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Author Topic: despite "white privilege" war vet w/o previous crim history executed for cop shooting
Pete at Home
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http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/us-war-vet-with-ptsd-executed-for-cop-murder/ar-AA890km

The facts read as the single most obvious case of temporary insanity that I have ever read. War vet with PTSD and no previous violent history flips out yells at cop to shoot him.

His last words prior to his execution this week were an apology to the family of his victim.

Oh ye preachers of white privilege, what did white privilege accomplish for Mr. Brennan, other than less media coverage and interest in his case?

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Pyrtolin
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Maybe you should actually listen to what people have tried to tell you about what the phase means instead of making up your own meanings and asking bogus questions based on them.

Where do we see it in play here? There is the fact that his behavoir is being attributed to being someone with PTSD, and not being characterized as a product of "white" culture. No one is going to use this as justification to cross the street when they see a white guy coming toward them out of fear that they'll flip out in a similar way. Those elements of respect for individuality are both elements of privilege that come from being part of the majorian/empowered group.

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

Where do we see it in play here? There is the fact that his behavoir is being attributed to being someone with PTSD, and not being characterized as a product of "white" culture. No one is going to use this as justification to cross the street when they see a white guy coming toward them out of fear that they'll flip out in a similar way. Those elements of respect for individuality are both elements of privilege that come from being part of the majorian/empowered group.

You're losing a lot of credibility with comments like this one. If some people feel the need to cross the street to avoid a black person, it isn't because they saw some extreme event on the news and that they later use that event as some kind of 'justification.' That's just plain dumb. In fact, the entire nature of pure prejudice is that it is never justified by real facts.

It's also insulting that you think the assumption of the cause being PTSD is due to the privileged notion that it can't be from white culture. Did you consider that his lawyers argued that it was from PTSD because...they're the guy's damn lawyers?? His behavior isn't "being attributed to being some with PTSD" by anyone, it was an argument made by council, and for that matter, he was executed anyhow. But no, I'm sure you're right that the lawyers should have been more sensitive to white privilege and told the supreme court that their client deserved no better treatment than any criminal due to his skin color. "Your honor, as a show of goodwill towards racial sensitivity our client waives his right to privilege, and he'll understand if you decide to execute him."

Did you even read the article? For someone who claims to believe in the cause of fighting racism you sometimes make statements that do little except discredit that cause altogether.

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philnotfil
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I don't think even the most hardcore proponents of white privilege would say that it means bad things don't ever happen to white people. Only that bad things are less likely to happen to white people.
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Pete at Home
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Glad to see you crawl from under the charlie hebdo rock, pyr.

My point is that it makes no effing difference what you or other gated community lefties mean by "white privilege." What matters is how your smug terms translate to magnify existing injustices on the street, in the courtroom, on the street, and in the welfare office. For every innocent man convicted or beaten up or (like my son) strangled in the bathroom because of a presumption and resentment of white privilege, for every white needy family denied food stamps because of how the social workers interpret your white privilege bromide, there is blood on your hands.
t

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
I don't think even the most hardcore proponents of white privilege would say that it means bad things don't ever happen to white people. Only that bad things are less likely to happen to white people.

I didn't say they said that.

I am saying that due to the current blather about "white privilege," this man's case would have received media attention BEFORE he was snuffed. This sort of media attention is a critical part of the process to stop capital punishment from being over exercised. Race mongering has short circuited this safeguard.

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Pete at Home
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Consider the sentence commutation of gloating cop-killer mumia al Jamal?
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Pete at Home
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" Where do we see it in play here? There is the fact that his behavoir is being attributed to being someone with PTSD, and not being characterized as a product of "white" culture"

Wow, pyr, wow.

I am on a cell phone. Will someone please quote the case facts from the article to illustrate just how race-baiting pyr's last statement was?

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Pete at Home
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" of "malice murder."

A dashboard police camera recorded Dinkheller's death on January 12, 1998, after the officer stopped Brannan for speeding.

The video shows Brannan dancing and yelling insults at the officer before taunting the officer to kill him, according to court documents.

Brannan then reached into his car and pulled out a gun, shooting the officer nine times, including once at close range.

The Georgia Supreme Court reinstated Brannan's death sentence in 2008 after a lower court judge struck it down."

So in Pyrlandia, what's the "white privilege"? Dancing on freeways and begging cops to kill you? Or the special inborn white ability to take a bullet to the guts and keep shooting without the benefit of PCP. (Oh wait, maybe that's the PTSD, you think?) Or are you saying the cop intentionally missed vital organs when he shot the crazy vet in the guts, because of his white privilege? Please be more specific. Because the way you use it, white privilege is a wildcard that can be used whenever you want to ream a honky.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
I don't think even the most hardcore proponents of white privilege would say that it means bad things don't ever happen to white people. Only that bad things are less likely to happen to white people.

I didn't say they said that.

I am saying that due to the current blather about "white privilege," this man's case would have received media attention BEFORE he was snuffed. This sort of media attention is a critical part of the process to stop capital punishment from being over exercised. Race mongering has short circuited this safeguard.

Then I really don't understand your point.

Because some people want to recognize that being white has some advantages in the US, this man's case didn't get enough attention for his execution to be halted?

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Pete at Home
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Phil, I have no problem with your term "white advantage."

There are times and places when being white gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being black gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being male gIves you the advantage, and others where being female gives you the advantage. But that's not what is communicated by the term "white privilege," and it's also not what pyr, Adam, and PSRT mean by it, either.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Phil, I have no problem with your term "white advantage."

There are times and places when being white gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being black gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being male gIves you the advantage, and others where being female gives you the advantage. But that's not what is communicated by the term "white privilege," and it's also not what pyr, Adam, and PSRT mean by it, either.

What do you believe is communicated by the term "white privilege"?
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Pete at Home
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What do YOU think that Pyr meant when he suggested that the war vet acted out of a sense of white privilege?
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
What do YOU think that Pyr meant when he suggested that the war vet acted out of a sense of white privilege?

I missed where Pyrtolin said that. Which post was it in?
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Pete at Home
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" Where do we see it in play here? There is the fact that his behavoir is being attributed to being someone with PTSD, and not being characterized as a product of "white" culture"

That.

I see "white privilege" and "male privilege" as shibboleths that allow the most privileged of liberal white males to act like tea party hoods with respect to disadvantaged white males.

Gee, if that guy couldn't get rich with all the privileges of being white and male, he's just part of the undeserving poor. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

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Pete at Home
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I don't recall anyone saying that Rodney king was acting out his "black culture," either. Comments I recall attributed his behavior to the temporary influence of PCP. Which was like meth more of a white people drug.
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Fenring
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To be fair, Pete, what Pyr was addressing was the notion that we accept that the vet acted badly due to PTSD rather than choosing to interpret his actions as being a result of 'white culture'. Pyr's framing of the issue is about our assessment of his actions, not his own assessment at the time. Pyr's point is that if he had been black we might have been prone to blame his conduct on being black rather than being a vet with PTSD.

Nevertheless his point was completely spurious and race-baiting, as in fact no one at all made the assumption that his actions were a result of PTSD, including the supreme court, who decided he should be executed regardless. The only people arguing that it was PTSD and deserving of leniency were his lawyers, which - no s**t, of course they're going to argue that. I don't think Pyr read the article...

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scifibum
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"White privilege" is normally assumed to be unconscious and automatic; "acting out of a sense of white privilege" is nearly an oxymoron.

To the degree that one is aware of one's own white privilege, one is noticing the relative advantages one enjoys with regard to skin color. It takes some work for most people to be aware of their own privilege (in the sense that is intended by the term "white privilege"). It ties in with the fundamental attribution error and other cognitive biases.

Like any term with relevance to politics or class, it's subject to a lot of misinterpretation and abuse. I really don't get how those trying to describe and deconstruct it can be blamed for anyone's crimes, though.

I think to the degree people use "white privilege" as a tactic to divide people and stir up hatred, it can be condemned. I don't see that though, particularly not from the way people use it here on this site.

I don't think Pyrtolin said anything "race baiting". He took up a gauntlet that should probably have been left on the ground, but it IS plausible that many people will interpret a case about a white man in different ways than they'd interpret a case about a black man, and be more likely to assume race or "black culture" had something to do with the latter. That's a problem, and I think Pyrtolin was saying it's a problem.

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Adam Masterman
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This link explains the concept quite well in an easy to grok metaphor: Straight White Male

Common objections are already addressed: follow up

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Phil, I have no problem with your term "white advantage."

There are times and places when being white gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being black gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being male gIves you the advantage, and others where being female gives you the advantage. But that's not what is communicated by the term "white privilege," and it's also not what pyr, Adam, and PSRT mean by it, either.

Actually, it is. Its an advantage, not a guarantee of any particular outcome. Maybe you are having difficulty with the fact that white advantage is more prevalent than "black advantage" in our society, by several orders of magnitude? Because honestly, if you are going down the "everyone experiences some kind of discrimination so its all basically the same" road, well, that's just ignorant.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:

I don't think Pyrtolin said anything "race baiting". He took up a gauntlet that should probably have been left on the ground, but it IS plausible that many people will interpret a case about a white man in different ways than they'd interpret a case about a black man, and be more likely to assume race or "black culture" had something to do with the latter. That's a problem, and I think Pyrtolin was saying it's a problem.

Sure he did. I'll give you three good reasons why that is what he did:

1) He described how the scenario could be an example of privilege, in a case where the 'privileged' man was executed. Even if he's technically correct this is a very morbid point and makes his comment look asinine. Any comment whose only real effect will be to annoy people on the subject of racism is race-baiting. The objective of crusading isn't to drive people away from the discussion or be divisive.

2) He described 'the perception that his behavior was from PTSD' as being a privileged assumption, even though the article sites no perception whatever by anyone, and even Pete himself didn't comment on the PTSD itself. Even the supreme court wasn't interested in the PTSD narrative since they ruled to execute. Pyr's point in this sense is non sequitor and irrelevant to the facts of the case. There was no 'perception' of innocence on behalf on the accused made by anyone at all, that was entirely Pyr's assertion.

3) Pyr misidentifies prejudice against black culture with any old preconception. For instance, we've talked before about thug culture, and how there is a perception of black thuggishness. So in the case of a 'thuggish act', like theft, drugs, assault, a shooting, etc, maybe it would be germane to discuss prejudices people have about black people. But in this case (the facts of which Pyr conveniently ignored) the accused had 'danced around' taunting the officer and daring him to kill him, and then finally shot the officer. This isn't 'thug behavior', it's lunatic behavior. Just as no one has preconceived notions of black people as being notorious for white color crime, there is also no perception of black people having a propensity for acts of lunacy such as this. If the man involved had been black there would have been no different assumptions about his culture than if he was white. Maybe in some other case, but not in this one. Treating any old case regardless of content as fair game for the assertion that white privilege it at play sound a lot like race-baiting to me.

Pete's entire point was that being white didn't help this guy. Maybe you can say that racism can't be inspected on a case by case basis and must be looked at in the aggregate (although plenty of people here are quite happy to look at any one case anyhow and show how it 'proves' there is racism). But to turn around and try to show how the executed man did have and posthumously still does have white privilege is just absurd.

In all three of my reasons I'm trying to make it clear that Pyr was too interested in providing a contrarian comment to Pete's thread just because Pete happens to be on the other side of the issue. It's race-baiting, although in fairness Pyr he himself may have been baited as well from the onset.

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kmbboots
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Given the current state of things, it is entirely possible that "white privilege" is the only reason he survived the initial encounter and got a trial.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Given the current state of things, it is entirely possible that "white privilege" is the only reason he survived the initial encounter and got a trial.

It's also possible this wasn't the case. The problem with the discussion on white privilege, as Pete mentioned, is that you want to use it to describe any old scene and have it show any old thing. If there is no clear evidence of white privilege, you're content to say "well white privilege was probably in play because it's always in play." I hope you see the inherent nonsense in this kind of claim? It's both circular and also too general to refer to facts of a given case.
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scifibum
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Fenring,

I would agree that you can't successfully analyze individual events or situations by applying what you think you know about broad cultural trends. However, I guess I must have a different understanding of what "race baiting" is, because I can't see that angle at all.

I do think it was useless and it was evidently counter-productive to try to demonstrate how white privilege played out in this individual situation. Both the question and the act of attempting to answer it at face value sway the conversation away from useful and accurate discussions of how privilege works.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
To be fair, Pete, what Pyr was addressing was the notion that we accept that the vet acted badly due to PTSD rather than choosing to interpret his actions as being a result of 'white culture'. Pyr's framing of the issue is about our assessment of his actions, not his own assessment at the time. Pyr's point is that if he had been black we might have been prone to blame his conduct on being black rather than being a vet with PTSD.

Nevertheless his point was completely spurious and race-baiting, as in fact no one at all made the assumption that his actions were a result of PTSD, including the supreme court, who decided he should be executed regardless. The only people arguing that it was PTSD and deserving of leniency were his lawyers, which - no s**t, of course they're going to argue that. I don't think Pyr read the article...

I don't know that Pyr ever reads as you and I read, in the sense of inductively seeking to construct a truth from the facts at hand ... rather than cherry picking and kludging facts to fit a pre-set conclusion.

Pete: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ January 16, 2015, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Given the current state of things, it is entirely possible that "white privilege" is the only reason he survived the initial encounter and got a trial.

Mumia survived a similar wound, bullet to the guts after shooting a cop to death (oh, sorry, after an unidentified "running man" emptied five bullets into the cop from Mumia's freaking gun) during a time where institutional racism was much stronger than in the 1990s when this honky was caught. So I'll have to call bs on that one.

Adam's the only crit here clever enough to avoid my demonstration of the pitfall of the "white privilege" bromide: the tendency to apply it irrationally and inhumanely, like a billionaire on a tea party tirade against food stamps.

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Pete at Home
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" I do think it was useless and it was evidently counter-productive to try to demonstrate how white privilege played out in this individual situation. Both the question and the act of attempting to answer it at face value sway the conversation away from useful and accurate discussions of how privilege works"

My point was to show how the phrase "white privilege" ****s with justice on the lower end. The fact proof true believers will try to apply it to every case.


"I would agree that you can't successfully analyze individual events or situations by applying what you think you know about broad cultural trends"

That's because you are not a fact proof true believer. Like me 15 years ago, you are still trying to use the concepts and terms of the left in a fair and rational way. Eventually I realized that the terms weren't made to be used equitably or rationally

[ January 16, 2015, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I don't know that Pyr ever reads as you and I read, in the sense of inductively seeking to construct a truth from the facts at hand ... rather than cherry picking and kludging facts to fit a pre-set conclusion.
You're stepping way over the line from simply making stuff up to outright personal attack here.

Your post was the fact at hand that I was replying to- despite Fenrigs completely speculative nonsense, you did explicitly mention PTSD- seeking some way to characterize the guy as an individual and not simply as a average, representative white person.

Your completely spurious misuse of the term in the bogus question that you asked only served to demonstrate willful ignorance of what it means- a luxury that you have because you're not at the short end of the stick or racial prejudice.

What makes your position even more absurd is that you clearly get the general notion, because yo effectively repeatedly accuse people of classist privilege- something that your economic situation doesn't afford to you, and that you can't help but be aware of on a daily basis as you try to fight against the way biases and prejudices against the poor put extra handicaps on you, but you refuse to see how the racial experiences of minorities parallel that same phenomenon.

Maybe instead of using the way you experience classism against you to derail conversations that aren't about classism, you should use it as a point of reference to understand the points being made here in the parallel context of race.

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Pete at Home
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SciFi, if white privilege meant the same thing to Pyr and to Kate as you (to your moral credit!) seem to want it to mean, then Pyr or Kate could easily have said, "just because there is no evidence that white privilege affected this case does jot mean that it never applies.". They aren't capable of parsing facts that way. If the facts don't show white privilege, then tweak them until they do.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:

There are times and places when being white gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being black gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being male gIves you the advantage, and others where being female gives you the advantage. But that's not what is communicated by the term "white privilege," and it's also not what pyr, Adam, and PSRT mean by it, either.

Actually, it is. Its an advantage, not a guarantee of any particular outcome. Maybe you are having difficulty with the fact that white advantage is more prevalent than "black advantage" in our society, by several orders of magnitude? Because honestly, if you are going down the "everyone experiences some kind of discrimination so its all basically the same" road, well, that's just ignorant. [/QB][/QUOTE]

After all your conversations with me, if you think that's what I am saying, that's illiterate.

I neither know nor care how you quantify prejudice in the whole of society. I can say that prejudicing people to pre judge racism as the reason for every human interaction not going as one wants, is the cause of much ****tiness in this country.

Speaking of **** on a stick, Adam, who don't you go read the Rolling Stone article on Volpe, the New York Cop who.got 30 years for that atrocity he committed on Abner Louima. Do you concede that Rolling Stone isn't exactly a right wing authoritarian source?

The Volpe case is where a young race baiter named Al Sharpton cut his baby teeth. Pyr describes Sharpton as an upright irreproachable civil rights hero. And everyone agrees that Volpe was Sharpton's most shining moment. Read the case facts and tell me where the evidence suggests a racist motivation. The torture is gruesome. But read the facts , and tell me what you would have argued if you were his defense attorney.

Is it healthy to presume racism wherever a white man hurts a black man? Might such a presumption not actually avoid addressing other issues such as the wrongness of wealth determing one's access to police and other supposedly public goods?

Jobs and good infrastructure, public transportation and access to equal quality school and police protection whether inner city or rich suburb, would do more social justice that any race-based correctiom. Painting everything as white versus black is just a means of pitting the poor against each other.

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PSRT
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quote:
There are times and places when being white gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being black gives you the advantage. There are times and places where being male gIves you the advantage, and others where being female gives you the advantage. But that's not what is communicated by the term "white privilege," and it's also not what pyr, Adam, and PSRT mean by it, either.
If you are going to try to tell other posters what I mean by a word or phrase, you should probably get it right.
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Pete at Home
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Get it right, PSRT. I didn't say what you meant by a word, I said what you DIDN'T mean.

Marx only knows what you DID mean, but your typically angry and c cryptic utterances have solidly ruled out the one that I identified.

If privilege was simply a matter of relative advantage, then left speak would not tweak words like racism and sexism as if they functioned only in one direction, from the all powerful great white penis at the center of the leftese universe, from which all goodness must flee.

So focus on total money earned by men versus women, & close ears and.blot out the fact that 2/3 of all SPENDING is done by women. Gloria Steinem has got to be laughing at that one all the way to her dead husband's bank.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
What do YOU think that Pyr meant when he suggested that the war vet acted out of a sense of white privilege?

This is a egregiously false statement. I said nothing about acting out of a sense of privilege- in fact the nature of privilege is just about the opposite- it's the ability to act without having to be constantly conscious of prejudice or oppressive systems.

The concept the the vet acted out of a sense of privilege is nonsense that you made up, and that I pointed out was a complete misunderstanding of the term. You description of the situate evinced privilege in that you put forth other possible factors that identifed him as an individual beyond race (in fact, most reporting wouldn't have even mentioned he was white because being white is assumed if no race is mentioned) it is unlikely that anyone is going to walk away from reading about the incident believing that such behavior is characteristic of white people, where as any minority acting similarly would not only have given a significant number of people that impression, but likely have led to at least some calls for that given minority to explicitly distance themselves from such behavior.

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:

Your post was the fact at hand that I was replying to- despite Fenrigs completely speculative nonsense, you did explicitly mention PTSD- seeking some way to characterize the guy as an individual and not simply as a average, representative white person.


I also think Pete's comment was treading into ad hominem, although I think it may have been more a reference to your style of argument rather than to your motives.

But I do find it cute that my listing of facts from the case in reference to your comments is being called "completely speculative nonsense" even thought those facts were used to demonstrate that you had failed to address any data from the actual case. It does seem to support the claim that you didn't read the article when you call an attempt to look at the facts rather than generalized notions as "speculative nonsense."

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
. Pyr describes Sharpton as an upright irreproachable civil rights hero.
No I don't. I simply point out your where you're making false accusations against him. There's a wide area of being human even as an expert in a field, that doesn't amount to being unimpeachable, but still doesn't merit false accusations.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
It does seem to support the claim that you didn't read the article
What does whether or not I read the article have anything to do with commenting on Pete's presentation of the article? That you're wrongly asserting that I made any comment on the case itself, rather than Pete's presentation of it shows exactly why your "evidence" is nonsense.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Might such a presumption not actually avoid addressing other issues such as the wrongness of wealth determing one's access to police and other supposedly public goods?
How so- the fact that minorities are disproportionately affected by such is racism that needs to be addressed by correcting those situations instead of coming up with reasons to blame minorities for being affected such because of behaviors and cultures that directly arise from such oppression.

In fact, it's denying that such inequity is racism- that it's somehow a just result that naturally arises- is what not only actively prevents such situations from being addressed, but actually creates ammunition for undermining the systems needed to address them because they can be painted as enabling such bad behavoir based on racial fears.

[ January 16, 2015, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
It does seem to support the claim that you didn't read the article
What does whether or not I read the article have anything to do with commenting on Pete's presentation of the article? That you're wrongly asserting that I made any comment on the case itself, rather than Pete's presentation of it shows exactly why your "evidence" is nonsense.
I guess I...rest my case? I suppose this means we agree, in a manner of speaking.
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KidTokyo
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"White privilege" describes a general trends. Applying it conclusively with reference to any one potential example is far too difficult.

Since we deal with likelihoods and not bright-line absolutes, there will always be counter examples.

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yossarian22c
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Those who are using the term can correct me if I'm wrong.

The way I understand the usage of white privilege is to mean the absence of discrimination and artificial barriers that exist for many minorities. I think classifying the lack of discrimination as a privilege is harmful to communication and for reaching solutions for the discrimination. The language sounds to those not read into the subtext as something needs to be taken away from whites to gain equality. When what I'm sure the people talking about white privilege mean is that we need to remove the discrimination from minorities.

I don't think anyone would be happy or we would be any better off if cops just decided escalate force as quickly with whites as they do with blacks. The "white privilege" would then be gone but no one would be better off.

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scifibum
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I think it's not meant solely to describe, in a package, the various absences of discriminations and difficulties, although that's part of its purpose. It's also meant to describe how that seems to affect one's worldview and ability/willingness to engage with those various problems that one lacks direct experience with. The latter isn't part of the discrimination, but recognizing and compensating for it can be helpful in addressing the underlying problems.
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