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Author Topic: Liberal principles and the Islamic disconnect
Seneca
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Islamic State is now dropping gays off of tall buildings in front of huge crowds that are cheering with approval as a public form of execution for the "crime" of homosexuality.

[ January 18, 2015, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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PSRT
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Considering American Christians have been trying to convince African countries to institute the death penalty for homosexuals, do you think this is a exclusively a problem with Islam?
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Seneca
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Run the numbers, they anywhere close to each other?

Nope.

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PSRT
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I don't know. What are the ppercentages of Christians vs Muslims in non industrialized countties that support this? In industrialized?
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Seneca
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Well we know what % of French support ISIS doing this, 15% overall and nearly 30% of their 18-24 year olds. Pretty horifying. I thought that France was "enlightened" and "industrialized."
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vegimo
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Seneca,
We absolutely don't know what percentage of French people support ISIS doing this. The report on the survey you reference was in August. We don't know what the questions were. We don't know when the survey was taken. We don't know how those same people would respond if they were asked whether they supported ISIS throwing gay men off of buildings. We don't know if 15% would be in support of the political positions held by ISIS any more considering the events of the past weeks.

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vegimo
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PSRT,
No matter how much Seneca or anyone else criticizes Islam and only Islam for crimes against humanity, I don't believe that necessarily calls for saying that some other group in some other place is terrible too. Terrible things happen all over the world and there are often terrible justifications for those terrible things. Dropping people off of tall buildings for any reason is terrible. Is that not true?

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Seneca
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quote:
We absolutely don't know what percentage of French people support ISIS doing this
Yes we do.
http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795
quote:
The report on the survey you reference was in August.
So what? Are you contending ISIS hadn't slaughtered lots of people before then and hadn't had it reported all across the world in the media?

quote:
We don't know what the questions were.
Yes we do. France isn't some isolated, uneducated 3rd-world cesspit with no media coverage. Their population is highly educated and highly informed.

One in six French citizens sympathises with the Islamist militant group ISIS, also known as Islamic State, a poll released this week found.

The poll of European attitudes towards the group, carried out by ICM for Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya, revealed that 16% of French citizens have a positive opinion of ISIS. This percentage increases among younger respondents, spiking at 27% for those aged 18-24.

A recent Ifop poll placed French president Francois Hollande’s approval rating at just 18%.

Try Newsweek for only $1.25 per week

The survey also tested attitudes in Britain and Germany and found that 7% of British citizens responded favourably to ISIS. However, UK polling showed an inverse demographic trend to that of France, with support for ISIS rising with age. 4% of 18-24-year-olds saying they either strongly or somewhat support ISIS, compared to 6% of 24-35-year-olds surveyed and 11% of 35-44-year-olds. Positive attitudes to ISIS in Germany showed less divergence, remaining between 3% and 4% for all age groups.

Newsweek’s France Correspondent, Anne-Elizabeth Moutet, was unsurprised by the news. “This is the ideology of young French Muslims from immigrant backgrounds,” she said, “unemployed to the tune of 40%, who’ve been deluged by satellite TV and internet propaganda.” She pointed to a correlation between support for ISIS and rising anti-Semitism in France, adding that “these are the same people who torch synagogues”


quote:
We don't know when the survey was taken
Yes we do.

One in six French citizens sympathises with the Islamist militant group ISIS, also known as Islamic State, a poll released this week found.

quote:
We don't know how those same people would respond if they were asked whether they supported ISIS throwing gay men off of buildings
Given that ISIS had already done qualitatively and quantitatively worse things by that date and time I'd say you're objectively wrong.

quote:
We don't know if 15% would be in support of the political positions held by ISIS any more considering the events of the past weeks.
As it has been suggested maybe the number would drop in terms of what people are willing to SAY to anyone asking them... but it's hard to believe that these people who already knew Islamic State was doing terrible things to tons and tons of humans would all of a sudden change that belief because of a less than 30 people killed in France after Islamic State had slaughtered tens of thousands.
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vegimo
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We absolutely do not know how many French people support ISIS throwing gays off of high buildings for being gay.
You are still wrong.


The poll was conducted in July, "before the group released a video of an apparently British jihadist executing American journalist James Foley."
I was wrong about knowing when the poll was taken, you are wrong about the worldwide coverage of their atrocities.

We still don't know what questions were asked in that poll - whether they were "soft" questions designed to elicit a favorable response, or actual direct questions asking if people straight-up support ISIS.
You are still wrong.

It is exceptionally easy to believe that French people would change their views of ISIS after the attack on Charlie Hebdo. When the violence is directed at a target close to you, you will tend to like it less.

You are wrong.

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PSRT
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quote:
No matter how much Seneca or anyone else criticizes Islam and only Islam for crimes against humanity, I don't believe that necessarily calls for saying that some other group in some other place is terrible too. Terrible things happen all over the world and there are often terrible justifications for those terrible things. Dropping people off of tall buildings for any reason is terrible. Is that not true?
I think when people criticize a group of people for doing terrible things, and ignore the terrible things their own group of people does, the hypocrisy should absolutely be called out. When people criticize "the other," for things their in group is doing, I think its downright dangerous not to call it out.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
No matter how much Seneca or anyone else criticizes Islam and only Islam for crimes against humanity, I don't believe that necessarily calls for saying that some other group in some other place is terrible too. Terrible things happen all over the world and there are often terrible justifications for those terrible things. Dropping people off of tall buildings for any reason is terrible. Is that not true?
I think when people criticize a group of people for doing terrible things, and ignore the terrible things their own group of people does, the hypocrisy should absolutely be called out. When people criticize "the other," for things their in group is doing, I think its downright dangerous not to call it out.
What is my own group in this case that is somehow comparable to Islam as a politically informing ideology? This should be good...
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vegimo
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I think that the terrible things they do deserve criticism unconditionally. The terrible things other groups do deserve criticism as well, but tit for tat is unnecessary.
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Seneca
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quote:
We absolutely do not know how many French people support ISIS throwing gays off of high buildings for being gay.

The poll was conducted in July, "before the group released a video of an apparently British jihadist executing American journalist James Foley."

ISIS had slaughtered many thousands before that. We know it. We know that the media reported to the French about it. Slaughtering thousands is numerically worse than executing dozens. So by that time Islamic State had done something quantitatively worse than executing a few dozen gays in form of slaughtering thousands and the French already knew about it. You are wrong.

quote:
We still don't know what questions were asked in that poll - whether they were "soft" questions designed to elicit a favorable response, or actual direct questions asking if people straight-up support ISIS.

Who cares? If there were polls that asked "soft questions" about Mao or Stalin after they had massacres tons of people would it matter? No! Any civilized person who was informed of what Islamic State was doing should reject every aspect of them, period. And the French were WELL-informed.

quote:
It is exceptionally easy to believe that French people would change their views of ISIS after the attack on Charlie Hebdo. When the violence is directed at a target close to you, you will tend to like it less.
Why should the French as an "enlightened" people hate Islamic State more just because they killed 20+ French people when Islamic State had already massacred tens of thousands? Wouldn't that be a rather selfish point of view?
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vegimo
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Yes, it would be a selfish point of view. People are selfish.

We ABSOLUTELY DO NOT KNOW how many French people support ISIS throwing gays off of high buildings for being gay. The ONLY way we would know the answer to that particular question would be to ask that particular question.

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vegimo
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I am also curious whether you just stated that ANY TRUE FRENCH CITIZEN (not quite "no true Scotsman", but close enough), would have known everything about ISIS back in August, enough to reject "every aspect of them."
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Seneca
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We know enough about French media saturation to know enough of them should have known about it for ISIS not to poll so well.

30% of 18-24 year olds, a typically hyper-informed and extra media saturated demographic. . Think about that.

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NobleHunter
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Why do you think so many French sympathise with ISIS? Do you really think they're all a pack of Islamists out to set up a European Caliphate? That they want to enforce a particularly rigid ideology of Islam on everyone else?

Or might their sympathy have more to do with ISIS's opponents than ISIS itself?

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Seneca
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If you're suggesting that because the US is Islamic State's opponent that that is somehow an explanation for why the French people sympathize with these murderers then that just paints the French as even more sick and depraved. I'll assume you weren't making that point.
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yossarian22c
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ISIS is most directly fighting the Syrian and Iraqi governments. I'm pretty sure that is who NobleHunter was referring to by ISIS's opponents.
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NobleHunter
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I don't think US=Evil explains the results of the poll. Not to mention, ISIS doesn't actually spend a lot of time fighting the US. Being kind of hard to reach them and all.

Why do you think so many French sympathize with ISIS?

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Wayward Son
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quote:
What is my own group in this case that is somehow comparable to Islam as a politically informing ideology? This should be good...
More interesting to me is why you think ISIS is somehow representative of Islam as a whole.
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Lloyd Perna
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
Considering American Christians have been trying to convince African countries to institute the death penalty for homosexuals, do you think this is a exclusively a problem with Islam?

What? Source please.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
What is my own group in this case that is somehow comparable to Islam as a politically informing ideology? This should be good...
More interesting to me is why you think ISIS is somehow representative of Islam as a whole.
Considering that Islamic State is gigantic as well as other Islamic terrorist groups out there compared to tiny, miniscule comparable groups that attempt to identify with other religions that one might try to bring up, it's entirely arguable to suggest that Islamic State is fairly representative of Islam.

Add to that that the MAJORITY of the earth's Muslims live in countries that impose Sharia Law that is almost as barbaric and cruel as what some of what Islamic State does and it strengthens this argument further.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
Considering American Christians have been trying to convince African countries to institute the death penalty for homosexuals, do you think this is a exclusively a problem with Islam?

Considering that American Atheists have been successfully murdering Christian children in their classrooms and in church, do you think this is exclusively a problem with religion?

Got any more unfounded blood libels for us, PSRT?

(Has Seneca ever self identified as Christian? I don't think so. Blood libeling Christianity to smack Seneca is almost as silly as Velcro bashing the bible to smack Seeking Prometheus. OTOH, Velcro's allegation, like.mine but unlike yours, has support of actual facts rather than whispers in Atheist back rooms).

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Pete at Home
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Don't get me wrong,PSRT, I actually agree with the point that I think you were trying to make about Seneca's attacks on Islam. But a valid and honorable conclusion need not be established with murder-inspiring falsehoods.
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Pete at Home
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Check out all the flag burning demonstrations in the Muslim world right now protesting western freedom of speech. Demanding that western governments curb our freedom to speak, write and draw in any way that offends them.

Whether they agree with Isis or not, that's still varelse.

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DonaldD
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I'm not sure just how unfounded PSRT's observation actually is. There are unquestionably radical evangelical Christians active in promoting anti-homosexual policies in sub-Saharan Africa (principally Uganda, though in other countries as well) and there have been laws written and passed providing for the death penalty for convicted gays.

Getting from supporting the criminalization of gayness to the death penalty is a leap, but a relatively small one considering the public rhetoric of some of these wack jobs. At what point does yelling fire in a crowded theatre rise to the level of endangering people?

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Pete at Home
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"

posted January 19, 2015 08:44 PM                       
I'm not sure just how unfounded PSRT's observation actually is. There are unquestionably radical evangelical Christians active in promoting anti-homosexual policies in sub-Saharan Africa (principally Uganda, though in other countries as well) and there have been laws written and passed providing for the death penalty for convicted gays"

No, you aren't sure, and PSRT doesn't have any facts either actually establish that ANY "american Christian" has specifically supported the death penalty for punishment for homosexuality in Africa. But absence of facts never stops cultural lefties from hurling murderous accusations.

You and EV would probably characterize my distinction between legal same sex unions and actually changing the defijition of marriage as "anti gay.". But I don't support criminalizing homosexual acts. Card at one point supported keeping sodomy laws on the books but he has never supported imprisonment let alone execution of gays. Your jump from anti-gay to murderously anti gay is a dangerous fallacy.

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DonaldD
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Pete, you should really read up on Scott Lively. There is no question Lively supported the criminalization of homosexuality in Uganda, and no, he in no way embodies mainstream Christianity anywhere - his writings include a book that argues the holocaust was orchestrated by gays in the third reich, angry with Judaism for its condemnation of homosexuality.
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Pete at Home
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I suspect There's more arguable evidence that the holocaust was orchestrated by third Reich gays (I'm sure we can find at least two or three) than there is to support Ev's thesis that "American Christians" [sic] helped persuade some African countries to executegays. Roem at least laid the foundation for the holocaust by organizing the SA, who carried out Kryatalnacht, neh? Section 175 was primarily aimed at eliminating Roem's followers from the Nazi party during the night of long knives; it was an internal political purge. And no I didn't read this from anti-gay sources. Where is Richard Dey when you need him?
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Pete at Home
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Oops. I erred. Krystalnacht was 4 years after the NotLN. So Form was dead by then.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Pete, you should really read up on Scott Lively. There is no question Lively supported the criminalization of homosexuality in Uganda, and no, he in no way embodies mainstream Christianity anywhere - his writings include a book that argues the holocaust was orchestrated by gays in the third reich, angry with Judaism for its condemnation of homosexuality.

Funny you should mention this, since I recently read an essay also describing how the Third Reich began as a sort of homosexual club as well. The essay didn't mention any relationship between that club and to the Jews, mind you, but mainly focused on the strange following that developed around Ernst Rohm. I'm not so sure that this particular point is much of a stretch, although the suggestion that it was all about Jews being anti-gay sounds extraordinarily facile to me.
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Pete at Home
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Thanks for the reference, DonalD.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/12/16/scott_lively_alien_tort_statute_means_lgbt_ugandans_can_sue_him_in_america.html

Even if this leftist description is fair and accurate, Everard's statement "american Christians" supporting the death penalty for gays would still be gruesomely false. Uganda's reaction to Lively's hate speech against gays is as unpredictable an outcome as the reaction of that atheist shooter in Texas to angry atheist rhetoric against prayer in schools.

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Seneca
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quote:
There are unquestionably radical evangelical Christians active in promoting anti-homosexual policies in sub-Saharan Africa (principally Uganda, though in other countries as well) and there have been laws written and passed providing for the death penalty for convicted gays.
So how many?

1? vs how many in Islamic State, Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Yemen, Lebanon, etc.?

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Pete at Home
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm
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Pete at Home
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Donald, while I acknowledge that lively's statements are hate speech, they are aubatantively identical to the anti amendment 8 commercial with Mormon missionaries invading a lesbiann family, saying the Mormons are out to destroy your family. The difference is he audience, not the message.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
There are unquestionably radical evangelical Christians active in promoting anti-homosexual policies in sub-Saharan Africa (principally Uganda, though in other countries as well) and there have been laws written and passed providing for the death penalty for convicted gays.
So how many?

1? vs how many in Islamic State, Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Yemen, Lebanon, etc.?

.
Pish. He doesn't even have one single American Christian who did what PSRT said he did. No evidence of actual support for thedeath penalty for homosexuality. Not to mention that the Uganda law, evil as it is, is rainbows of tolerance compared to the ISIS treatment of gays.

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DonaldD
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I come back to my question about yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre.

From Mother Jones (yes, another "leftoid" screed):
quote:
Lively, a 56-year-old Massachusetts native, specializes in stirring up anti-gay feeling around the globe. In Uganda, which he first visited in 2002, he has cultivated ties to influential politicians and religious leaders at the forefront of the nation's anti-gay crusade. Just before the first draft of Uganda's anti-gay bill began circulating in April 2009, Lively traveled to Kampala and gave lengthy presentations to members of Uganda's parliament and cabinet, which laid out the argument that the nation's president and lawmakers would later use to justify Uganda's draconian anti-gay crackdown—namely that Western agitators were trying to unravel Uganda's social fabric by spreading "the disease" of homosexuality to children. "They're looking for other people to be able to prey upon," Lively said, according to video footage. "When they see a child that's from a broken home it's like they have a flashing neon sign over their head."
The man also spent 5 hours on Ugandan national television describing to the country how the gays were coming to take Ugandans' children and break apart their families. He is also on the record "[arguing] that human rights protections shouldn't be extended to these "predatory" figures.

All this, in a country only a generation removed from the atrocities of Idi Amin, and nestled among the DRC, South Sudan, Somalia and the CAR. This area is one where rationalism does not yet have a strong foothold within the populace, wherein witchcraft is still a crime in many areas, where recent civil wars are still having an effect and where extrajudicial killings are still far too common.

In this context, even ignoring Lively's full body of work, arguing that the gays are coming for the country's children and should not be afforded the protections of civil rights is tantamount to calling for capital punishment for gays. I would not, personally, characterize it as "unpredictable". A better word might be "predictable".

And if you really want to talk blood libel, I would think that a man claiming that gays were actually the driving force and the philosophy behind not just the murder of 6,000,000 Jews, but also that of tens of thousands of gay men, well, I would have thought that would have tweaked your irony meter just a little
quote:
Everything that we think about when we think about Nazis actually comes from the minds and perverted ideas of homosexuals

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Pete at Home
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Donald, yelling fire in a crowded fire house is classic recklessness, not mass murder.

I agree that Uganda is a "crowded firehouse."

I am not defending the man on charges of crimes against humanity. And I don't know enough to say whether his speeches on family were the sole direct cause of Ugamda's laws. The article suggests that Uganda as influenced by the family speeches, not by the book.

But there's no evidence to suggest here that his goal was to get the death penalty imposed for.gays. the crimes against humanity charges do not make that leap; they say merely that he sought to restrict gay civil liberties. So Everard is making a logical leap that's even more unfounded and hateful than anything lively said. Albeit less dangerous only because we aren't in Uganda.

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Pete at Home
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As for blood libel, sure, if you grant that the leftwash about Christians" being responsible for the holocaust. Some Christians were, and some.gays were. Ultimately the holocaust had nothing to do with christianity or homosexuality; paragraph 175 was just the legal justification for the NotLK.
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