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Author Topic: Israeli leader denies the holocaust; no one flinches
Pete at Home
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http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2014/08/19/2003597786

quote:
Lehava spokesman and former lawmaker Michael Ben-Ari denounced Jews intermarrying with non-Jews of any denomination as “worse than what Hitler did.”
Isn't that holocaust denial?

It certainly looks more like holocaust denial than the infamous "detail of history" remark.

Ben Ari's remarks about the good old days of Auchevitz make you wonder what could have happened to the man that he hates Arabs more than he loves his own children and grandchildren. [Crying]

---

Edited to correct spelling in title -OrneryMod

[ April 01, 2015, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Isn't that holocaust denial?
Not necessarily. It may be that he honestly feels that killing Jews is not as bad as tempting Jews to break the laws of God.
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Pete at Home
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Thanks, Tom.

Hmm.

But Ben Ari didn't just say "worse than killing Jews;" he said "worse than what Hitler did." What Hitler did includes using Jews to locate and murder other Jews. Last I checked, that's against the laws of God, even the laws as qualified by fundamentalist Chabadnik revisionists who preach that "Thou Shalt Not Steal or Kill" only means "thou shalt not steal from a Jew or kill Jews." [Roll Eyes]

In any event, I think we should put him on the no fly list. The whole "intermarriage is worse than murder" thing is a little too ISIS for my tastes.

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Hannibal
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I saw the headline for this thread and I was like... WTF

Then I read the post and I saw its about Michael Ben Ari...

He is an "Israeli Leader" like the KKK leader is an "American Leader"

When using the term "Israeli Leader" one may indicate that we are talking about a leader of a large party, that has massive support in the population. In reality, you are talking about a very dangerous and crazy person who has maybe 10,000 supporters.

I bet the USA has organizations much larger that support Hitler

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philnotfil
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I thought holocaust denial was saying that it didn't happen. This appears to be saying that there are things worse than the holocaust, which would involve at least implicit acknowledgement that it happened.

Am I missing something here?

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Pete at Home
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He's a former legislator. Dude actually Won electIons.

Is The.Knesset really Like the Kkk?

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NobleHunter
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Considering some of the people who've been elected to office in the US, I'm not sure his presence in the Knesset really says anything about that body.

ETA: It seems Israeli leader can be considered equivalent to GOP lawmaker in this instance.

[ February 09, 2015, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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Hannibal
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I have to correct you here - he was a parliamentary assistant to a legislator. Not really sure what the technical correct term would be in english.

I am not disagreeing that his opinion is a disgrace to the civilized world, but I would not make an "Israeli Leader" out of him

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Pete at Home
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Thanks for the correction, Hannibal. Legislator/LegislativeAssistant. Or "Politician"
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Pete at Home
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Hannibal, do you know if right wing settler kids go around telling their moms that making them eat their vegetables is "worse than the holocaust"?
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Hannibal
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@Pete, I have no clue what crazy religious people tell to their parents, heck, they might even think the earth is 6000 years old for all I know.
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Pete at Home
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Oh? I thought only fundamentalist Christians thought that.

just wondered if "worse than the Holocaust" is something that's developed into an Israeli catchphrase, for whenever things don't go one's way.

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Hannibal
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No, unless the fact that I am somewhat removed from modern Israeli catch phrases kept me from hearing about it, I am fairly convinced only crazy religious zealots use terms such as these.
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Pete at Home
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I think that Seinfeld tells Newman that the Holocaust was nothing compared to what he was going to do to him, and I'm pretty sure that neither one of them was a religious fanatic. [Smile]
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Hannibal
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well... everything has to be put in context right?
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Pete at Home
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Have these holocaust-trivializing fundamentalists read the Book of Esther? Nice Jewish girl marries pagan gentile monarch and lives happily ever after? Was the story of Esther a Holocaust prequel? Does that make Purim a celebration of a holocaust?

How do these idiots get away with saying such loathesome garbage ?

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
holocaust-trivializing

Oh, I like that much better than holocaust denying, much more functional phrase.

This is definitely a case of holocaust-trivializing rather than holocaust denial.

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Pete at Home
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they called Le Pen a Holocaust denier when he refered to it as a detail of history. By that standard, any gross trivialisation of the Holocaust is Holocaust denial. Ben Ari's trivialization is far more egregious than what Le Pen said.
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The Drake
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I think an interesting nuance is the implied idea of a purified "master race" in his statement. Don't intermarry with those lesser people.

This guy is a real mensch.

quote:

In an effort to oust the Arab Christian justice [Jubran], committee chairman MK Michael Ben-Ari submitted a bill aimed at barring anyone who had not served in the IDF from being appointed to the Supreme Court.

[This is the same MK Ben-Ari who was caught on camera tearing up and trashing copies of the New Testament that has been sent to all 120 members of Knesset by Messianic Jewish leader Victor Kalisher of the Bible Society of Israel.]

But Israel would have none of Ben-Ari’s antics. The government, media, courts and people on the streets - Jews and Arabs - fought to keep Justice Jubran on the Supreme Court.

article
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Pete at Home
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I'm glad to hear that he is regarded as a fringe clown.

to be fair, i reckon if it were the opposite, palestinian muslim woman converting to judaism and marrying a jewish man, there would probably be death threats against her family at the least.

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Pete at Home
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Phil, check this out:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Some folks are even called deniers for asserting that more of the 5-6 mill holocaust victims died of disease than gas. at Auschwitz, I was told that most of them were worked to death and/or starved.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Phil, check this out:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Some folks are even called deniers for asserting that more of the 5-6 mill holocaust victims died of disease than gas. at Auschwitz, I was told that most of them were worked to death and/or starved.

That is a bizarre twisting of word meanings, but still doesn't seem applicable to Michael Ben-Ari.

From the wiki:
quote:
Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews in the Holocaust during World War II.[1][2] Holocaust denial includes any of the following claims: that Nazi Germany's Final Solution policy aimed only at deporting Jews from the Reich, and included no policy to exterminate Jews; that Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews; and that the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Phil, check this out:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Some folks are even called deniers for asserting that more of the 5-6 mill holocaust victims died of disease than gas. at Auschwitz, I was told that most of them were worked to death and/or starved.

Of the various Holocaust denials I've seen, one of the more common versions is that Jews died there, but not from gas chambers.
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Pete at Home
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why is that "holocaust denial?"

it's incontrovertable that some died of cyclon b gas (and fewer others from carbon monoxide). at auschevitz i saw about ten cubic feet of human hair all the same color; the sign said it had been colored by cyclon b exposure. but the gassing was a less painful and horiffic death than the fate of most, beaten shot starved and intentionally worked to a slow death in the cold. seems to me that what ben ari said is more like holocaust denial than those twits that deny the gas chambers but acknowledge the deaths.

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
holocaust-trivializing

Oh, I like that much better than holocaust denying, much more functional phrase.

This is definitely a case of holocaust-trivializing rather than holocaust denial.

After a decade or two of the American left trivializing the holocaust and Nazis, it seems to be taking hold in Israel. Sad.
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philnotfil
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Maybe I'm not understanding the words being used here.

Denial- the action of declaring something to be untrue.

Trivializing- make (something) seem less important, significant, or complex than it really is.

Can someone tell me where I am going wrong? His remarks seem to be making the holocaust less important than it really is, not saying that it didn't happen or that any of the particular details are untrue.

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
why is that "holocaust denial?"

Basically there is a standard narrative that is the mainstream view on Holocaust details. Denying any one of the facets of the narrative is usually called Holocaust denial. For instance if I said something like "the Nazis shot, starves and burned Jews, but never really gassed them" this statement would brand me as a Holocaust denier. That's just the way the term is bandied about.
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seagull
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The comparison between Lehava (Ben Ari's organization of which he is one of the leaders) and the KKK is useful to the extent that they are both pariah marginalized groups. However, to my knowledge, Lehava does not openly call for lynching of Arabs as the KKK did.

The timing and phrasing of the quote so close to passover makes me think that Ben Ari was trying to capitalize on a portion of the traditional Seder service in which the Talmudic texts claims that Laban (who tried to assimilate Jacob) was worse than Pharaoh who "only" killed the male babies.

The argument he is trying to make is that from a historical perspective - assimilation of Jews is worse than mass murder. It is not a denial of the mass murders.

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velcro
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seagull beat me to it, but to expand on the thought-

Hitler attempted to eliminate all the Jews in Europe.

Theoretically, intermarriage could eliminate all the Jews in the world.

Since the elimination in the second case would (again, theoretically) be done through apathy and or ignorance on the part of Jews, it could be considered worse than an enemy doing it to Jews.

Again, no denial here, just meshugas.

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Pete at Home
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Alternately. He did deny the holocaust, but with what passes for talmudic authority in illiterate circle.
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Pete at Home
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" Lehava does not openly call for lynching of Arabs as the KKK did"

What Ben Ari saidcis as opem a call for pogroms and lynchings than anything the sheetheads ever said.

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seagull
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I almost wish the Pete was right about Ben Ari because then Israel would deport him for it. We deported Meir Kahana for much less.

Regretfully, Ben Ari is too smart to make such a mistake. He carefully chooses his words in such a way that any court that tries to deport him would also have to deport many influential Israeli Arab leaders for saying much worse things about Jews.

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