid to satanic.

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To my surprise, there is actually a female serial rapist on record, although she didn't personally carry out the physical rape.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7869570.stm

She arranged for 80 different women to be raped, and then posed as the local rape counselor, and told the women that the only way to redeem themselves spiritually was to become a suicide bomber against the infidels. She claims to have persuaded 28 different women this way.

quote:
Iraq has lately seen an increase in female suicide bombers even as acts of terrorism have declined in the past two years. The development had some analysts puzzled as to how the terrorist networks got women to agree to martyr themselves, as most of their recruitment efforts had focused on radical young men. Samira Jassam, self-described as “the mother of all believers”, masterminded an effort to rape women as a means of shaming them into suicide for Islamist terrorists:

A WOMAN suspected of recruiting more than 80 female suicide bombers has confessed to organising their rapes so she could later convince them that martyrdom was the only way to escape the shame.

Samira Jassam, 51, was arrested by Iraqi police and confessed to recruiting the women and orchestrating dozens of attacks.

In a video confession, she explained how she had mentally prepared the women for martyrdom operations, passed them on to terrorists who provided explosives, and then took the bombers to their targets.


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Oh, here's another.

Today in Reading, England, a woman was sent to prison indefinitely for orchestrating the gang rape of a 16-year-old girl.
quote:
On April 3 of last year, 19-year-old Amber Roderick met her 16-year-old victim on the street and invited her to a house party. There, Roderick and her accomplices gave the girl booze and marijuana, then sexually assaulted her...twice.

The first assault was the work of Roderick and a 29-year-old man named Joseph Lawrence, who held the victim at knifepoint during the attack.

The second assault occurred not long afterward. The 16-year-old girl broke loose from Roderick and Lawrence and tried to escape through a bathroom. However, she was caught by Roderick and another party goer, 26-year-old Patrick Maughan, and subjected to another sexual attack.

This time, Roderick apparently rubbed dog shampoo all over herself before commencing the reportedly brief but traumatic assault.

As if all this weren’t bad enough, it was also revealed during court proceedings that the 19-year-old psychopath had only recently been released from jail for a prior sexual assault.

In 2008, when she was only 15 years old, Amber Roderick was the ringleader in the sexual assault of two young boys, ages 9 and 10. She and her two female accomplices, both just 12 years old, forced the two boys to go with them to the woods, where they were forced to perform oral sex on each other.

Roderick spent 2 years in something called a “young offenders’ institute” after her first foray into sexual assault...which was, of course, quite lenient.

Anyway, if I'm right and female serial rapists are fewer than male serial rapists in the same proportion to male:female serial killers, then it's probable that male:female rapists is something more like 3:1, and sexual abuse (encompasing child sexual abuse as well as rape) would be closer to 2:1.
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I think it's true that obscuring part of the picture and using exclusive absolutes instead of more accurate inclusive language is a problem. I just don't see the overtones of hate for hate's sake.

I would love to believe that. What other than hatred, could you explain intentionally going out of their way to focus the entire problem on men, saying "There is one single surefire way of ensuring that women don't get raped — and it's by teaching men not to do it."

Surprise, mothersporker . [DOH] Womenrape women too.

quote:
Karla Homolka, was released from prison after serving a short 12-year sentence for her involvement in drugging, raping, torturing and killing young girls over a decade ago.
But it's not even a surprise. Who among these "rape culture" opponents isn't familiar with the "Vagina Monologues" that celebrates the "good rape" when an older woman gets a 13 year old girl drunk to molest her before her vagina's been befouled by men? (befouled ... even "slut shaming" language is OK when it's done to promote lesbian rape).

http://abc30.com/archive/8940022/
quote:
FRESNO, Calif. --
A tearful apology from a former teacher couldn't convince a Fresno County judge to let her stay free after admitting to sex with a student.

Megan Denman, 30, pleaded guilty to six felony charges just a few months after her arrest. But she wasn't expecting to serve any jail time.

Denman came to court knowing other female teachers in her situation had avoided prison or even jail time. She was emotional throughout the hearing, and the worst of it came when she found out she wouldn't be as lucky as her peers.

Megan Denman's already wet eyes filled with tears as a deputy put her in handcuffs for a long trip to the Fresno County jail -- a trip her attorney says came as a shock.

"Long" for a woman, that is. She got six months
quote:
Prosecutor Lara Clinton argued that a sentence of probation would prove a double standard for female teachers.

"I think if we were talking about a 28-year-old man having sex with a 16-year-old student who is a child, his student, that would be pretty repulsive," she said.

But the victim didn't want Denman prosecuted, psychiatrists said she's extremely unlikely to repeat the crime, and she gave the judge an emotional apology.

"I'm very sorry for ther disappointment I've cause co-workers, students, myself, my husband," she said. "Every day I live with the guilt and hate that I have for what I've done."

The judge's final ruling means she'll carry that guilt to jail.

Denman is scheduled to get out of jail on April 30. She won't be able to work as a teacher again, but the judge also ordered she won't have to register as a sex offender.

She got six months for six felonies, and won't have to register as a sex offender. Meanwhile men are getting registered as sex offenders for taking a piss in a public garage.

[ August 28, 2014, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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Pyr, these parts of your article are excellent:

quote:
3. Test the thousands of rape kits currently sitting on shelves.

Via: Tumblr Project Unbreakable
It's bad enough that women have to go through the invasive procedure of a rape kit after a sexual assault, but what's much, much worse is that the entire, humiliating process is often done in vain. A horrifying number of rape kits in this country are still in a cold storage locker somewhere, waiting to be tested. According to the Justice Department, 400 thousand rape kits are presently sitting on shelves, doing no one any good. ... because many rapists [accounting for 93% of rape victims according to LR!] are recidivists, leaving kits untested allows rapists all over the country to roam free and commit additional assaults. ...

One thing is clear: Testing rape kits puts rapists behind bars. After Detroit finally processed its backlog, 100 serial rapists were detected and 14 prosecutions were filled. One of these offenders, whose original victim had filed a rape kit more than ten years ago, went on to rape three other women [before the rape kit was processed].

4. Improve how campuses handle sexual assault.

Via: Sand & Glass
Although rape is statistically common on college campuses, accountability is still far too rare. ... a recent study showed that 2 out of 5 colleges did not investigate a single rape report.

Feminist writer and activist Wagatwe Wanjuki experienced her college's culture of impunity toward rapists firsthand after she was sexually assaulted as a student. She believes we can eradicate rape on campus by strengthening the administrative response to incidents of sexual assault on campus.

"We need to have schools commit to properly punishing assailants. If cheating on a test is a violation of a school's code of conduct, why shouldn't rape be a violation as well? Schools need to make a public commitment to holding assailants accountable through providing adequate sanctions," Wanjuki told Mic.
...
10. Push the media to stop presenting rapists as victims.

ABSOLUTELY AGREED. I remember back in the 1980s people were shocked when BYU expelled star football team members for rape, even after the cops, big football fans, discredited the witness decided there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute since they only had her word while the three guys that raped her said they hadn't done it.

This one I find good, but dangerously oversimplified:
quote:
5. Teach men what consent looks like.

Data shows that many men will confess to the act of rape as long as you don't use the word "rapist." In fact, if you start asking college students about their behaviors with questions like "Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist?" you end up with a lot of them volunteering the information that they have, without realizing that this counts as rape.

It's not surprising college men are so confused about consent considering even a lawyer in the Steubenville rape trial argued that because a semi-conscious intoxicated teenage girl didn't utter the word "no," she had implicitly consented.

Yes, but stupid not to also tell women the same thing, since reporting often doesn't occur unless a female friend supports and encourages the victim to come forward.

Here it gets downright stoopid:

quote:
Enlightened advocates now realize that sex education programs should emphasize the presence of "yes," instead of the absence of "no." Enthusiastic consent, in other words, the "mutual verbal, physical and emotional agreement that happens without manipulation, threats or head games," needs to be taught in all schools, so that both women and men understand that there are actually no blurred lines when it comes to sexual assault.
[DOH] Focusing on the word "yes" only changes the rules in the manipulation, threats, or head games. A victim can be bullied until she says yes. Both implicit and explicit consent should be taught. If a woman physically climbs onto a man, grabs his dick in her hand and inserts it into herself, it's not rape if she doesn't say yes too. And if she says yes, and then later says NO! as he's about to push in, then there's NO consent, despite the earlier yes.

In short, teaching rules about consent should not be done by people who don't know how to put an unambiguous set of instructions together. Political dildos should seriously stop shouting orders about what needs to be taught.

On the following, she's just spewing disinformation:
quote:

Encouraging the woman to alter her behavior to stop rape does nothing to prevent the potential rapist from choosing another target.

[DOH] Think harder. REPORTING attempted rape, and rape, is a woman's behavior that prevents a potential rapist from choosing a NUMBER of targets, since 93% of rapes are by serial rapists. And if the wannabe rapist is a first timer, then even failing in the attempt is likely to prevent any future rapes.

quote:
The overemphasis by the media on rape prevention products like ... drug detecting nail polish also helps perpetuate the myth that the most common form of rape is from a stranger at a club.
Think harder. [Roll Eyes] Nail polish is even more useful to detect when a friend or family member hands you a drink. All the more important to be subtle about testing the drink when it's a friend or family member.

quote:
11. Prevent politicians from saying absurdly offensive and ignorant things about rape. ... Let's expect more from our political leaders,

I absolutely sympathize with the sentiment, but how shall we put it into practice? How does our society "prevent" politicians from saying absurdly offensive and ignorant things about anything?

The answer is brilliant and original:
quote:
using the ballot box to show that this type of outdated, ignorant worldview no longer has a place in our nation's government.
Ah, the BALLOT BOX! Tell me more about this new feminist idea of democracy. [Big Grin] I agree that we should use the ballot box to toss out pols that say stupid and destructive things about rape. BUT WE ALREADY DO, according to the writer's own frakking examples!


quote:
There's always the classic example, provided by amateur OB/GYN (and equally amateur congressional candidate) Todd Akin, who infamously claimed that during "legitimate rape," the body has ways to "shut that whole thing down" to prevent pregnancy from sexual assault.
YES HE DID. But let's look at what happened to him. Let's look at the facts before we agree with her that the system is broken. Akin got tossed in 2013, specifically for that stupid rape comment.

Think and put that into context for a moment. For a sitting congress rep to lose an election by 15% is pretty unusual. For a SITTING Republican pro-life candidate in Republican territory, to get tossed by 15% during the Tea Party reign of terror is rare indeed.

To put a cherry on top: Akin had a HISTORY of being reelected despite making hopelessly stupid comments and waffling. For example,
  • In a 2008 speech on the House floor, Akin called abortion providers "terrorists" and alleged that it was "common practice" for abortion providers to perform "abortions" on women who were not actually pregnant. He nevertheless won reelection in 2008.
  • in 2011 Akin said,"at the heart of liberalism really is a hatred for God and a belief that government should replace God," and then waffled about what he really meant, and finally apologized. He nonetheless won reelection in 2012.


One might surmise that Atkin's constituents were hopelessly conservative and tolerant of extremism, stupidity, clumsiness and waffling.

NEVERTHELESS even this hopelessly tolerant bunch were not willing to tolerate Atkin's ignorance on rape. They fired his ass during one of the most polarized anti-Democrat Tea-party-driven election rallies in history, the 2012 election.

Today, Todd Atkin is literally the poster boy for rape ignorance correction services. If you run the name Todd Atkin through Google, you get a host of information and ads providing you corrective information on rape and basic human biology.

One might surmise that Todd Atkin actually provided a wonderful service for exposing and correcting ignorance about rape. Your article writer is quite foolish to address him as "part of the problem."

quote:
Then there's Indiana Senate candidate Richard Mourdock, who casually explained that rape is something "God intended to happen."
Here, the author, to give her the benefit of the doubt, passing on someone else's lie without checking her sources. Mourdock did NOT say that God intended the RAPE to happen, he said that God intended the PREGNANCY to happen despite the rape.

I think it was insensitive and wrong for Mourdock to oppose pregnancy in the case of rape, and that's why Mourdock (another sitting Republican) lost narrowly. That's how sensitive the rape issue is. It makes even religious pro-lifers break ranks.

If there's a problem with how the modern American election system handles congressional stupidity about rape, your writer has certainly failed to expose it.

Since # 11 focuses on things we should do that we've already done, let me propose

#12: allow married people say no to spousal rape. (1975, thank you South Dakota to 1993, thank you North Carolina)

#13: let women vote (thank you, US Congress and the Suffragettes)

#14: Force Congress representatives to stand for periodic election. (1789, thank you Madison & Co.)

#15 make rape illegal during warfare (1385, thank you Richard II)

#16: make rape illegal (done 50 BC, thank you Julius Casar)

Can anyone else think of anything else that we've done historically that we can take credit for by putting into our new anti-rape plan that we can say is better than rape drug detection nail polish?
...

[ August 29, 2014, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Seriati
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Two things, first, I don't know why you're bothering, Pyr absolutely convinced by ideology and logic free from common sense. There is no world in which it's better for a specific person's safety right now to avoid protective measures and try to teach about 150 million people to act better. It's a blind faith to even believe that majority of the "problem" cases are not deliberately problem cases and hence not likely to be swayed by eduction. Simply put this is not a secret message, and its already ubiquitous in campus life, yet that's still where the majority of rapes occur.

But second, it's incredibly stupid to have this debate on a thread about this nail polish. All those stats, and frequent cites to men being rapists without even realizing it, are utterly irrelevant on a thread about people deliberately using roofies to incapacitate people. There's no grey area there, there's no argument that they didn't know it was wrong, there's no argument that a little bit of education telling them it was wrong would have a material impact.

Ideology may say that self protection is counterproductive to properly attributing blame, but common sense says the world isn't perfect and unless you want to be an ideologically pure victim you should be aware of things that increase your risks of falling afoul of a predator. It won't be your fault if you do, but even knowing its not your fault isn't a lot of comfort on your hospital bed.

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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Rape is a form of torture. Rape and other forms of torture resemble murder in the sense that they violate victims' rights and freedom over their bodies, nevertheless, victims of rape and other forms of torture may eventually recover with good counseling and medical care.

I think this is a double victimization. The impact of any trauma including torture and rape is personal. Making an assumption that someone can't recover without a specific treatment undermines their own confidence in themselves. There's nothing wrong with needing help to recover, but the message on mental health for victims and non-victims ought to be to remove the stigma completely. It should be little more controversial to have a "primary care pyschologist" than it is to have a primary care pyhsician. And acknowledging that mental injuries vary, just like physical ones obviously do would help.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
quote:
Sure, but they make up a statistically insignificant part of the population once you change the cultural factors that push people toward those kinds of attitudes and allow them to propagate.
So until that happy time in the far future where the 'cultural factors' have changed, are we allowed to advise each other about the ways to best protect ourselves? If I advise someone to put a lock on their bike (rather than be teaching potential thieves not to thief), is that okay or am I propagating 'theft culture'?
No one has said no to do that, just taht the usefulness of trying to invest even more effort into that path has already well passed the point of diminishing returns. Defensive measures are already culturally inculcated, so trying to say that rapes still happen because people aren't doing a good enough job defending themselves and we should invest even more heavily in telling them that they need to defend themselves only amounts to blaming victims for not doing a good enough job of defending themselves.

I've never once said that we shouldn't ensure that people are properly equipped to defend themselves in the current situation. Only that solutions to rape based in the idea that we can put an end to rape through even better defense will never pay off, and that the fundamental cultural attitude that rape is just a part of our culture that we have to accept and can't eliminate is pretty close to the core of what's meant by accepting and perpetuating rape culture.

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quote:
There's no grey area there, there's no argument that they didn't know it was wrong, there's no argument that a little bit of education telling them it was wrong would have a material impact.
That's a very clearly stated version of the complete nonsense that's being used to misrepresent the position being taken.

People don't do things that they thing are wrong. They do things that they think they are justified in doing in some way or another. You completely miss the point when you say that, in this case education is about teaching people that rape is wrong. That's already well known. The point is that we need to counteract and educate people about the cultural forces that give people who do such things the ability to justify such actions to themselves, such that it becomes unthinkable to do them in the first place, not merely something that's generally wrong, but able to be self-justified in their case.

But even so, this is a narrow case. The vast majority of rape is acquaintance rape and has nothing to do with drugs at all, but with abuse of trust and maneuvering oneself into a position where you end up suppressing the ability of the other person to express their lack of consent, whether though fear, exhaustion, shock, or other forms of manipulation that you may not even realize are at work because they're normalized by our culture.

Education isn't about telling people rape is wrong, it's about helping expose and counteract those cultural factors that lead to rape so that people can consciously resist acting on them and eventually stop reinforcing and propagating them.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
Only that solutions to rape based in the idea that we can put an end to rape through even better defense will never pay off
Right there you've stated a false premise. No one has ever claimed that we can "put and end to rape" through better defence. Indeed, no one but you as even implied that we can "put and end to rape" at all.

You start from the false premise that rape is something rooted in a specific culture that can be eliminated if only we can make modifications to the culture.

We have already tried the cultural approach, as I have witnessed since I was a kid in the 1980's. After school specials, "no means no" campaigns, presentations in school auditoriums, social media campaigns, rallies. Yet remarkably rape persists as a social problem. It's almost like it can't be eliminated by changing culture because .... it's not caused entirely by culture.

I would turn your thesis on its head - it's the culture warriors who, after 30+ years of trying to reform culture, have achieved ever diminishing returns.

Harm reduction, a policy championed in regards to drugs, prostitution, teen pregnancy and many other social ills, has apparently found quite a bit of favour. The idea being that you can't eradicate a social problem like drug use or rape through brute force or just repeatedly telling people to stop doing it. Rather, you achieve the benefit of reducing harm by setting your sites lower on more achievable goals. So for instance, if you have drug users, you give them clean needles so they don't pass along HIV. If you have young teens having sex, you give them condoms. If you have women being drugged you give them a device that let's them test their drinks.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
Education isn't about telling people rape is wrong, it's about helping expose and counteract those cultural factors that lead to rape so that people can consciously resist acting on them and eventually stop reinforcing and propagating them.
This is a pipe dream. And it will backfire, because nothing is going to disengage young males quicker than education campaigns that presumes them to be potential rapists. This isn't just ineffective, it's offensive.
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