Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Obamacare designer Jon Gruber brags about dishonesty and "stupidity of Americans" (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Obamacare designer Jon Gruber brags about dishonesty and "stupidity of Americans"
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A new video has surfaced.

The video is fairly shocking as Jon Gruber, one of the main designers and consultants on the ACA, openly states some pretty awful things which many opponents of Obamacare have known for a while.

This video is from the University of Pennsylvania:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G790p0LcgbI

Some horrific quotes:
quote:
“This bill was written in a tortured way to make sure CBO did not score the mandate as taxes. If CBO scored the mandate as taxes, the bill dies. Okay, so it’s written to do that.

In terms of risk-rated subsidies, if you had a law which said that healthy people are going to pay in – you made explicit healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed…

Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical for the thing to pass… Look, I wish Mark was right that we could make it all transparent, but I’d rather have this law than not.”

It's fairly revealing of how this administration and the kind of people they consult with and hire feel about:
-our political process
-the American people
-what kind of tactics are justifiable
-honesty in general

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
People who are ignorant by choice deserve to be manipulated (or ignored).

Using legalese to minimize changing existing laws to facilitate a new law? Good plan, the more you mess with the more unintended consequences. Also moves things along faster. (Only half serious here, I prefer simplicity but that seems hopelessly neieve.)

The healthy pay for the sick? Shocking! Oh wait, no that's just insurance...

Lack of transparency isn't a threat, apathy will thwart most of those who COULD evaluate it critically anyhow.

The only difference between "this administration and the kind of people they consult with and hire" are they (or this person at least) are honest enough to admit their cynicism. Is it depressing? Yes, but not because of comments such as those quoted. It's the accuracy which is disheartening.

[ November 11, 2014, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And what does that say about an administration that proclaims itself to be the most open, honest and transparent in history?
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That it knows what people expect from a 21st century government and is willing to pretend that it meets those expectations?
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ScottF
Member
Member # 6897

 - posted      Profile for ScottF         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
And what does that say about an administration that proclaims itself to be the most open, honest and transparent in history?

Just kidding?
Posts: 177 | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
And what does that say about an administration that proclaims itself to be the most open, honest and transparent in history?

That in some areas it is no better or worse than previous administrations, while in many others it actively publishes vast amounts of data that had previously been hard, if not outright impossible for the general public to access?
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's the full video:

http://ldi.upenn.edu/ahec2013/agenda

He talks a lot, here, and has some criticisms of the law. He is rather candid about problems with it.

The upshot - this isn't that much of a "gotcha". Mainly because of this: he's a non-politician who doesn't really represent anyone but himself, so his opinions don't actually stand in for anyone else's.

Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Here's the full video:

http://ldi.upenn.edu/ahec2013/agenda

He talks a lot, here, and has some criticisms of the law. He is rather candid about problems with it.

The upshot - this isn't that much of a "gotcha". Mainly because of this: he's a non-politician who doesn't really represent anyone but himself, so his opinions don't actually stand in for anyone else's.

Nice try to compartmentalize responsibility for government actions. Reminds me of the liberal excuses for the mountain of regulations imposed by the unelected bureaucracy, often with no significant public input or congressional oversight.

In this case it IS a big deal since this guy essentially crafted the law while Congress had little to no committee time and he is bragging about how it was largely done in secret with lies and misdirection to sell it. It's huge that this ACA architect is admitting this. He may not be a permanent employee of the Obama administration but he was used by then for this so they are definitely tied to him and his comments are undoubtedly representative of their attitude and methods.

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
In this case it IS a big deal since this guy essentially crafted the law...
Hey, I thought that Rahm Emanuel's brother, Ari Emanuel, essentially crafted the law. I mean, that's what you said when you were explaining why Ari's editorial about not wanting to live overlong was in fact a way of sneaking death panels in. Did you mean that Ari Emanuel and this new guy essentially crafted the law? Or was Ari really just this guy's puppet?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Show me one bill over 1000 pages in modern times that is only written by one person.

Go on. Then we'll all have a nice laugh.

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Show me one bill over 1000 pages in modern times that is only written by one person.

Go on. Then we'll all have a nice laugh.

Yet you're taking this guy's opinion and using the fact that he contributed to the law as proof of how the Administration thinks of a list of 4 things.
Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, not entirely. You have to take it in greater context to include the leaked 2010 memo about them knowing the extent of plan cancellations the ACA would cause and in greater context related to honesty and transparency there is this too:
http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/16460.html#000000

So what we see here is a pattern of one of the most dishonest and opaque administrations which is proclaiming itself to be the most open and honest. Very revolting.

[ November 11, 2014, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Show me one bill over 1000 pages in modern times that is only written by one person.
How many people can "essentially craft" a law before the role played by each crafter is recognized as relatively minimal?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When dealing with sections of an important national law several thousand pages long, probably dozens, maybe hundreds.

From what I've seen, Gruber and Emmanuel were among the biggest fish in this pond, though there are certainly others.

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
So what we see here is a pattern of one of the most dishonest and opaque administrations which is proclaiming itself to be the most open and honest. Very revolting.
The disturbing thing is, what if it's true?
Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonaldD
Member
Member # 1052

 - posted      Profile for DonaldD   Email DonaldD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
How many people can "essentially craft" a law before the role played by each crafter is recognized as relatively minimal?
Clearly, that is a function of whether they have a 'D' (as opposed to some other letter) next to their names.
Posts: 10751 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I also notice about this that he specifically says that Obamacare was crafted not to be a tax and yet John Roberts said it was a tax.

I was wondering how the left would excuse, rationalize, and defend this Gruber when he basically answered the question many have asked all along which was did Obama know that he was lying when he was lying? The answer now is obviously yes, he did. And still he gets defended by liberals. In one way it's amazing but in another way we should all be used to it by now.

Posts: 7675 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
From what I've seen, Gruber and Emmanuel were among the biggest fish in this pond, though there are certainly others.
Would you do me the favor of listing the other individuals whom you consider to have "essentially crafted" this law, so that we can determine -- when other obfuscatory "scandals" arise -- whether they were important figures or just one of a thousand authors?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
From what I've seen, Gruber and Emmanuel were among the biggest fish in this pond, though there are certainly others.
Would you do me the favor of listing the other individuals whom you consider to have "essentially crafted" this law, so that we can determine -- when other obfuscatory "scandals" arise -- whether they were important figures or just one of a thousand authors?
In fairness to Seneca, I think your best defence of the ACA would be to locate another person who was as relevant to its crafting as Gruber and Immanuel, who says different things than they do. Trying to discredit the relevance of Gruber's comments seems to me weaker than simply demonstrating that there were disparate views and a lack of general consensus among the authors.

If you're right about the ACA then this should be doable. If Seneca is right that there were hidden concepts behind the ACA that were being deliberately obscured, then you might find it more difficult to find statements contradicting the ideas in the Gruber and Immanuel statements Seneca has focused on.

Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
But risk pooling - where low risk people pay in and compensate for high risk people - wasn't actually secret or a nefarious hidden design. Whether a penalty was a mandate-related fine or a tax is not actually important.
Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
In fairness to Seneca, I think your best defence of the ACA would be to locate another person who was as relevant to its crafting as Gruber and Immanuel, who says different things than they do.
Except that I am trying to establish who else, exactly, Seneca believes was as relevant to the crafting of the ACA, so that we have a finite list of people whose public comments on the bill can be interpreted as exposure of insidious villainy intended by its authors.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's so much easier to set arbitrary demands ahead of time to preemptively limit people's ability to argue so then later one can play rhetorical tricks.

Quick, list all Congressional aides and consults that had a major role crafting this year's Continuing Resolution! 30 seconds and then a cutoff to never bring it up again! [Roll Eyes]

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do you believe that it is "arbitrary" to ask that you identify the people who you believe are instrumental in crafting a bill before using those people to argue against the value of that bill? How many Congressional aides do you believe were "instrumental" in crafting the ACA, and have you been trying to get their opinion on whether it's actually helpful? If a majority percentage of those aides would not like to die naturally after the age of 75, does that cancel out Emmanuel's influence, or was he an order of magnitude more important? If the latter, who else is as important as he was?

[ November 12, 2014, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Funny, I seem to recall writing Jon Gruber's name several times above, in fact his name are among the first words on this thread...

It's not as if I wrote "mystery person who wrote ACA gets caught..."

In other news, apparently this is not an isolated incident. There is now ANOTHER video floating around where this same Jon Gruber is talking about how stupid the Americans are and how useful it was to misdirect and decieve them. I guess that makes his attempt to apologize for this yesterday an open lie.

[ November 12, 2014, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
In this case it IS a big deal since this guy essentially crafted the law while Congress had little to no committee time
And by "little to no" you actually mean "was actively worked on in committees for an unprecedentedly long time, while Republicans actively bragged about obstructing to committee process to try and make it take even longer, if not run out the legislative clock entirely"
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
From what I've seen, Gruber and Emmanuel were among the biggest fish in this pond, though there are certainly others.

Which is, apparently nothing but biased reports from people trying to sell you absurd narratives that don't actually have any basis in reality but happen to conform to what you'd prefer to believe. Can you provide any factual validation for your claim here or it is just a talking point that you're trying to treat as a proof by assertion?
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If someone says something twice, later apologizing for saying it is therefore a lie?

Please explain the logic, here.

It's obvious that what the ACA was trying to do was unpalatable to a lot of Americans. It seems reasonable to notice how different language in the bill could have made it even more unpalatable. Instead of income tax, call it "involuntary tribute, on pain of imprisonment", and see how it affects how it polls. Yes, people are sensitive to how things are presented. Shocking.

I think we can basically all agree that politics is a dirty business and that manipulation of voters is the primary skill of politicians, no?

I also think it's fair to question whether it is ethical to push through legislation that would not pass if the same legal effects were achieved without finessing the language for political palatability.

But what you're doing is different - you're taking off the cuff remarks from a consultant - ones that he isn't even willing to stand by, when challenged - and treating them as the gospel truth about what Obama thinks about the American people and the political process, and along the way exaggerating it to some kind of unprecedented depravity. (Very similar to the way you distort another man's feelings about how he'd prefer to age and die gracefully as proof of the true (horribly depraved) purpose of the IPAB.)

So we aren't talking about the ethics of politics' intrusion into governing. We aren't even talking about the merits of the law, and whether people are right to fear and hate it. We are talking (or at least you'd like to be talking) about how terrible Obama is, therefore the law must be terrible, based on how horrible Gruber appears to be if you take his remarks in isolation and apply a generous helping of bias.

[ November 12, 2014, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: scifibum ]

Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What a complete and total distortion of what I said.

None of these things happened in a vacuum. The leaked 2010 memo about how the Obama administration knew there would be massive plan cancellations but lied over and over anyway shows that.

What we have seen is that in nearly all aspects of this law, its proponents and authors have lied about it repeatedly. If you want to try and blow smoke and attempt to make this into just a personal attack on Obama because of some irrational obsession with him that you think I have then I pity you, because that is the height of partisan blindness right there.

Also, the notion that these admissions from Gruber were "off the cuff" are absurd. The remarks were prepared and delivered in an organized manner at a taped panel at a university, this was not ambush journalism that pounced on him while he was leaving the men's room.

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Who are the law's authors, again, specifically?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Please list all of the Patriot Act's authors and major contributors. Failure to list all of them within 24 hours means one will forfeit the right to discuss any major contributor to it later.

[Roll Eyes]

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
None of these things happened in a vacuum.
Indeed. Part of the non-vacuum is populated with the lies and distortions from the right about what the ACA does. Those seem to be part of the pattern you think you've detected, since you've repeated some of those things here on Ornery.

The whole controversy over "plan cancellations" is a good example. The right wing has made a concerted effort to portray any change in coverage, even when it's either a routine annual adjustment that would have happened without the ACA or even an improvement in coverage that can be credited to the ACA, as a trauma to the covered person that should be reviled.

quote:
What we have seen is that in nearly all aspects of this law, its proponents and authors have lied about it repeatedly.
That's an amusing charge, since you have insistently repeated that IPAB is going to achieve its mandate by rationing care. (There are plenty of things that can go wrong with IPAB other than this, but this is the one you picked.)

quote:
If you want to try and blow smoke and attempt to make this into just a personal attack on Obama because of some irrational obsession with him that you think I have then I pity you, because that is the height of partisan blindness right there.
I'm not a fan of the ACA, and I think Obama has been a pretty terrible president. The GOP opposition to Obama (which you invariably accidentally line up with, despite not being a Republican) is just worse, and more dishonest, and worth arguing against.

BTW, I think remarks at panel discussions can reasonably be called off the cuff - they are different from prepared speeches. I don't equate what he said with ambush journalism. I'm just pointing out that he isn't representing anything/anyone.

Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Failure to list all of them within 24 hours means one will forfeit the right to discuss any major contributor to it later.
When have I ever criticized the PATRIOT Act based on its contributors?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Which of the Patriot Act's authors came out publicly to gloat about how stupid the American people were and how deception and manipulation needed to be used to pass it?
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Failure to list all of them within 24 hours means one will forfeit the right to discuss any major contributor to it later.
When have I ever criticized the PATRIOT Act based on its contributors?
I believe that Seneca, by way of analogy, is suggesting that your request for him to provide the names is some combination of burden-shifting and trying to lock down a statement from him for the purposes of shutting down conversation at a later date.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, I am indeed attempting to nail his feet down to the floor -- or, rather, since I know that he doesn't have the intellectual honesty to engage in that way, at least make this clear to anyone else reading. [Smile]

I eagerly await the next time a liberal says something Seneca considers reprehensible when a liberal says it and it turns out that he was an instrumental author of the ACA. *grin*

Tom: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ November 12, 2014, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I believe that Seneca, by way of analogy, is suggesting that your request for him to provide the names is some combination of burden-shifting and trying to lock down a statement from him for the purposes of shutting down conversation at a later date.
The problem is that, when you're dealing with a law with "probably dozens, maybe hundreds" of authors, it would be nice to know who among them are the "main designers" and "essentially crafted" the law beforehand. Otherwise, it is trivially easy to point at anyone who had something to do with the law and call him one of the "main designer." I mean, how can you dispute that?

Perhaps a fairer question would be why Seneca believes that Jon Gruber is one of the "main designers" of the ACA, as opposed to any number of the other dozens of authors of the legislation.

Posts: 8681 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you're really interested in that answer, you could always verify it yourself by quickly checking to see what role Gruber played in the drafting of the ACA. I've done the most trivial of searches just now, and here's the first paragraph of the Wiki entry on Gruber:

quote:
Jonathan Holmes Gruber is a professor of economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he has taught since 1992. He is also the director of the Health Care Program at the National Bureau of Economic Research, where he is a research associate. He is an associate editor of both the Journal of Public Economics and the Journal of Health Economics. Gruber has been heavily involved in crafting public health policy. He was a key architect of both the 2006 Massachusetts health care reform, sometimes referred to as "Romneycare", and the 2010 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, sometimes referred to as "Obamacare".
If we believe this entry then Seneca's claim would seem to be valid. Tom's question remains, but nevertheless not stating upfront how many "key people" there might be in total doesn't particularly take away from the fact that Gruber's comments are relevant to the discussion. They may not be the end-all piece of evidence, but I think all that Seneca is suggesting is that these comments along with certain others suggest a troubling trend that he feels confirm a suspicion.

Whether Gruber's comments are actually damning to the ACA is something that I won't speculate on, however, as I'm not versed enough on it to comment.

Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Welcome to Ornery Fenring, where as long as the goal is covering for this administration and liberal policies, up is down, black is white and logic is whatever they say it is.

Also, expect to be called a liar, a coward, and several other choice derogatory labels with no action taken against the resident liberals while on the other hand you can be banned for not looking at them the wrong way.

Seneca: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ November 13, 2014, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*laugh* You were able to type that with a straight face, my little black pot?

Tom: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ November 12, 2014, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
0rnery
Member
Member # 398

 - posted      Profile for 0rnery   Email 0rnery   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Speaking of covering for this administration and liberal policies, how is the mainstream media doing with this story? I guess you could honestly say they aren't spinning it (like some forums who shall remain nameless), because they aren't even covering it!

"Nobody covered it. If this had been a Republican, what do you think would have happened?

Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1