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Pete at Home
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They Could Sweep Northern Africa, driving people across the Mediterranean into Europe.

this could surpass a Nazi level threat.

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philnotfil
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Could. Just like they could have taken over Iraq.
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Fenring
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Anyone could have swatted them by now if they wanted to. If. That it hasn't happened means some people don't want it to happen. The question is - who? They are only a threat so long as certain nations are tacitly backing them, which essentially makes them a proxy force. I still feel they, themselves, are not a real threat.
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Pete at Home
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I'm baffled that you could say that they are not a threat.
they are a far greater threat of ethnic cleansing than ever occurred in Yugoslavia.

have you looked at the politics of nearby Algeria and Egypt?
Isis is already knocking on Jordan's door; now its knocking on Egypt as well?

ifEgypt Or Jordan were to fall, then they are knocking on Israel's door, and Israel has nukes.

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I'm baffled that you could say that they are not a threat.
they are a far greater threat of ethnic cleansing than ever occurred in Yugoslavia.

have you looked at the politics of nearby Algeria and Egypt?
Isis is already knocking on Jordan's door; now its knocking on Egypt as well?

ifEgypt Or Jordan were to fall, then they are knocking on Israel's door, and Israel has nukes.

If you hand me a machine gun, unlimited ammo, and don't have anyone oppose me, I personally would also be capable of conducting ethnic cleansing. The firepower isn't the issue, it's the lack of opposition. What made ISIS different from other 'terrorist' groups is that they decided to engage on open combat and not stick to the typical guerilla tactics. They are actually seizing territory and trying to hold it. Right at the start of this mess it was even said that once they opened the door to trying to occupy territory it would be their downfall, because smallish groups (i.e. not the size of a nation) cannot wage open war against nations with a significant economic base. They excel at hit and run tactics, and don't have the resources for prolonged conflict and open battles.

And yet magically ISIS hasn't been opposed by any significant military force and therefore has continued to duke it out. America has been reticent to do anything serious in the area for political reasons, and the Saudis have done more or less jack as well. Israel also seems to be quite content to allow all of this to play out, especially since of all people they don't have the political leeway to operate in the territory of Arab countries. Syria is definitely fighting, although it doesn't quite feel like all-out war, and Iraq was a shambles to begin with.

What I'm saying is that any serious nation with an army could have taken these guys out, and simply put, no one bothered. I still think they can be taken out, and still no one bothers. This makes me think that they have tacit or even covert backing from certain nations that are all-too pleased for them to continue their work, whatever that is.

Do you disagree?

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philnotfil
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Jurf al-Sakhar
Zumar
Baiji
Jalawla
Saadiya
Al Muqdadiyah
Kobani
Sinjar

These are areas that ISIS held as of October, but no longer hold. If they aren't being opposed by anyone, why did they just up and leave those areas?

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DJQuag
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Egypt has begun bombing ISIS targets in Libya after videos of mass Coptic beheadings were released.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
Jurf al-Sakhar
Zumar
Baiji
Jalawla
Saadiya
Al Muqdadiyah
Kobani
Sinjar

These are areas that ISIS held as of October, but no longer hold. If they aren't being opposed by anyone, why did they just up and leave those areas?

The opposition offered against them was initially around zero, and late last year become 'nominal'. So far it still seems that no nation with a significant military has decided to engage them in full-scale war, which means they are being thrown some resistance but not as much as is available.
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Pete at Home
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Fenrung, Your Second paragraph explains why your third paragraph is probably not necessary.

isis' political leeway and latent fifth column throughout half of the world, are precisely th e assets that make it such a threat.
the USA and Israel can't engage directly because that would trigger the fifth column everywhere. the countries around it are unstable and riddled with Isis sympathis. the terror is another factor. the Kurds seem tIo be the only people who have the cojones to take Isis on hand to hand.

and the currents already holding enough Isis prisoners to exchange, and that I suspect is the reason why we aren't seeing videos of Kurdish prisoners getting tortured to death.


I think that if this is a proxy war, let it is no war between entire governments but between elements of governments. I reckon some Saudi princes on it others not. hell it wouldn't surprise me to see some American or European corporations involved

[ February 16, 2015, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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if it came down to identifying countries with the means and motivatio to fund Isis, I'd look at Putin, and, Obama, and the People's Republic of China.

( Obama only because presidents of the United States since Ronald Reagan have a history of inexplicably assisting the most vicious Muslim bastard on the block. and also because he's demonstrably Sweet on the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the only Muslim organization not to condemn Isis.)

but here's the thing : we already know where all of Isis is money and weapons came from. so if there are mystery supporters, they don't seem to be doing much.

[ February 16, 2015, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Fenring
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Agreed, Pete. The reality is that ISIS isn't 'everyone's enemy as they are portrayed. They are definitely Syria's enemy, but other than that the other powers are either lukewarm towards them or else backing them in some silent way.
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Seneca
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ISIS is an elastic state. They'll ditch territory when it comes under attack and then go back for it later.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
ISIS is an elastic state. They'll ditch territory when it comes under attack and then go back for it later.

Which is why they spent so much in time and material and lives around Kobani?
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
Jurf al-Sakhar
Zumar
Baiji
Jalawla
Saadiya
Al Muqdadiyah
Kobani
Sinjar

These are areas that ISIS held as of October, but no longer hold. If they aren't being opposed by anyone, why did they just up and leave those areas?

The opposition offered against them was initially around zero, and late last year become 'nominal'. So far it still seems that no nation with a significant military has decided to engage them in full-scale war, which means they are being thrown some resistance but not as much as is available.
And with only nominal opposition they are getting pushed around. Almost like they aren't a significant threat that outsiders need to get involved with.

They are a regional problem, let the region handle them.

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Pete at Home
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when they take a part of Indonesia or the Philippines, will you Then acknowledge that they are more than a regional problem?

Wahhabism, the Muslim Brotherhood, al-qaeda, Islamic state... its all different parts of the same entity. don't mistake and fighting for differentiation. Nazism had its night of the Long Knives. Islamic state is just the manifestation that the disease presents when certain factors Are Just Right.

Sudan And Nigeria Are Next.

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Fenring
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Pete, it would be interesting to see what would happen if any moderate power decided enough was enough and committed significant forces to eliminating them. Then we'd see whether they are as minor (in the grand scheme) as I think they are, or whether those supporting them would ramp up the support into full-scale participation.

They're there because someone wants them there; they're neither self-generating nor self-perpetuating.

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Hannibal
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We will not need any help from the US fighting ISIS, leave us out of this and don't use us as an excuse.

Isis knows very well that if it sets it sights on Israeli borders it will be cut down well before.

Isis needs "tribal support" and "failing national militaries" to engage its targets, that is why it is very successful in the failed countries of Iraq and Syria, and why might also be successful in Jordan.

Neither key factors exist for them in Israel, and they will be obliterated. No need for nukes on Isis, come on Pete, where did you bring that one from?

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
when they take a part of Indonesia or the Philippines, will you Then acknowledge that they are more than a regional problem?

Yes.

quote:
Wahhabism, the Muslim Brotherhood, al-qaeda, Islamic state... its all different parts of the same entity. don't mistake and fighting for differentiation. Nazism had its night of the Long Knives. Islamic state is just the manifestation that the disease presents when certain factors Are Just Right.

Sudan And Nigeria Are Next.

The differentiation is in whether or not they are taking over other countries. ISIS is, the others are not. That makes them different.
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JoshuaD
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Link.

Read this today, found it informative. Can anyone speak to the truth of it?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
when they take a part of Indonesia or the Philippines, will you Then acknowledge that they are more than a regional problem?

Yes.

quote:
Wahhabism, the Muslim Brotherhood, al-qaeda, Islamic state... its all different parts of the same entity. don't mistake and fighting for differentiation. Nazism had its night of the Long Knives. Islamic state is just the manifestation that the disease presents when certain factors Are Just Right.

Sudan And Nigeria Are Next.

The differentiation is in whether or not they are taking over other countries. ISIS is, the others are not. That makes them different.

the shark's mouth eats. its fins and tail do not eat. and that makes them different. nevertheless, they are still part of the same creature.

without the Muslim Brotherhood, and without al Qaeda, Isis could not exist. without The Wahhabeasts, none of them could Exist.

if you read some of bin Laden's writings, it becomes clear that the whole point of that first thing he did, was to create something like Isis.

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ScottF
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The ISIS plan:

http://i.imgur.com/RkzGNZZ.jpg

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaD:
Link.

Read this today, found it informative. Can anyone speak to the truth of it?

Dabiq, Eh? Interesting.

the writer suggest that he's going to make some sort of proposal on how to defeat Isis ... So If We ... Drive Isis out of Dabiq, and then occupy it, then send Obama, the Pope, and the president of Turkey, surrounded by a huge army on horseback then isis has to show up in mass to fight us?

[ February 16, 2015, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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kind of sounds like a South Park Plot [Smile]
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Pete at Home
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what if, instead, we iradiate Dabiq, so neither human or horse can set foot there for a thousand years. wouldn't Isis have to pack up?
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JoshuaD
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Why is that ideology so appealing to so many people? That's the real question, as far as I'm concerned.

I truly can't understand how a belief system which calls for crucifixion and enslavement of its enemies can be appealing to that many people. It's just alien to me.

How aren't we beating this in the realm of public debate?

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Hannibal
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I am sure they will find a new way to interpret their writings to navigate around that
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Pete at Home
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Joshua, it worked for the Romans. fear and gloating over public violence appears to be a powerful combination with state religion.

meanwhile our own asinine state says " State Department Spokesperson Marie Harf told Chris Matthews tonight that we cannot win this war with ISIS by killing them. She said we have to get to the root cause of why people are attracted to Jihad — you know like poverty, jobs, etc"

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaD:
I truly can't understand how a belief system which calls for crucifixion and enslavement of its enemies can be appealing to that many people. It's just alien to me.

How aren't we beating this in the realm of public debate?

We aren't beating it there because we aren't engaging it there. The president refuses to acknowledge that this even exists. As long as he refuses it, IS will continue its successes.
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philnotfil
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Obama on who our enemy is:
quote:

So America is at a crossroads. We must define the nature and scope of this struggle, or else it will define us. We have to be mindful of James Madison’s warning that no nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. Neither I nor any president can promise the total defeat of terror. We will never erase the evil that lies in the hearts of some human beings nor stamp out every danger to our open society. But what we can do, what we must do, is dismantle networks that pose a direct danger to us and make it less likely for new groups to gain a foothold, all the while maintaining the freedoms and ideals that we defend. And to define that strategy, we must make decisions based not on fear but on hard- earned wisdom. And that begins with understanding the current threat that we face.

quote:

So that’s the current threat. Lethal, yet less capable, al-Qaida affiliates, threats to diplomatic facilities and businesses abroad, homegrown extremists. This is the future of terrorism. We have to take these threats seriously and do all that we can to confront them. But as we shape our response, we have to recognize that the scale of this threat closely resembles the types of attacks we faced before 9/11.

quote:

Moreover, we have to recognize that these threats don’t arise in a vacuum. Most, though not all, of the terrorism we face is fueled by a common ideology, a belief by some extremists that Islam is in conflict with the United States and the West and that violence against Western targets, including civilians, is justified in pursuit of a larger cause. Of course, this ideology is based on a lie, for the United States is not at war with Islam. And this ideology is rejected by the vast majority of Muslims -- who are the most frequent victims of terrorist attacks. Nevertheless, this ideology persists.

quote:
Today a person can consume hateful propaganda, commit themselves to a violent agenda and learn how to kill without leaving their home. To address this threat, two years ago my administration did a comprehensive review and engaged with law enforcement. And the best way to prevent violent extremism inspired by violent jihadists is to work with the Muslim American community, which has consistently rejected terrorism, to identify signs of radicalization, and partner with law enforcement when an individual is drifting towards violence.

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ScottF
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philnotfil, did you paste this as evidence that Obama acknowledges the ISIS threat and understands the strategies involved to combat it?
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Pete at Home
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no mention of ongoing continuing genocide.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by ScottF:
philnotfil, did you paste this as evidence that Obama acknowledges the ISIS threat and understands the strategies involved to combat it?

I posted this to show what Obama believes our enemy in the middle east to be, radical islamists. ISIS would be included in his description of our enemy, but is not the only group included in his description.

I do see his statements as a rebuttal to the claim that he refuses to acknowledge radical islam as an enemy.

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Pete at Home
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Well No. he sees the enemy only as violent radical jihadists. until they get violent he doesn't see them as Enemy. and he doesn't use the word Islamist. neither did George Bush Jr

Carter was the last president that didn't suck up to Islamists.

he also insists on describing Isis as mere terrorists.

well George Bush wanted regime change, and now we have It. Die and learn.

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Pete at Home
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by Obama's logic we should have let the Nazi's take Europe. the Nazis threatened America less than Isis does, and Isis could be destroyed with a fraction of the cost that it took to shut down Old Hitler
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Hannibal
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Pete, to be fair, in WWII, the Americans did let the Nazis take Europe...

You guys joined the war only AFTER the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor

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Pete at Home
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whatever we did, regardless of how many of us suffered and died, regardless of what we accomplished,, there are always those who will minimize, play word games, and sneer.

when you can undo what Nazis did to my grandfather and his men after the Battle of the Bulge,, feel free to lecture me about what America should have done.

[ February 17, 2015, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by ScottF:
philnotfil, did you paste this as evidence that Obama acknowledges the ISIS threat and understands the strategies involved to combat it?

I posted this to show what Obama believes our enemy in the middle east to be, radical islamists. ISIS would be included in his description of our enemy, but is not the only group included in his description.

I do see his statements as a rebuttal to the claim that he refuses to acknowledge radical islam as an enemy.

I think you see it like you might see a rorscach test. I don't see him mention radical Islam in the quotes you provide. Obama mentions, "Lethal, yet less capable, al-Qaida affiliates" so it sounds like he's still holding onto the Junior Varsity comparison because ISIS seems pretty capable.

Would this be from the same speech he compared it to the Crusades?

quote:
At this month’s National Prayer Breakfast, Obama touched off controversy by invoking ties between Christianity and the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery and Jim Crow. He added a layer of controversy by saying the Jews killed at the kosher supermarket in Paris were “randomly” slain.
If he thinks the Jews killed in Paris was a random act, it shows that he continues to identify the threat. The link I provided above is a entire article about how he refuses to identify the threat.
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Hannibal
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@Pete, What?

It seems I made you mad for some reason.

You said -
"by Obama's logic we should have let the Nazi's take Europe."

To which I Said that the Americans of that time did indeed let the Nazi's take Europe.

If the Japanese waited till 1943 for instance instead of 1941, all of europe and north africa would probably be in germany hands by then.

Why are you so pissed of off that answer? you know its true. I am not questioning that American soldiers fought and died in WWII - wtf?

Also, don't get me started on what the Nazis did to my grandparents on both sides and all of their families in places like Auschwitz and Majdanek

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Rafi
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Here's a good example of the way the Obama administration sees this. From Marie Harf, the kid that's the spokesman for the administration:
quote:
MATTHEWS: Are we killing enough of them?

HARF: We’re killing a lot of them and we’re going to keep killing more of them. So are the Egyptians, so are the Jordanians. They’re in this fight with us. But we cannot win this war by killing them. We cannot kill our way out of this war. We need in the medium to longer term to go after the root causes that leads people to join these groups, whether it’s lack of opportunity for jobs, whether…

MATTHEWS: We’re not going to be able to stop that in our lifetime or fifty lifetimes. There’s always going to be poor people. There’s always going to be poor muslims, and as long as there are poor Muslims, the trumpet’s blowing and they’ll join. We can’t stop that, can we?

HARF: We can work with countries around the world to help improve their governance. We can help them build their economies so they can have job opportunities for these people…

They don't see this as a Islamic extremist problem. They don't even conceive the idea that there might be a religious component that is embedded is Islamic ideology. To the Obama administration, this is about a lack of jobs in the middle east. They somehow believe if the economies of some of the most oil rich nations in the world improved, this would all go away. It's so ridiculous I wish it was from a Saturday Night Live skit instead of reality.
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Pete at Home
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what you said is technically accurate, but America could have sat out the whole War. Pearl Harbor didn't come out of nowhere. we were already in the war. supplying the British and blockading the Japanese. America was as responsible for Pearl Harbor as Japan was for Hiroshima we left them no choice and they left us no choice.
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