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Author Topic: Bush predicted rise of ISIS and warned us not to prematurely pull out of Iraq
TomDavidson
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I'm not suggesting that all criticism of Obama is a CIA conspiracy. Rather, I'm saying that we should be aware that Obama and the CIA have been fighting each other since he took office, and we should keep that in mind when we hear comments from CIA officials or "discover" CIA "leaks" that would appear damning.
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Seneca
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So the guy who could fire and replace everyone in the CIA is "fighting" the CIA?

And yes, if the CIA or FBI was trying to "fight" the President then it definitely would be worth purging those organizations. However, that is clearly not happening.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
So the guy who could fire and replace everyone in the CIA is "fighting" the CIA?
Stop for a moment and figure out how difficult it would actually be to tear down our national security apparatus. Can you imagine the press if Obama simply dissolved the CIA? What Bill O'Reilly would say?
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Seneca
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If our intelligence agencies were really working against the President, it would be such a huge national security threat that I think what pundits would have to say about it wouldn't matter much, and Congress would be happy to have rogue Intel agencies purged given that Obama has been having the CIA spy on the Senate for him.
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noel c.
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Tom,

Does this "objective reality" that you mention include the fact that Mike Morrell, former CIA Deputy Director under David Petraeus, falsified facts within the Administration's Benghazi talking points for the purpose of sparing the Whitehouse from embarrassment?

Does it also include the fact that Morrell now works for Hillary Clinton's wannabe campaign manager? How about the fact that charges regarding Petraeus' sexual dalliance are still yet to be addressed by the Justice Department to keep him silent on issues surrounding his tenure as CIA Director?

It seems that Barry has not only been able to hold his own against the CIA, but use it as a political tool... just like the IRS.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Does this "objective reality" that you mention...
Just a quibble: I didn't mention "objective reality."

But, yes, the observed reality that I mentioned does indeed take that into account.

Seriously, I think you'll find that certain events in the Obama presidency make a lot more sense when viewed with the awareness that he has been fighting with the CIA -- mainly for oversight over the CIA and visibility into their operations -- since he assumed the presidency.

quote:
Congress would be happy to have rogue Intel agencies purged given that Obama has been having the CIA spy on the Senate for him.
As an example: if you read Panetta's account of this, you might be surprised by the events as described.

Basically, the CIA has gone about as rogue as an organization can possibly go, and even the people put in charge can only make so much headway. Obama made the mistake of throwing up his hands and refusing to work with them a couple years ago, and the organization has been screwing him over ever since.

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Seneca
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If that's true then Obama is too incompetent to be President. If the CIA was really actively working against the President then that would be one of the greatest possible security threats we could face as a nation given the CIA's access and resources. Given such a huge threat to our national security it would completely warrant dismantling our Intel infrastructure and starting from scratch.

So which is it, Obama is too incompetent to control his own agencies or is this idea of the CIA working against Obama just a delusional fantasy?

[ October 08, 2014, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
If the CIA was really actively working against the President then that would be one of the greatest possible security threats we could face as a nation given the CIA's access and resources.
I think the CIA has been meddling in the presidency since the Carter Administration. Obama's annoyed them, but Carter seriously pissed them off.
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noel c.
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"As an example: if you read Panetta's account of this, you might be surprised by the events as described."...

It would be interesting to see if these perceived problems with the CIA were more critical than the shortcomings identified by Panetta regarding Obama last night. The CIA has reason to be upset with him after being thrown under the bus on ISIS intelligence.

Can you provide a citation?

"Basically, the CIA has gone about as rogue as an organization can possibly go, and even the people put in charge can only make so much headway."...

This is a problem with bureaucracies generally, which is the reason large government is problematic.

"Obama made the mistake of throwing up his hands and refusing to work with them a couple years ago, and the organization has been screwing him over ever since."...

How have they been "screwing" him?

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Seneca
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Today Representative Duncan Hunter told the press that the government reported to Congress that 10 ISIS fighters have been caught coming across the USA-Mexico border. DHS is denying it, but he is not backing down off of these claims.

My guess is the Obama administration will attempt to casually retract their denial on Friday and downplay this incident.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
“The suggestion that individuals who have ties to ISIL have been apprehended at the Southwest border is categorically false, and not supported by any credible intelligence or the facts on the ground,” a DHS spokesman said in a statement today. “DHS continues to have no credible intelligence to suggest terrorist organizations are actively plotting to cross the southwest border.”

After Hunter’s comments to Fox, one of his sources nuanced their claims, saying that some of those apprehended at the border might be ISIS-affiliated or possibly Americans who fought with the Syrian Free Army – one of many ISIS enemies.


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AI Wessex
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I ran across an interesting review of the dismal failure of the US war effort in Iraq - written in December, 2006. The author was far more hopeful than I had ever been about the outcome of that war, but he looks at failure after failure on the part of the Bush Administration to handle events on the ground competently or to make the most rudimentary plans corresponding to actual events. Included are a number of instances where different agencies and departments within the Administration actively opposed or interfered with each other, rendering real progress and coherence in US strategy virtually impossible. They even undercut and impeded each other to ensure that their own voices wouldn't be less central to discussions.

Complain about the fractious happenings in the Administration today, but let's not forget how things got the way they are and how incredibly hard it is to promulgate and deliver an effective plan for war halfway around the world in a country that does not resemble our own. If you think things are bad now, recognize that we made it inevitable for them to turn out the way they are a long time ago.

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noel c.
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"... he looks at failure after failure on the part of the Bush Administration to handle events on the ground competently or to make the most rudimentary plans corresponding to actual events."...

Al, have you read the text of Panetta's interview?

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noel c.
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http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/2014/10/08/leon-panetta-enters-no-spin-zone-part-1

PANETTA: Yes. There's no question that not maintaining a true presence in Iraq so that we could continue the momentum towards trying to secure that country and try to hope that it could govern itself in the right way -- I think was a mistake.

PANETTA: -- 10,000-troop presence in Iraq and supported CIA operations, supported the diplomatic operations that we wanted to continue. The real issue was how hard did he fight to make it happen?

PANETTA: Well, I think that when things like that happen, it's more than just an intelligence failure, it's a policy failure as well.

PANETTA: I have heard him admit to mistakes. The real question is whether or not you learn from those lessons and then do the right thing.

PANETTA: Well, I want him to learn from his mistakes.

PANETTA: I think the big picture is that this is a President who I think wants to do the right thing for the country. The real question is, whether or not he's willing to --

PANETTA: It's very important when the President says something that we do it. And I think that's one of the problems with taking the position on chemical warfare in Syria -- that we drew a line and we get to stand by it.

PANETTA: I think they are getting a mixed message as to whether or not the United States will stand by its word.

PANETTA: I think this President is smart enough to understand the dangers. The real question is, can he translate that into the kind of action that will help protect this country?

PANETTA: Look, I'm a guy who believes that Barack Obama by virtue of what I've seen from the time I was there, has the guts to do the right thing. The real question is, will he make the decision to do it?

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/2014/10/08/leon-panetta-enters-no-spin-zone-part-2

PANETTA: I have no reason not to believe them. (Benghazi Annex contractors)

PANETTA: I think -- if, in fact, there was a 30-minute delay (in responding to Consulate attack), I think that it is important for the congressional committee to look into that -- and to determine what happened.

LEON PANETTA: We told the President there is an attack that's going on, that terrorists are involved in the attack.

LEON PANETTA: my view was with the kind of weapons that showed up, there was no question in my mind that it was a terrorist attack.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/2014/10/08/leon-panetta-enters-no-spin-zone-part-3

LEON PANETTA: Look, I'm the son of Italian immigrants and my parents believed deeply in the American dream. And my father used to tell me the reason he came to this country is because my mother and he believed they could give their children a better life. I'm worried about whether or not our children are going to have a chance at a better life.
You have this tremendous dysfunction in Washington. You've got a number of threats that we're confronting abroad. We're dealing with a situation where I think this country can go one of two directions. We can either be a great country -- an America in renaissance or we could be an America in decline.

LEON PANETTA: -- we govern either by leadership or crisis. And today we are largely governing by crisis.

LEON PANETTA: You're dealing with a very dangerous and fanatical enemy in Syria. And frankly it's not going to work just to do air attacks without having troops on the ground who know where the targets are and what's going on. Now, if we have People that we can trust on the ground, that's fine. But if the military thinks that we ought to have Special Forces, boots on the ground in order to do what's right, I think the President ought to be open to that kind of --

LEON PANETTA: And I think deep down, you know, he knows what needs to be done. What he's got to do is develop the will to fight, to get into the ring --

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noel c.
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Barry has not, as yet, developed that will to fight:

Oct 09, 2014
Military.com by Richard Sisk

President Obama met with the head of the U.S. Central Command and other defense leaders at the Pentagon Wednesday to review the airpower campaign in Iraq and Syria that critics say has met with only mixed success.

"We've been honest about the limits of airpower" in combating the militants of the Islamic State, Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said prior to the late afternoon meeting with CentCom Commander Gen. Lloyd Austin, other combatant commanders, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, and Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Kirby denied that the campaign has been a failure thus far but acknowledged that Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) fighters "haven't given up a whole heckuva lot of ground" despite the bombing that began in Iraq on Aug. 8 and was extended into Syria on Sept. 23.

However, "we're not expecting any change to our strategy" to come out of the Pentagon meeting on the effort to "degrade and destroy" ISIS through airstrikes and advising local forces to take back territory, Kirby said.

He repeated the White House prohibition against "boots on the ground," saying that "there will not be a return of U.S. ground forces" to lead the fight against ISIS.

In remarks after the meeting, Obama said that the campaign against ISIS would be long and difficult.

"Our strikes continue alongside our partners. It remains a difficult mission," Obama said. "As I've indicated from the start, this is not something that is going to be solved overnight."

Obama said the good news was "that there is a broad-based consensus not just in the region but among nations of the world that ISIL (another acronym for ISIS) is a threat to world peace, security and order, that their barbaric behavior has to be dealt with."

The Pentagon session came as ISIS fighters pressed their three-week assault on Kurdish defenders of the northern Syrian border town of Kobani despite a series of U.S. airstrikes.

"We're doing everything we can from the air," Kirby said. "It's not like we ignored this crisis around the town of Kobani."

In a visit to a Syrian refugee camp, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said "Kobani is about to fall," NBC News reported. Erdogan said the plight of Kobani demonstrated that the problem of ISIS "cannot be solved via air bombardment."

Erdogan repeated demands that the U.S. help in creating a buffer zone along the border with Syria, and imposed a no-fly zone over Syria against President Bashar al-Assad.

At the Pentagon, Kirby said that a buffer zone and a no-fly zone were "not on the table as a military option that we're considering."

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Barry has not, as yet, developed that will to fight:
We can get to the rest of your post later, but first let's discuss why you think it's important to call Obama by a childhood nickname. Why do you not use "Boy George" for his predecessor?
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noel c.
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"We can get to the rest of your post later, but first let's discuss why you think it's important to call Obama by a childhood nickname. Why do you not use "Boy George" for his predecessor?"...

Because Barry *is*, and always been, a chameleon... while GWB is *not*, and never was, a transvestite homosexual.

I will give Barry credit for keeping at least one campaign promise. Against all my instincts, he has managed to finally achieved the inter-party unity which has alluded him until now;

We have Jimmy Carter, and Dick Cheney, in full agreement that this administration's foreign policy is disasterous in its implications for the welfare of this nation as far as the eye can see.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
quote:
Barry has not, as yet, developed that will to fight:
We can get to the rest of your post later, but first let's discuss why you think it's important to call Obama by a childhood nickname. Why do you not use "Boy George" for his predecessor?
Typical Alinsky tactics.
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noel c.
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Philnotfil,

"Typical Alinsky tactics."...

Interesting, I was thinking exactly the same thing.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
Philnotfil,

"Typical Alinsky tactics."...

Interesting, I was thinking exactly the same thing.

Hey, I'm glad that you recognize their worth and use them.
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noel c.
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"Hey, I'm glad that you recognize their worth and use them."...

Would you be willing to get specific, or was this intended as humor?

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Typical Alinsky tactics.
Thanks (maybe). FWIW, I really want to understand why Noel has such a distorted view of Obama. He seems fixated on his early childhood for some reason, but I don't understand why. Perhaps exploring his juvenile obsession with calling Obama by his childhood nickname is a window into that realm, as it reveals something about himself. I'd like to learn more about what that might be.
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noel c.
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"Thanks (maybe)."...

Al, he insulted you.

If you don't have an interest in the thread topic, start another one. If it is interesting I might participate.

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AI Wessex
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I'm ok with this one. Boy George was given to him because of his reckless approach to carrying out foreign policy by just beating up people he didn't like. Do you think that might be true? What nickname do you think fits him better?
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philnotfil
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This is amusing. I was actually complimenting noel in his use of Alinsky tactics.
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noel c.
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"Do you think that might be true?"...

This is a little off the beaten path, but you associate an unrestrained homosexual libido with "beating up people he (Boy George) didn't like"?

"What nickname do you think fits him better?"...

If he was still president I might have a stronger sense of applicability, but if I must reach back it might be something like "W".

I was a Steven Forbes supporter.

Can you bring yourself to stay on topic?

What do you think of comments by our ex-CIA/Defense Secretary?

[ October 09, 2014, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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noel c.
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Philnotfil,

"This is amusing. I was actually complimenting noel in his use of Alinsky tactics."...

Perhaps I overestimated your understanding of Alinsky, care to elaborate?

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vegimo
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Are you ridiculing Obama in some manner? Are you doing it in a way so as to cause AI and others to get upset (even just a little)?
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noel c.
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Is it accurate... even a little?
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PSRT
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quote:
What do you think of comments by our ex-CIA/Defense Secretary?
I think that for the most part, advice given to the country and to presidents by the CIA or the military, when it comes to foreign policy, has been bad for the people of the united states if executed. Therefore, I look at what those departments say with extreme skepticism.
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noel c.
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... So what do you think of Panetta's comments?
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AI Wessex
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quote:
This is a little off the beaten path, but you associate an unrestrained homosexual libido with "beating up people he (Boy George) didn't like"?
Right after I explained why he was given that nickname you repeat your assertion that it was a misapplied attempt to paint him as a homosexual. You're very wrong about that, but don't seem willing to let go of that interpretation. Why do you insist on the homosexual connection?
quote:
Can you bring yourself to stay on topic?
The topic is a discussion of Bush's prediction of ISIS emerging and that it's Obama's fault. Since Bush is far more responsible for ISIS specifically and terrorism in the region in general, the more interesting topic is why people go out of their way to give Bush a pass for his catastrophic actions and instead blame Obama when the results of those policies manifest in ways that were predicted would happen years before Obama ever took office.
quote:
What do you think of comments by our ex-CIA/Defense Secretary?
They are interesting, of course, and we will get to them eventually if you stick with this thread. BTW, did you hear Panetta on the Daily Show? His criticisms weren't strictly addressed to Obama's actions. One choice thing he said when asked why Congress hasn't come back into session to deal with this "existential threat" is that he wouldn't expect them to, given that [members of the House] can't even find the bathroom in the Capitol Building.
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noel c.
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"Right after I explained why he was given that nickname... "...

You did not explain anything, but (apparently) simply made a random association that you expected me to sign onto as self-evident.

"... you repeat your assertion that it was a misapplied attempt to paint him as a homosexual."...

Do you know who "Boy George" is?

"You're very wrong about that, but don't seem willing to let go of that interpretation. Why do you insist on the homosexual connection?"...

... Because you are wrong about that. If you are going to use pop-culture figures to make a character assignment, at least take the time to discern the relevance.

"The topic is a discussion of Bush's prediction of ISIS emerging and that it's Obama's fault."...

Yes, and Bill Clinton's Chief of Staff, Barry's first CIA Director, and Barry's second Secretary of Defense, are all in agreement with me. You have yet to address that directly.

"Since Bush is far more responsible for ISIS specifically and terrorism in the region in general... "...

Again, you just skated past a big white elephant sitting nineteen posts back. I need you to rationally discuss Panetta's pointed, albeit subdued and respectful, critique of his boss.

Do you understand the implications, about you, bundled in Philnotfil's assertion that I effectively employed Alinsky tactics on you? I take that as an Aris style insult...

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TomDavidson
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To be fair, Phil didn't actually say you were using Alinsky's approaches effectively.
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philnotfil
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If noel wasn't intentionally using an Alinsky tactic, then referring to the president as Barry is just childish. I was trying to extend the maximum benefit of the doubt.
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noel c.
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This is what he "actually" said. :

"I was actually complimenting noel in his use of Alinsky tactics." ...

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noel c.
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Philnotfil,

Are going Alinsky on me? 👍

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Do you know who "Boy George" is?
Yes, can you understand why applying a well-known moniker doesn't always imply that the later person is assumed to have the same traits as the first person? In this case, the keys are "Boy" and "George", rather than "Boy George". Bush called Rove "Turd Blossom" and was himself dubbed "Bushturd" in some quarters. Does that mean that Bush is fat?
quote:
Yes, and Bill Clinton's Chief of Staff, Barry's first CIA Director, and Barry's second Secretary of Defense, are all in agreement with me. You have yet to address that directly.
Many others disagree, of course, but as I said we'll get to that eventually. Did you notice my reference to the Panetta interview on the Daily Show? What do you think of that?

[ October 10, 2014, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
Philnotfil,

Are going Alinsky on me? 👍

No, I'm giving up on you.
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noel c.
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"Yes, can you understand why applying a well-known moniker doesn't always imply that the later... "...

Do you understand the supreme idiocy in misapplication of a well known moniker? "Barry" happens to be an actual alias used in his madrasah student iteration. He has others, would you like a multiple choice?

" ...but as I said we'll get to that eventually." ...

No.

As I said, you need to rationally address it now... or not, but you will be wandering on your own.

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