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Author Topic: Liberal principles and the Islamic disconnect
philnotfil
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Not from 2014, but in 2005 a Palestinian Christian killed his daughter because she planned to marry a muslim. theguardian.com

Honor killing is cultural, not religious. We see it among muslims, sikhs, hindus, and even Christians.

quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
Islam causes honor killings. Not in everyone but it significantly increases the risk of such.
Or that there is a significantly higher risk that Islam is in places where there are honor killings.

You have the causation backwards.

Christianity could just as easily accomodate honor killings if the culture wanted it.

Ok. List one present in 2014. Anywhere in the world. I'll wait.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
So all other murders are acceptable except honor killings? [Confused]

Why are we focused on this one, tiny type of murder? One that is relatively rare in the Muslim world? How is it so special, so much worse than homocide, fratercide, patercide, etc., that we ignore all those other murders justified by religion?

You're right, shooting abortionists is not an "honor killing." Honor killings are an abbertion extant in countries that are primarily Muslim. But how does it relate to Islam? How is it, that if you take away honor killings, that Islam would no longer be Islam? [Confused]

Way to put words in my mouth. I didn't say those things did I? I just corrected some erroneous statements you made and asked you to answer a numbers question. Will you answer it? Will you answer it even with the hypothetical that killing abortion doctors is considered honor killings?
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
One is a chemical process, the other is the choice of an individual
Both are chemical processes then. ;-)

There's no Sein without Dasein, philnotfil, no individual choice without the societal context. You want to exonerate one particular aspect of the societal context (religion) by talking about 'choice of the individual' as if choices comes from some deep seat of the soul where external influences do not reach.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
So you are claiming that Islamist honor killings in the US and Europe are rarer or equal to Christian honor killings in those same places? Really?
No, I'm saying that you can practice Islam and be a devote Muslim without honor killings and treating women as second-class citizens, just as you can be a "Christian" and kill people (like abortionists) and treat women as second-class citizens.

Honor killings and oppressing woman are not fundamental to either Islam or Christianity. They come from some other source.

As evidenced by the millions of muslims who don't engage in honor killings or treating women as second-class citizens.

If we can't agree on this reality, it is hard to have a reasonable discussion on the subject.

Bangladesh, third most populous Muslim-majority country in the world has had women as Prime Minister for the past 23 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaleda_Zia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Hasina

Indonesia - the most populous Muslim-majority country has had a woman president.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megawati_Sukarnoputri

Pakistan, Turkey, and Senegal have elected women Prime Ministers.

Kosovo and Kyrgyzstan are currently run by women http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Otunbayeva http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atifete_Jahjaga

The majority of all Muslims in the world live in countries that have, at some time, elected women as their leaders. The US has not yet elected a female president.

Women make up a third of Egypt's parliament. Women make up a fifth of the US Senate and less than that in the House.

[ October 08, 2014, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
So you are claiming that Islamist honor killings in the US and Europe are rarer or equal to Christian honor killings in those same places? Really?
No, I'm saying that you can practice Islam and be a devote Muslim without honor killings and treating women as second-class citizens, just as you can be a "Christian" and kill people (like abortionists) and treat women as second-class citizens.

Honor killings and oppressing woman are not fundamental to either Islam or Christianity. They come from some other source.

As evidenced by the millions of muslims who don't engage in honor killings or treating women as second-class citizens.

If we can't agree on this reality, it is hard to have a reasonable discussion on the subject.

Bangladesh, third most populous Muslim-majority country in the world has had women as Prime Minister for the past 23 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaleda_Zia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Hasina

Indonesia - the most populous Muslim-majority country has had a woman president.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megawati_Sukarnoputri

Pakistan, Turkey, and Senegal have elected women Prime Ministers.

Kosovo and Kyrgyzstan are currently run by women http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Otunbayeva http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atifete_Jahjaga

The majority of all Muslims in the world live in countries that have, at some time, elected women as their leaders. The US has not yet elected a female president.

Women make up a third of Egypt's parliament. Women make up a fifth of the US Senate and less than that in the House.

And the fact that honor killing still abound in those countries shows how indoctrinating Islamism is when even the female leaders accept it.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
Islam causes honor killings. Not in everyone but it significantly increases the risk of such.
Or that there is a significantly higher risk that Islam is in places where there are honor killings.

You have the causation backwards.

Christianity could just as easily accomodate honor killings if the culture wanted it.

Ok. List one present in 2014. Anywhere in the world. I'll wait.
Bruna Morito was killed in 2006 is that close enough? Faten Habash's father was Christian.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
But even if I grant you that it was equivalent, how do the numbers in the US stack up? One is greater than the other, and the numeric divide becomes even greater when accounting for proportion of population. Which one?
Ah, but you see, Seneca, you can't grant me that those murders are equivalent. Because then you would have to grant me that all murders are basically equivalent, that any unjustified, illegal killing of a human being is basically equivalent.

And you can't allow me to compare murders between Christain and Muslim countries.

How the murder rate in the Christian United States compare to Muslim Egypt? How does the murder rate in Christian El Salvador compare to the rate in Mulsim Pakistan? Which religion allows more murders based on those comparisons?

No, if you granted equivalence, you'd have to admit that Christian countries are at least as murderous as Muslim countries. Then you'd have to start looking for factors other than religion to explain it. Maybe you'd say that such murders are condemned by Christianity (as if honor killings are not comdemned by Mulsims.) Maybe you'd say that such murders are illegal (as if honor killings are not illegal in practically all countries). Maybe you'd blame it on the local cultures.

So, no, Seneca, you can't grant me that murder is murder. You need to keep your argument focused on this one, unique type of murder that is mostly practiced in parts of the world that happen to be primarily Muslim. Otherwise, you'd have to admit that people are a murderous lot and will kill each other regardless of their faith. And blaming specific faiths for that is not reasonable.

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Seneca
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You are attempting to broaden the argument into absurdly vague boundaries.

We're talking about killings that are directly inspired and caused by religions.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
There's no Sein without Dasein, philnotfil, no individual choice without the societal context. You want to exonerate one particular aspect of the societal context (religion) by talking about 'choice of the individual' as if choices comes from some deep seat of the soul where external influences do not reach.

Pretty much, except for the part where the societal context isn't strictly religious, it is cultural. My contention is that making that context religious is misleading and hampers communication.

[ October 08, 2014, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: philnotfil ]

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scifibum
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quote:
But while honor killings have elicited considerable attention and outrage, human rights activists argue that they
should be regarded as part of a much larger problem of violence against women.
In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient,
according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently
in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.
"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of
passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived
as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

You should read this, Seneca.
http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/212/readings/honor-kil-ng.pdf

In addition to the relationship between honor killings and so called "crimes of passion" in South America and dowry deaths in India, it's important to note that the Quran does not promote or condone honor killing.

It's just too simplistic to blame the phenomenon on Islam. Islam is sometimes part of the cultures where horrible things like this go on, but other cultures have similar horrible things, and Islam doesn't require or always include the same horrible things. We need to attack the horrible things, and using inaccurate explanations for the horrible things isn't going to help.

[ October 08, 2014, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: scifibum ]

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
We're talking about killings that are directly inspired and caused by religions.

That would include the murder of George Tiller.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
Way to put words in my mouth. I didn't say those things did I?
Sorry, I was responding to Aris' post. Your post snuck in between. [Embarrassed]

quote:
You are attempting to broaden the argument into absurdly vague boundaries.

We're talking about killings that are directly inspired and caused by religions.

Could you please tell me your reason for believing that honor killings are "directly inspired and caused by religion." Is there a specific line in the Quran that commands Muslims to honor kill? That they will be excommunicated if they don't honor kill?

I thought you believed it simply because it primarily happens in Muslim countries. But since it is "directly inspired and caused," I would very much like to see how.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Pretty much, except for the part where the societal context isn't strictly religious, it is cultural. My contention is that making that context religious is misleading and hampers communication.
In this I'll agree, but it seems that the Blue Tribers of the forum are trying to argue that all religions are created equal.

All religions are false, but there's no physical law that demands all falsehoods to be *equally* bad for the world -- there's no physical law that demands that Christianity and Islam (even if you treat them as pure scripture, not as systems) promote equally well or hinder equally well e.g. the status of women or anything else.

As I've said already, it'd be an awfully big coincidence if two religions were doing *anything* exactly equally.

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kmbboots
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There is plenty Christian scripture that is pretty darn bad for women even to the point of demanding honor killing.
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Aris Katsaris
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Indeed, kmbboots. That doesn't lessen my point.

Also keep in mind that the main difference that *I* see between the Christian world and the Muslim world, is that I believe the 'Christian world' to be only nominally Christian. The Western world is nowadays an offspring of the Enlightenment, not Christianity.

[ October 08, 2014, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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Wayward Son
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quote:
In this I'll agree, but it seems that the Blue Tribers of the forum are trying to argue that all religions are created equal.
Not so much that they are created equal, but all major religions are equally perverted by local customs and individual wants. Morality is no longer determined by religion (if it ever was); religion is used to justify whatever morality people (or persons) want.

quote:
The Western world is nowadays an offspring of the Enlightenment, not Christianity.
While the Muslim world is (for the most part) still stuck in a pre-Enlightment world, irrespective of Islam.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Smoking causes lung cancer. Not in everyone but it significantly increases the risk of such.

Islam causes honor killings. Not in everyone but it significantly increases the risk of such.

Yes to the first, no to the second. Honor killings are a cultural problem that is more associated with relatively poor societies. How many honor killings by Muslims occur in western Europe or North America each year?
quote:
So all other murders are acceptable except honor killings?
There are over 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and about 5,000 honor killings a year in the countries where they live. In the US there are only about 20% as many people but there are over 12,000 homicides a year just using guns. Considering what country and culture you live in, which "culture" should we (I mean you) be more concerned about?

[ October 08, 2014, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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AI Wessex
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quote:
In this I'll agree, but it seems that the Blue Tribers of the forum are trying to argue that all religions are created equal.
Despite the fact that religious adherents like to insist that the tenets they swear before their God(s) are divinely inspired, the principles and mores of all religions are profoundly influenced by their culture of origin and charismatic leaders. Nothing in Islam says that honor killings are necessary any more than the bible says they are. In fact, the holy books of both religions do say that.
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Wayward Son
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In case anyone believes it is relevant, here is an article listing various fatwas condemning honor killings.

I believe this strenghten my point that honor killings originate from somewhere other than Islam, since at least part of Islam outright condemns it.

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vulture
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Incidentally, central Asia and Arab countries (I.e. mostly the Muslim world) leads the world in percentage of PhDs awarded to women in the life science, physical science, mathematics and computing fields. North america and western Europe rate the lowest.
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Incidentally, central Asia and Arab countries (I.e. mostly the Muslim world) leads the world in percentage of PhDs awarded to women in the life science, physical science, mathematics and computing fields.
I'd like to see comprehensive data, not cherrypicked fields. E.g. it would kinda reverse the meaning of what you said if the reason educated Arab women go into mathematics and physical science is because they aren't allowed to go into law or medicine or business.

Moreover if you're offering this as a datapoint in regards to gender equality in the Muslim world, then let's have a comprehensive map of gender inequality around the world:
http://time.com/3131/this-map-shows-just-how-far-the-world-has-to-go-to-reach-gender-equality/

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vulture
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I gave the stats for hard sciences because they were the ones I looked for, because
A) they tend to be traditionally the most male dominated fields in our culture
B) that's my area of work, so I tend to think of it as the only worthwhile one. PhDs in sociology business or media studies might as well be in advanced muppetry as far as I am concerned [Wink]

I'll dig the source out and find the numbers for other areas (and cultures) tomorrow if I get the time. I just wanted to highlight the disconnect between the idea of Arab women as second class citizens with their bring the majority of (real) science PhDs. Of course the real situation is far more complex and nuanced that, but I was just objecting to the over simplification.

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OpsanusTau
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Nb,a PhD is not generally the terminal degree of interest in law, medicine, and business. Maybe you knew that already? Unclear from context. Comparing academic degrees with professional degrees tends not to be super useful.
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velcro
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Aris wrote
quote:
it seems that the Blue Tribers of the forum are trying to argue that all religions are created equal.
Wrong answer. Please reread all the posts and try again.

Here's a hint:
quote:
Note that you cannot interpret Naziism, or Aztec sacrifices, or possibly Communism in a way that actually works out well.
"Blue Tribers" recognize gradations instead of absolutes. Read the research. Sometimes that is better, sometimes not. [Smile]
So until you can get a definition of what true Islam is, you can't categorically say it is better or worse. If you pick the examples from backward, uneducated primitive cultures and call that "true" you get a different answer when you pick examples from more refined and contemplated cultures. Maher and Harris picked the former, without any real evidence.

Seneca,

Sure, you win. Honor killings are much more prevalent among Muslims. So that proves that Islam is bad...

How many Muslims kill abortion doctors, compared to Christians?

How many witches were burned at the stake based on Islamic principles, compared to Christian principles?

How many people were tortured by Muslim Inquisitioners in the Middle Ages, compared to Christians?

I just proved that Christianity is bad, right?

See how easy it is to cherry-pick types of crimes that are particular to a given culture that are really independent of the religion?

Proving that honor killings are more prevalent in Muslim populations without actually showing any connection to Islam is basically useless. It is not a killing that is directly inspired and caused by Islam, any more than burning witches is directly inspired and caused by Christianity.

So without the honor-killing canard, what evidence is their that Islam, rather than primitive traditions, are worse than Christianity?

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Greg Davidson
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Following up velcro, here's another example of an argument that makes a specious link between a religion and the actions that could be argued are attributed to it:

If the Germans of the Nazi era were truly Aryan, and thus their national religion was Hinduism, does anyone think that Hitler still would have placed such a high priority on killing the Jews? And if not, does that mean that Germany's Christian past is responsible for the Holocaust?

I just am very skeptical of this form of argument, and when it is applied exclusively to Islam it takes on the characteristics of bigotry.

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DonaldD
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Why is it unacceptable for adulterers to be killed by Muslims, but it is acceptable for witches to be killed by Christians? Or is everybody simply ignoring cultural practices by 3rd world Christians?
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Seneca
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Is anyone going to attempt to claim the number of "witches" killed by Christians in 2014 is anywhere near the number of honor killings by Muslims?
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D.W.
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How about if we claim people have lots of reasons to want to kill others and for some reason saying "God told me to" or "God wanted me to" seems more socially acceptable than saying "I'm a homicidal savage with no respect for life." Even more so if your society agrees with some of your actual reasons for wanting to kill someone and share your religion.
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DonaldD
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quote:
HOUSTON — At home in Nigeria, the Pentecostal preacher Helen Ukpabio draws thousands to her revival meetings. Last August, when she had herself consecrated Christendom’s first “lady apostle,” Nigerian politicians and Nollywood actors attended the ceremony. Her books and DVDs, which explain how Satan possesses children, are widely known.

So well-known, in fact, that Ms. Ukpabio’s critics say her teachings have contributed to the torture or abandonment of thousands of Nigerian children — including infants and toddlers — suspected of being witches and warlocks.


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Seneca
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Abandonment = honor killings huh...

I wasn't even going to go into Africa. You want to go there with Sudan and Boko Haram? Really?

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DonaldD
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So, abandonment and torture of children is OK, because it is less bad than killing, is that it? So by your math, that means Islam < Christianity.

Yes, 'huh'.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
So, abandonment and torture of children is OK, because it is less bad than killing, is that it? So by your math, that means Islam < Christianity.

Yes, 'huh'.

Notice I didn't say any of that, I merely pointed out that you are stretching the bounds of commonly understood words and concepts.

On a tally of those other atrocities I think we all know that the calculus is the same there as well in 2014.

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DonaldD
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Notice that I did not say that abandonment = honour killing, yet you pushed those words into my mouth, first.

Rather I simply pointed out, as others tried to do previously, that culture cannot simply be ignored as you have so far done. By bringing up Africa today, I wanted to provide a current day example of this point: up until then, others had seemingly made reference to only historical cultures with 'bad' Christian actors; whereas there are still backwards cultures practicing 'Christian' atrocities even today. You should also notice that your bringing up other bad actors in the same region ("Sudan and Boko Haram") actually strengthens this point, which suggests you completely missed it in the first place..

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Notice that I did not say that abandonment = honour killing, yet you pushed those words into my mouth, first.

Rather I simply pointed out, as others tried to do previously, that culture cannot simply be ignored as you have so far done. By bringing up Africa today, I wanted to provide a current day example of this point: up until then, others had seemingly made reference to only historical cultures with 'bad' Christian actors; whereas there are still backwards cultures practicing 'Christian' atrocities even today. You should also notice that your bringing up other bad actors in the same region ("Sudan and Boko Haram") actually strengthens this point, which suggests you completely missed it in the first place..

No you still don't get it. "Cultural relativism" is forever the shield that liberal ideology seeks to throw over foreign ideologies that do not value individual rights or treat people equally or attempt to allow for respect for a secular rule of law. I'm still not sure how you're missing it given the obvious demographics and statistics.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Notice that I did not say that abandonment = honour killing, yet you pushed those words into my mouth, first.

Rather I simply pointed out, as others tried to do previously, that culture cannot simply be ignored as you have so far done. By bringing up Africa today, I wanted to provide a current day example of this point: up until then, others had seemingly made reference to only historical cultures with 'bad' Christian actors; whereas there are still backwards cultures practicing 'Christian' atrocities even today. You should also notice that your bringing up other bad actors in the same region ("Sudan and Boko Haram") actually strengthens this point, which suggests you completely missed it in the first place..

No you still don't get it. "Cultural relativism" is forever the shield that liberal ideology seeks to throw over foreign ideologies that do not value individual rights or treat people equally or attempt to allow for respect for a secular rule of law. I'm still not sure how you're missing it given the obvious demographics and statistics.
You would have a great point if people were using culture to excuse these killings. No one here is. What we are doing is pointing out that these killings are cultural, not religious.
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Aris Katsaris
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Agreed with phil -- blaming something on the culture, and excusing it because of the culture are two completely different thing -- same way that you, Seneca, blaming something on Islam isn't the same as excusing it because of Islam.
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DonaldD
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quote:
No you still don't get it. "Cultural relativism" is forever the shield that liberal ideology seeks to throw over foreign ideologies that do not value individual rights or treat people equally or attempt to allow for respect for a secular rule of law. I'm still not sure how you're missing it given the obvious demographics and statistics.
Aside from the fact that nobody is excusing these acts, what is the point that you think you are trying to make? Try to be succinct.
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Seneca
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Again, my point was very clear. "Cultural relativism in this case refers to liberals attempting to use different cultures to shield Islam from criticism and scrutiny for its role here.
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Mynnion
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I think you are a little confused. You continue to attribute cultural atrocities to Islam. No one is excusing the behaviors you are describing. Merely pointing out that they are cultural rather than religious in nature.
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LetterRip
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DonaldD,

Interestingly, I actually emailed Pew research about a week ago and asked them if they would consider adding a question about killing witches to the their survey of religious beliefs and practices.

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