Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Bush predicted rise of ISIS and warned us not to prematurely pull out of Iraq (Page 4)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 17 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  15  16  17   
Author Topic: Bush predicted rise of ISIS and warned us not to prematurely pull out of Iraq
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Thank goodness we have the democrats to tell us how ineffective we are and how we can't defeat our enemies.

We did a pretty terrible job of stabilizing Iraq, so I am not sure why we'd think we're going to succeed now, unless we all plan on perpetual occupation and never ending expense. Sure, we can kill lots of people. It doesn't seem to prevent others from wanting to kill us too.
Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Al,

"... Tell us about our glorious successes in the Mideast over the past 20 years."...

There are two ways to measure that.

First; Israel is still in the map. That is a supreme tribute the efficacy of foreign aid, and the resilience of nations genuinely committed to the western model of self-determination. I wish we had been as successful in Lebanon, the one-time bastion of indigenous democracy at the bleeding-edge of Islam. Reagan dropped the ball on that one when he accepted moral equivalence between the Christian Phalange, and Islamic fundamentalism. Not only representative government ceased to exist, but Christians themselves (on much the same terms that we now see in Iraq).

Second; Saudi Arabia, for all of its duplicity, has kept western economies growing over the age of petroleum-fueled industry. We are nearing the end of that era, and when the curtains close the region will revert to its 9th century cultural status. You can take the Bedouin off the camel, but you cannot take the camel out of the Bedouin. I personally don't care if they choose to live that way.

"And tell us how much more it would have cost to prevent our present straits and how much more to get out of them now."...

It is interesting to me that you recognize "straits" at all, but to your question; The remedy would have "cost" much less in lives, and treasure, than it will now to return to the status quo ante. You can thank Barry for that. We *will* pay that price, because people like you still want fuel in your tank at something less than $10/gallon... and access to all the commodities that are likewise impacted by energy costs. The day of big oil is nearing an end however, and it will not have a damn thing to do with Barry's wind, and solar farms.

In the interim, we should encourage all aspiring adolescent jihadists to wage holy war in the new "Islamic State". It will create a target rich environment equivalent to a Terminex roach-motel.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
In the interim, we should encourage all aspiring adolescent jihadists to wage holy war in the new "Islamic State". It will create a target rich environment equivalent to a Terminex roach-motel.
"Let's create a lot of enemies, then we can consider it a success when we kill them! Lots of our people are gonna die too, but did you really think that national security was about saving our people's lives? You silly, national security is really just about killing lots and lots of enemies, even if it's just enemies we're creating in the process of killing them!"

Noel, When you realize that people aren't roaches, (not not even aspiring jihadists are roaches) you'll realize that the "bugzapper" strategy is only helping the purposes of Islamic jihad. The only thing it does for your side is give certain types of Americans sadistic pleasure -- because these types count success as the number of enemies killed, rather than the number of lives saved.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All due respect Aris, every aspect of your response is wrong.

- Fundamental Islam is "at war" by virtue of its religious mandate. No amount of making nice will change that, and we have a fourteen-hundred year sampling of the pattern to prove it.

- Armed jihad was encouraged by the prophet himself... blessed be his name.

- The historical record is fairly definitive on the effect of armed resistance to jihad. Islam becomes static in territorial aspirations only when it is defeated militarily. (Again, attested to during the life of the prophet, blessed be his name.)

- Demographically, we "create" more enemies when the sacred Islamic rite of beheading infidels becomes entertainment for juveniles. (Most moslem males are below the age of fourteen.)

- Zoologically you are correct about the "roach" identification, Islamic extremists are vertebrates after all. [Wink]

- More dead jihadists does equal a net gain in living humans, and their current adoption of conventional tactics leaves them open for a world of hurt should the U.S. manifest a resolve to fully engage ISIS. The ~30,000 recent recruits massed in Syria/Iraq can be reduced to mulch if escalation is abrupt, and intense.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
- Fundamental Islam is "at war" by virtue of its religious mandate.

-Armed jihad was encouraged by the prophet himself

Agreed, that doesn't change. What does change is the number of muslims participating in this war. And I'm saying that your "bugzapper" strategy has pushed more people to fight under the banner of fundamentalist Islam against the West and against non islamist muslims.

You can leave out the "blessed be his name" and such sarcasms: I quite possibly despise Islam more than you do. I'll tell you right out that I believe Islam (as a memeplex) to be despicable, and that Islam needs to be defeated for the region and the world to have peace.

So step one: stop encouraging Islamic jihad. Stop having "bugzapper" strategies which are about wanting to have people want to go into jihad against you.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
In the interim, we should encourage all aspiring adolescent jihadists to wage holy war in the new "Islamic State". It will create a target rich environment equivalent to a Terminex roach-motel.
Ah yes, brilliant! Make more so you can kill more!
quote:
- Demographically, we "create" more enemies when the sacred Islamic rite of beheading infidels becomes entertainment for juveniles. (Most moslem males are below the age of fourteen.)
Yes! Yes! Only one thing, the reasons for the large number of "juveniles" is because their fathers were slaughtered in previous military engagements and Iran had a "fertility" project several years ago where they encouraged families to have more babies.

But that's a good thing, right? If they keep producing new "Moslem" "juveniles", we keep killing them as fast as they appear. Everybody's happy!

[ September 16, 2014, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"... Islam needs to be defeated for the region and the world to have peace."...

I agree entirely.

"So step one: stop encouraging Islamic jihad. Stop having 'bug paper' strategies which are about wanting to have people want to go into jihad against you."...

... Step two?

Al,

You do realize that Iranians are in opposition to a Sunni caliphate, correct?

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, today. But that doesn't mean we can't still kill them, since until last week they were on the verge of nuking Israel, and you have pointed out that all the carnage of the past two decades is acceptable because Israel still exists.
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Yes, today. But that doesn't mean we can't still kill them, since until last week they were on the verge of nuking Israel, and you have pointed out that all the carnage of the past two decades is acceptable because Israel still exists."...

This is an unresponsive dodge to my question, but you have inadvertently isolated the flaw in Aris' non-strategy. Iranians now understand the fruitlessness of throwing children into the meat-grinder, which they foolishly experimented with back in the 1980s in their war with Saddam.

It does *not* create more willing soldiers for Allah, but it does provide international news agencies with vivid visuals of massed rotting corpses fertilizing plant growth in deserted battlefields. As a recruitment tool, it was a spectacular failure. The Iran/Iraq war came to a halted stalemate, and Iran licked its wounds... not to repeat the spectacle. Instead they have pursued a technological offensive which has entailed educating their young men.

Guess what that does to the fundamentalist dynamic?

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do you mean to suggest that the problem with the most recent adventure in Iraq is that it didn't kill enough people? Since local islamists still haven't given up on armed struggle.
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
This is an unresponsive dodge to my question
No, your question was both rhetorical and a throwaway. You sometimes refuse to consider any nuance and at other times nitpick in microscopic detail. All of a sudden Iran is not a problem, apparently, because they don't want a caliphate. Is it really that simple in your mind?
quote:
Guess what that does to the fundamentalist dynamic?
You know a lot more than anyone else here about international affairs, religion and military engagements, so why don't you explain it.
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Do you mean to suggest that the problem with the most recent adventure in Iraq is that it didn't kill enough people? Since local islamists still haven't given up on armed struggle."...

The most recent "adventure" in Iraq was a counter-insurgency which necessitated heavy involvement by American, and British, special forces. Yes, we did kick butt, but Barry snatched defeat from the jaws of a victory achieved through the strategy developed by General Petreaus (since discredited by this administration with a sex scandal).

We are now in an entirely new circumstance. These people are so emboldened by American timidity, that they have requisitioned U.S. equipment and employed conventional tactics.

Do you remember what happened to Saddam's Republican Guard when they played that game in Kuwait?

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"You know a lot more than anyone else here about international affairs, religion and military engagements, so why don't you explain it."...

An educated populace tends to lack the fervor of ignorant extremism.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So how long should the US have stayed in the region? Five more years? Ten? Since the Iraqi government had wanted them gone, should the US have re-invaded the country, against the government they had installed?
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"So how long should the US have stayed in the region? Five more years? Ten? Since the Iraqi government had wanted them gone, should the US have re-invaded the country, against the government they had installed?"...

We should have stayed just as long as it took to outlive unrepentant Nazis, and Japanese Bushido hold-outs.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Step two?
Step two is unfeasible as long as Democrats are appeasers of the Islamists and as long as Republicans are racist genocidal freaks. Step two would be to stop dealing with the populations of the Middle-east as if they are defined by their being "muslim" and start treating them like human beings whose interests are actually most probably counter to the interests of Islam.

This means you stop waging a "War on Terror" and you start waging a "War for the Freedom Of Religion". And you stop delighting in the deaths of middle-easterners just because they're middle-easterners.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So how did de-Baathification work compared to de-Nazification? Maybe the two situations aren't analogous. And you do know how the US occupation of Japan reacted to the Korean war? Not so much outliving the hold-outs as giving them new jobs.
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Step two would be to stop dealing with the populations of the Middle-east as if they are defined by their being 'muslim' and start treating them like human beings whose interests are actually most probably counter to the interests of Islam."...

This sounds like the rant of a typical utopian unaffected by the realities of the world as it actually exists.

Could you translate your position into a workable foreign policy?

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
We should have stayed just as long as it took to outlive unrepentant Nazis, and Japanese Bushido hold-outs
Such a bad analogy, you had already outlived the *Baathists*.

If our analogy to the Iraq War is WWII and your big enemy after the Iraqi War are the Islamists -- then that means they correspond to the *Communists*. Where you don't actually fight them, you divide the territory between the two of you, and then spend the next 50 years building an alliance against them and mostly preparing your defense in case they attack -- until they collapse from the inside out.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"So how did de-Baathification work compared to de-Nazification? Maybe the two situations aren't analogous. And you do know how the US occupation of Japan reacted to the Korean war? Not so much outliving the hold-outs as giving them new jobs."...

"De-Baathification", as a secular phenomena, was simple enough to achieve. Our current problem is the same one that Saddam fought; Islamic fundamentalism.

[ September 16, 2014, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"... that means they correspond to the *Communists*. Where you don't actually fight them, you divide the territory between the two of you, and then spend the next 50 years building an alliance against them and mostly preparing your defense in case they attack -- until they collapse from the inside out."...

Kinda like what we see happening in Iran, right?

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Haven't you suggested we co-operate with Iran against ISIS? I imagine that will go as well as getting the Soviets to 'liberate' eastern Europe.

If Iran is running on the same schedule as the USSR, they have a few decades left.

Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Haven't you suggested we co-operate with Iran against ISIS?"...

Hell no! Only an idiot like our Secretary of State would suggest such nonsense.

"I imagine that will go as well as getting the Soviets to 'liberate' eastern Europe."...

What are you talking about?

"If Iran is running on the same schedule as the USSR, they have a few decades left."...

No, the technology curve is exponential, not linear.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Could you translate your position into a workable foreign policy?
As NATO was built to resist the capitalist west against a Soviet communist invasion, build an international organization with the purpose of resisting the secular world against religious tyranny.

This would be an organization with concrete membership. Any country that wanted to be a member would have to decriminalize atheism, to abolish anti-blasphemy and anti-apostasy laws -- to ensure that religion-justified hate crimes are punished to the maxium extent under the law. They wouldn't have to be *democracies*, but they would have to ensure freedom of religion, and freedom of information (e.g. the teaching of the theory of evolution) -- but they would also be free and indeed encouraged to ban advocacy for religious terrorism and jihad.

Membership in that international organization would come with military and more general economic benefits, but such would come with a strict evaluation that the nation is doing its utmost to stop the spread of religious fascism.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"As NATO was built to resist the capitalist west against a Soviet communist invasion, build an international organization with the purpose of resisting the secular world against religious tyranny."...

"Communism" *was* religious tyranny, and your parallel holds only insofar as the seeds of self-destruction are paradoxically integral to "Islamist" survival.

I see this in Iran. How do you propose to defeat the Sunni counter-part?

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
As NATO was built to resist the capitalist west against a Soviet communist invasion, build an international organization with the purpose of resisting the secular world against religious tyranny.
Such an organization would be doomed to failure, unfortunately. American opposition would kill it stone dead.

Noel, I must have gotten you confused with someone else.

Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Can anyone tell me about the muslim jihads of the 1800s?
Posts: 3719 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Can anyone tell me about the muslim jihads of the 1800s?"...

They existed in West Africa on a scale limited by lack of cultural sophistication. If Mediterranean Arabs were deprived of Western technology, you wouldn't know anything about them either.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
"You know a lot more than anyone else here about international affairs, religion and military engagements, so why don't you explain it."...

An educated populace tends to lack the fervor of ignorant extremism.

No idea what that is supposed to mean [Smile] . From what I can tell your foreign military positions are closer to extremism that the majority, who lack your fine grain detailed understanding of ordnance but are yet still able think through the issues.
quote:
Yes, we did kick butt, but Barry snatched defeat from the jaws of a victory achieved through the strategy developed by General Petreaus (since discredited by this administration with a sex scandal).
Here's a perfect example of fact-twisting to suit an extremist position. Perhaps he orchestrated that out of some unresolved issue stemming from his childhood?
quote:
Our current problem is the same one that Saddam fought; Islamic fundamentalism.

Except that wasn't a main problem for him. His problem was maintaining his own secular and religious Sunni hereditary despotic regime which was based on suppressing the Shia population. Al Qaeda was a nuisance factor in Iraq and most other countries in the region until we legitimized it by starting two wars against it and force-invading two countries that weren't responsible for its actions.
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"No idea what that is supposed to mean. From what I can tell your foreign military positions are closer to extremism that the majority, who lack your fine grain detailed understanding of ordnance but are yet still able think through the issues."...

You should have stopped with the first sentence. It's okay Al.

"Here's a perfect example of fact-twisting to suit an extremist position. Perhaps he orchestrated that out of some unresolved issue stemming from his childhood?"...

Precisely what fact do you believe was "twisted"?

"His problem was maintaining his own secular and religious Sunni hereditary despotic regime which was based on suppressing the Shia population."...

You are giving Saddam way too much credit for pluralism. In the secular context, every Iraqi outside of tribal Tikrit posed a potential problem (or even his immediate family). It was the unifying nature of fundamentalism across tribal barriers that posed the real obstacle to unopposed rule.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I seem to be having trouble understanding you, noel. You say "every Iraqi outside of tribal Tikrit" was a potentially a threat and that "the unifying nature of fundamentalism across tribal barriers" is what made it dangerous. Do you mean to suggest that fundamentalism could have cause opposition groups, both Shia and Sunni, to unify against Saddam?
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
You should have stopped with the first sentence. It's okay Al.
You should stop looking in the mirror and marveling how good you look to yourself.
quote:
Precisely what fact do you believe was "twisted"?
It's not true. It's a false statement of fact. Either you know it's not true or it is the unconscious result of projecting your committed hatred toward Obama onto people that he trusted but whose disappointing actions are independent of him. Do you really want to "forgive" a philandering military leader when his indiscretions could be used to blackmail him and subvert the country's best interests? What would you have done, patted Petraeus on the head and said try not to make any more messes?
quote:
In the secular context, every Iraqi outside of tribal Tikrit posed a potential problem (or even his immediate family).
That's not fundamentalism, but tribal loyalty. One could argue that such extreme loyalty to one's hereditary clan is in itself a kind of fundamental extremism.
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"I seem to be having trouble understanding you, noel. You say
'every Iraqi outside of tribal Tikrit' was a potentially a threat and that 'the unifying nature of fundamentalism across tribal barriers' is what made it dangerous. Do you mean to suggest that fundamentalism could have cause opposition groups, both Shia and Sunni, to unify against Saddam?"...

No, Saddam was paranoid, and for good reason. It is part, and parcel, of the tyrant's job description. Fundamentalism simply constituted the largest "faction" over which he had no control.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Do you really want to 'forgive' a philandering military leader when his indiscretions could be used to blackmail him and subvert the country's best interests? What would you have done, patted Petraeus on the head and said try not to make any more messes?"...

Since when has philandering been an impediment to career advancement within the Democratic Party? Do you know how long the administration sat on their information (or why the "investigation" is still open more than two years later)? Why did the left nickname the General "Betray-us"?

[ September 16, 2014, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Did some research.

1803-1837 Padri War; islamic scholars trying to reclaim muslims who had wandered from islamic teachings, eventually the Dutch stepped in and got the muslims united in fighting against the Dutch

1804-1808 Fulani Jihad; an islamic scholar was exiled by the king, his former student, so he came back with an army and took over the country (this would make a great movie), this was followed by several decades of muslims doing the same thing over and over again until the British and French took over

1825-1830 Java War; muslim aristocrats in rebellion against Dutch colonialism

1830-1847 Conquest of Algiers; muslims unsuccessfully defended Algiers from the French

1873-1913 Aceh War; muslim unsuccessfully resisted Dutch colonialism in Indonesia

1899-1913 Moro Rebellion; muslims resisted American colonization in the Philippines


It appears that offensive jihad against westerners is a relatively recent reinvention (it was popular up until about 750AD, but not seen again until our day).

What changed?

Posts: 3719 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Since when has philandering been an impediment to career advancement within the Democratic Party?
You confirm my worst expectations with virtually every post you make. You'll note that that is not even consistent with your own argument that they discredited him, since as you say they are fine with family values violations (though not to the degree Republicans are, of course).
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"It appears that offensive jihad against westerners is a relatively recent reinvention (it was popular up until about 750AD, but not seen again until our day)."...

We are agreed then that authentic Islam established its modern boundaries through armed proselytization?

"What changed?"...

In order or occurrence:

- Cultural ossification on a medieval template.

- Petrodollars.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
We are agreed then that authentic Islam established its modern boundaries through armed proselytization?
In the same way that Christianity established its modern boundaries through armed proselytization. The character of Christianity was established when it stopped being a religion of women and slaves and started being a religion of soldiers and Emperors.

What changed in Islam? All those unsuccessful defenses. Colonialism and subjugation does bad things to cultures. Particularly since Islam has it origins in triumphalism.

Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"You'll note that that is not even consistent with your own argument that they discredited him, since as you say they are fine with family values violations (though not to the degree Republicans are, of course)."...

No Al, liberals only need to discredit Petraeus with those otherwise inclined to support him based upon his service to the country (that would be non-liberals). I am genuinely surprised that you are disturbed by that fact.

Benghazi is the Achilles heel of a certain democratic favorite for the 2016 presidential race. Her reputation as Secretary of State was protected by a Petraeus predecessor, and subordinate at the CIA, Michael Morrell... you know, the guy that falsified a report on Benghazi, and perjured himself before congress when he blamed the misinformation "talking points" on the FBI.

Eventually he took over the position vacated by Petraeus, and when that spot became a little too hot for comfort went into private employment with Beacon Global Strategies (a Hillary front organization).

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noel c.
Member
Member # 6699

 - posted      Profile for noel c.   Email noel c.       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"In the same way that Christianity established its modern boundaries through armed proselytization."...

Facts please...

"The character of Christianity was established when it stopped being a religion of women and slaves and started being a religion of soldiers and Emperors."...

... Bad history NH.

If you are going to run with that one, you will need to demonstrate the continued existence of Byzantium, and Catholic conquest of Western Europe under Constantine.

Posts: 3564 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 17 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  15  16  17   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1