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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Bush predicted rise of ISIS and warned us not to prematurely pull out of Iraq (Page 10)

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Author Topic: Bush predicted rise of ISIS and warned us not to prematurely pull out of Iraq
edgmatt
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quote:
In other news, a homegrown convert to Islam, Jah'Keem Yisrael (as he called himself) also known as Alton Nolen went into a business in Moore Oklahoma (where he was unsuccessful in attempting to convert his former coworkers before he was fired there) and beheaded a middle aged woman named Colleen Hufford and then tried to behead another middle-aged woman named Traci Johnson.

We now have beheading attacks occurring on American soil,...

This is extremely intimidating. I wonder if one of their goals (ISIS) is to get Americans to start hating and suspecting all Muslims or really anyone of middle eastern decent. Then all it would take would be for one incident where a Muslim is falsely accused/arrested/beat up/shot and that would be the excuse for them to go (even more) nuts. And with that, there would be Americans, in this country, that would say "see it's all our fault because we are so racist and so intolerant." which would only help the crazies.

One way to curb that (reasonable) fear that non Muslims are surely going to hold against Muslims (and therefore the repercussions of that fear) would be for non-crazy Muslims to loudly condemn this attack, and ISIS in general.

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noel c.
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Pete,

You cannot get very for into the Koran without exposing yourself to "islamosnuff". It is in the eighth chapter, which you must have come across in your research on the prophet's progressive contributions to the rules of war.

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TomDavidson
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Interestingly, in the seventh chapter of the Bible, the mentor/"Gandalf" character -- with whom we are meant to sympathize -- water-tortures and then kills almost every living thing on the planet.
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noel c.
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Nah, that is not near as interesting as the fact that the topography of the Black Sea floor shows evidence of an underwater delta fan through the Bosporus. One theory posits that a breach between it, and the Mediterranean occurred around 5,600 BC. Supposedly the Black, and Caspian Seas were smaller freshwater lakes at the time.

The resulting deluge is thought to be the source of multicultural myths of a world-wide flood. It sure would have looked that way if you lived on what is now an ocean floor.

(Back to the subject at hand)

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TomDavidson
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Are we not discussing gruesome acts of punishment in the early chapters of religious scripture?
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noel c.
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Tom,

I have pretty much given up on understanding what you are talking about. You seem to be conflating 7,600 year old natural disasters with a particular aspect of a continuous 1,400 year old Moslem tradition of jihad.

The workings of your mind are undoubtedly much more interesting to you than me.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I have pretty much given up on understanding what you are talking about.
Excellent! That is far, far better than pretending that you know, and is a major step forward.
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AI Wessex
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We have to wonder what exactly the situation would be in the areas occupied or under threat from ISIS if we do succeed in our mission to "degrade and destroy" them.

The Kurds are redirecting oil pipelines to send the oil to Turkey, away from where they had been directed in Iraq. The targets we are bombing in Syria are more likely to revert to Assad's control than fall into the hands of the so-called rebels fortified with another round of US weaponry. The western Sunni regions of Iraq will be far more independent from Baghdad refusing to take any more abuse from the central government, and the remainder of Iraq will continue to be controlled by sectarian Shia factions under increasing influence from Iran.

So it is quite possible that we will have achieved the opposite of all of our stated objectives over the past decade by creating a tripartite Iraq and strengthening Assad in Syria. Don't blame Obama, however, his hands were tied by history.

But that assumes that we and some combination of allies will indeed vanquish ISIS. That doesn't seem practical since they represent an ideology as much as a cruel and vicious militant religious force.

What would then be likely is that we will have chopped off the head of yet another violent group but left the body to grow new limbs in Africa and throughout the Mideast.

That is what military hubris and extreme nationalism in the US has done for the past 50 years and seems unable to stop itself from doing yet again, and yet again.

[ September 27, 2014, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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noel c.
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"But that assumes that we and some combination of allies will indeed vanquish ISIS. That doesn't seem practical since they represent an ideology as much as a cruel and vicious militant religious force."...

It is not practical because our commander in chief does not evidence an ideology capable of creating, or maintaining, a coalition capable of challenging fundamentalist Islam in any serious way.

"That is what military hubris and extreme nationalism in the US has done for the past 50 years and seems unable to stop itself from doing yet again, and yet again."...

No, that is what Barry has achieved in six years of feckless domestic, and international, leadership which kisses the back-side of ideological opponents... and alienates allies.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
"But that assumes that we and some combination of allies will indeed vanquish ISIS. That doesn't seem practical since they represent an ideology as much as a cruel and vicious militant religious force."...

It is not practical because our commander in chief does not evidence an ideology capable of creating, or maintaining, a coalition capable of challenging fundamentalist Islam in any serious way.

"That is what military hubris and extreme nationalism in the US has done for the past 50 years and seems unable to stop itself from doing yet again, and yet again."...

No, that is what Barry has achieved in six years of feckless domestic, and international, leadership which kisses the back-side of ideological opponents... and alienates allies.

Agreed. All I see from this administration is defeatism and excessive restraint that they wilfully broadcast to our enemies. If we're not going to have ground troops fine, but don't get on TV and tell that to ISIS! Don't tell them that the first night of bombing will be "the worst." It's sickening.

A decade after 9-11 and we are still screwing around with reading America's emails and haven't focused on the true need: to rebuild our HUMINT and infiltrate these organizations. How do we know we haven't done that? Because if we had we would have stopped ISIS from getting this big by making their leaders disappear into black bags at early stages of their influence.

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noel c.
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"Because if we had we would have stopped ISIS from getting this big by making their leaders disappear into black bags at early stages of their influence."...

Now, Seneca, how are we ever going to humanize the enemy with that kind of talk? 😱

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AI Wessex
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quote:
It is not practical because our commander in chief does not evidence an ideology capable of creating, or maintaining, a coalition capable of challenging fundamentalist Islam in any serious way.
This buys into the very hubris and uber-nationalism that I was talking about. Given your vast store of knowledge about all things political, military, cultural and religious both domestic and foreign spanning all of recorded history, what lasting good did we achieve in Iraq I or II?

All I see is that we created far more death and corruption than existed before we went in, and we are reaping the fruits of that destructive approach to solving foreign conflicts with ever-increasing violence and extremism.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
to rebuild our HUMINT and infiltrate these organizations.
This is your particular obsession, as if Administrations over the past 12 years haven't tried to do that, and as if that is the key to thwart all such groups.
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noel c.
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"This buys into the very hubris and uber-nationalism that I was talking about. Given your vast store of knowledge about all things political, military, cultural and religious both domestic and foreign spanning all of recorded history, what lasting good did we achieve in Iraq?"...

Nice story line Al, you make it sound like I voted for Barry.

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AI Wessex
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Answer the question?
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noel c.
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There was a question in that?
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AI Wessex
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Of course, you even quoted it. Reread again. I know you have enough detailed knowledge of the conflicts, etc., to answer it.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
It is not practical because our commander in chief does not evidence an ideology capable of creating, or maintaining, a coalition capable of challenging fundamentalist Islam in any serious way.
That is because he is not, despite many claims to the contrary, a Muslim. The only coalition that'll successfully challenge fundamentalist Islam is liberal Islam.
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noel c.
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Ah, you are resurrecting that nebulous "we" which keeps appearing in this thread. "We" are not Barry. "We" did not disregard the military advice of Robert Gates, Leon Panetta, of even the spineless Admiral Dempsy.

[ September 27, 2014, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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noel c.
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"Liberal Islam"... What a concept!
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Seneca
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The idea that liberal Islam exists in the middle east is laughable. Christianity curtailed a lot of the brutality of their origins with the New Testament. However in Islam the penalties for gays and women who do certain things are quite clear and can't merely be "interpreted away." We see evidence of this in the largest Islamic nations that use Sharia Law.

[ September 27, 2014, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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noel c.
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Not to put too fine a point on it Seneca, but a militarized christianity did not arise until three hundred years after its founder was crucified by the very government that ultimately hijacked his movement.
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Seneca
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I didn't say immediately right after... but it provided the theological justifications later.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
The idea that liberal Islam exists in the middle east is laughable.
I have several friends that are liberal Muslims in the Middle East. At least one liberal Muslim from the Middle East used to post here regularly until she was driven off by jerks.

-----------

quote:
However in Islam the penalties for gays and women who do certain things are quite clear and can't merely be "interpreted away."
Except, of course, when they are. After all, the Biblical penalties for certain actions are also quite clear, but both Jews and Christians will give you a wide variety of scriptural (and cultural, and pseudo-scriptural or purely orally traditional) reasons why certain scriptural elements are not to be carried out literally, or currently, or until X is again true.

Many of those exceptions are actually built right into the Qu'ran, making it a surprisingly flexible document. The biggest problem with Islam right now is three-fold: 1) the intellectual tradition of Islam has been broken by centuries of occupation and poverty, so that relatively unscholarly imams can gain respect and power in the way an unscholarly rabbi cannot (at least, easily); 2) religious divisions are also largely tribal ones, due to the Shiite/Sunni split, so tribal and territorial war has been mixed up with religious war and has delayed any traditional reformation in regions where these two sects must butt heads; 3) life now comes so cheaply in the Middle East (due in part to decades of despotism and foreign invasion) that the young people there see throwing their lives away in revenge as a better option than trying to get a productive job.

None of these things can be easily changed by invading them.

[ September 27, 2014, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Seneca
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Which middle eastern Islamic nation is "liberal" where women can walk around without hijabs, have sex outside of marriage and are considered equal to men and where gays face no structural persecution?
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noel c.
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"I have several friends that are liberal Muslims in the Middle East. At least one liberal Muslim from the Middle East used to post here regularly until she was driven off by jerks."...

I have several friends from Russia, and Ukraine. They are moderates, and would have made all the difference if they had not been driven off by jerks.😎

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TomDavidson
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Ah. So you are saying that there is currently no Islamic nation in the Middle East that is run by liberal Muslims, to a given standard of "liberalness?" Not that there are not a significant number of liberal Muslims of influence in many Islamic nations?

I would expect all of the above reforms to happen within a generation in Qatar, the UAE, Comoros, and arguably Tunisia. I would have said Egypt was headed in that direction until Mubarak's people screwed the pooch.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I have several friends from Russia, and Ukraine. They are moderates, and would have made all the difference if they had not been driven off by jerks.
So would you say that moderates in Russia do not exist?

(Note, by the way, that she was not driven out of the Middle East by jerks; she was driven off this forum by jerks.)

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noel c.
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"Many of those exceptions are actually built right into the Qu'ran, making it a surprisingly flexible document... "...

Yes, Mohammed was a surprisingly "flexible" (opportunistic) theologian.

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noel c.
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"So would you say that moderates in Russia do not exist?"...

No moderates capable of challenging Putin exist in Russia.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Yes, Mohammed was a surprisingly "flexible" (opportunistic) theologian.
As were the many authors and many, many interpreters of the OT and NT. They all consider them perfectly pious adherents of their faiths, despite their vast differences in theological and social beliefs, and curiously they all use the same books to support those beliefs.
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noel c.
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"As were the many authors and many, many interpreters of the OT and NT. They all consider them perfectly pious adherents of their faiths, despite their vast differences in theological and social beliefs, and curiously they all use the same books to support those beliefs."...

Of course Al, and I have no doubt that you can direct me immediately to some New Testament passages that advocate terrorism, and duplicity in dealing with infidels, right?

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AI Wessex
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Don't over-think it, Noel. How many have been killed over the centuries with the bible as the justification?

You still haven't answered my question. If you need to research it, which would surprise me given how much you know, I'll check back with you later to see how it's going.

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noel c.
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"Don't over-think it, Noel. How many have been killed over the centuries with the bible as the justification?"...

Don't under think it Al. We both know you would be lost in an attempt to scripturally support your blithe comment.

"You still haven't answered my question. If you need to research it, which would surprise me given how much you know, I'll check back with you later to see how it's going."...

What question?

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AI Wessex
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Noel, I'm depending on you to supply the information about atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. You should have that information at your finger tips.

You know the question you're dodging. Why be coy? I get the feeling you know what you would say would be easily challenged.

Now you've got two questions you won't answer. One wonders why.

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noel c.
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"Noel, I'm depending on you to supply the information about atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. You should have that information at your finger tips."...

You want to make your argument for you? 😕

Do you care if these atrocities committed "in the name of Christianity" find support in the teachings of Christ?

"You know the question you're dodging. Why be coy? I get the feeling you know what you would say would be easily challenged."...

Probably, but just for fun clearly state your question.

"Now you've got two questions you won't answer. One wonders why."...

The ball is in your court Al.

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TomDavidson
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Al, noel's claim is that the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity weren't really Christian, because the scriptural support for such atrocities is nowadays called into question. He contrasts this with Islam's more clear and unambiguous punishments, although to do so he has to ignore quite a lot of both Jewish and Christian history and theological history.

noel fancies himself a bit of an expert on this topic (among others), but can't engage with any real depth because his only real study -- at least, the only topic on which he's shown any familiarity -- has been Protestant apologia. To this end, he will endlessly dodge unless he finds someone -- like Pete -- willing to discuss Protestant traditionalism with him.

[ September 27, 2014, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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noel c.
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"... the scriptural support for such atrocities is nowadays called into question."...

Ah, another windmill-tilter.

Go for it Tom, cite these NT references.

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TomDavidson
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You'll note, Al, that noel gets very excited at the prospect of someone directly addressing a topic that he believes he understands. If I were to cite historical references, here, and address the way they were traditionally interpreted, he would continue to dodge. He'll ask questions that hint at post-Enlightenment distinctions between the New and Old Testaments without actually citing one of those distinctions (to prevent their Enlightenment origins from being addressed), pretend that he fails to recognize references to basic historical fact, etc. It's a routine he's been doing for a couple years now (which, looking at his registration date, means pretty much as long as he's been on the board.)

I believe that he honestly does think that Christianity is in some way exceptional, but I think he shies away from any serious consideration of that topic pretty quickly.

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noel c.
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"... he honestly does think that Christianity is in some way exceptional, but I think he shies away from any serious consideration of that topic pretty quickly."...

Any time now Tom...

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