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Author Topic: Decimation of U.S. Naval capability
NobleHunter
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quote:
Foundational concepts do not need to "fully" explain what will nonetheless manifest in varying degrees of fidelity to specific application.
There's your problem. Varyring degrees of fidelity covers everything from "God will know his own" to smuggling Jews out of Denmark. You can't explain religious beliefs and behaviors solely by referring to the texts. The text is less important than the political and cultural contexts which surrounds it or the time and place in which the text is read and interpreted.

As I wasn't asking about "foundational" concepts in Islam but rather the specific beliefs of a specific group of people, quoting religious texts does not constitute a citation. So, cite, please?

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noel c.
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NH,

"There's your problem. Varyring degrees of fidelity covers everything from 'God will know his own' to smuggling Jews out of Denmark. "...

You are taking unwarranted license with cultural parameters.

Will you respond to my previous question; is a religious text relevant to the religion that produced it?

"So, cite, please? "...

http://youtu.be/N_huJDggNa0

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noel c.
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http://youtu.be/KT1i1L0lqD4
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noel c.
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http://youtu.be/92myDzAFgU4
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TomDavidson
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Why would you be surprised by that number, noel? Perhaps it's surprising that any atheists willingly associate with you?
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DonaldD
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quote:
It is hard in my mind to justify killing Iranians because I "anticipate" starvation for millions of Americans who will, in all probability, turn on their fellow citizens in a domestic war of survival.
I think you lack a certain amount of imagination here, noel.

Any EMP of the extent that you previously described would cause massive death within minutes and hours, as hospitals see huge levels of mortality, and as fires consume many unfortunate buildings and their more unfortunate occupants. There would also undoubtedly be some deaths due to electrocutions as well as a large number of highway deaths due to loss of power at speed, and even the failure of traffic lights at in-opportune moments.

Regardless, your argument requires that the Iranian attack would be so bad that it would utterly destroy USA civilization, but not bad enough that the USA would respond with any significant amount of force that would affect Iran.

That's a very narrow line...

quote:
Islam is fully consistent with the non-rhetorical application of its written tenents. It means what it says.
Whereas the USA is not fully consistent with its tenets, and it doesn't mean what it says? [Smile]
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NobleHunter
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quote:
You are taking unwarranted license with cultural parameters.
Um, what?

Not as relevant as all the other bits that go into making a religion.

I'll check youtube later.

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noel c.
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Tom,

I realize you are playing the fool, but do you know what cultural segment of western society Islam despises the most?

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noel c.
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NH,

"Not as relevant as all the other bits that go into making a religion. "...

What other "bits"?

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NobleHunter
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The ones I mentioned earlier: "the political and cultural contexts which surrounds it or the time and place in which the text is read and interpreted."
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noel c.
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Donald,

"Any EMP of the extent that you previously described would cause massive death within minutes and hours, as hospitals see huge levels of mortality, and as fires consume many unfortunate buildings and their more unfortunate occupants. There would also undoubtedly be some deaths due to electrocutions as well as a large number of highway deaths due to loss of power at speed, and even the failure of traffic lights at in-opportune moments. "...

Yes, it would. Are any of these subjectively discrete events perceptably equivalent to a nuclear attack?

"Whereas the USA is not fully consistent with its tenets, and it doesn't mean what it says? "...

Have you paid attention to the evolving declarations of Barry over the last seven years?

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noel c.
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NH,

"The ones I mentioned earlier: 'the political and cultural contexts which surrounds it or the time and place in which the text is read and interpreted.' "...

Your argument is becoming a little circular. Are you saying that religious belief has marginal affect on cultural parameters of behavior?

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NobleHunter
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I'm saying cultural parameters of behavior affects how a text is read. For instance, a text might command people to dress modestly. In some cultures that means nothing more revealing than a crew-neck t-shirt and shorts below the knee. In others, it means full body covering including the eyes and ankles.
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TomDavidson
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I am amused by the idea that "Islam" is some monolithic, sentient force capable of despising things.
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noel c.
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Odd... you think atheists have some monolithic opinion about me. [Smile]
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NobleHunter
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I thought maybe he was referring to some guy that he knew named "Islam". It wouldn't be the weirdest name out there.
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DonaldD
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quote:
Are any of these subjectively discrete events perceptably equivalent to a nuclear attack?
Are you seriously questioning whether the USA would consider every single individual and piece of infrastructure affected by the EMP weapon as separate events, and not linked to, you know, the nuclear device that had just been detonated above the country?

In future posts, would you be able to first clarify whether you are being sincere or are just pretending to be silly?

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noel c.
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NH,

"I'm saying cultural parameters of behavior affects how a text is read. For instance, a text might command people to dress modestly. In some cultures that means nothing more revealing than a crew-neck t-shirt and shorts below the knee. In others, it means full body covering including the eyes and ankles. "...

... But some Islamic sub-cultures are going to be morally neutral on the practice of homosexuality?

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TomDavidson
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"you think atheists have some monolithic opinion about me"
Well, no. I was speculating on reasons you might be surprised to learn that atheists did not share your positions and were therefore wrong. Since we know that you already believe yourself to be supremely informed on every topic, I found your use of the word "surprising" to be unusual, here; surely you would not expect atheists to be possessed of knowledge? So I threw out another possible reason that you might have been surprised by learning something you almost certainly already confidently believed: namely, that you actually knew enough atheists willing to discuss inspiration with you to constitute a valid sample size.

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noel c.
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Donald,

"Are you seriously questioning whether the USA would consider every single individual and piece of infrastructure affected by the EMP weapon as separate events, and not linked to, you know, the nuclear device that had just been detonated... "...

I question that awareness of a nuclear detonation would even be widespread.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
But some Islamic sub-cultures are going to be morally neutral on the practice of homosexuality?
See, this is the sort of thing where I'd normally expect the word "surprised," because there ARE Islamic sub-cultures morally neutral on the practice of homosexuality.
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noel c.
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Tom,

"... surely you would not expect atheists to be possessed of knowledge? "...

No, I assume you to be an outlier among atheists.

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noel c.
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"See, this is the sort of thing where I'd normally expect the word "surprised," because there ARE Islamic sub-cultures morally neutral on the practice of homosexuality. "...

For example... ?

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TomDavidson
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If all you want is one: http://theinnercircle.org.za/
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DonaldD
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quote:
I question that awareness of a nuclear detonation would even be widespread.
Why would it need to be any more widespread than the military?

These would be the same people who would have seen the launch of the ICBM, who tracked it into the airspace of the USA, who immediately informed the sitting president of the attack in progress, and who then saw it explode...

Seriously, just flag your posts: "Sincere/Silly"

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NobleHunter
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Women are for breeding, boys are for pleasure, and papayas for sheer delight? (Might be paraphrasing that a little [I have weird stuff in my head]).

You think no one would notice a ICBM launch followed by a meta-ton range explosion? Weren't you saying upthread we needed a carrier nearby in case we saw them prepping for a launch? We could see them in time to use a guided missle or or jet fighter to shut down the launch but not see the launch or where it ends up?

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noel c.
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Tom,

Could you be a little more direct? I don't want to fish through your link.

[ August 12, 2015, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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noel c.
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Donald,

"Why would it need to be any more widespread than the military?

These would be the same people who would have seen the launch of the ICBM, who tracked it into the airspace of the USA, who immediately informed the sitting president of the attack in progress, and who then saw it explode... "...

... And told the rest of us when, and how?

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noel c.
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NH,

"... no one would notice a ICBM launch followed by a meta-ton range explosion? "...

Not from 250 miles up, and from both coasts.

"Weren't you saying upthread we needed a carrier nearby in case we saw them prepping for a launch? "...

Actually no, I did not say that. I would not wait for launch preparation.

"We could see them in time to use a guided missle or or jet fighter to shut down the launch but not see the launch or where it ends up? "...

You are thinking too small. As I said earlier, you would probably not see anything.

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noel c.
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"breeding, boys are for pleasure, and papayas for sheer delight? (Might be paraphrasing that a little [I have weird stuff in my head]). "...

Omar Kahyyam does not constitute a sub-culture.

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Greg Davidson
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Noel, you don't know enough about ISR capabilities to effectively participate in this discussion if you think Iran could launch and detonate a nuke above the U.S. without detection
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NobleHunter
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What about Oscar Wilde? Did you know the quote or did you google it?

In other news, the idea that a mega-ton explosion would go unnoticed is sufficiently ridiculous that I'm going to stop arguing. Have fun with the windmills.

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noel c.
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Greg,

"Noel, you don't know enough about ISR capabilities to effectively participate in this discussion if you think Iran could launch and detonate a nuke above the U.S. without detection. "...

You need to follow the conversation a little more closely if you are going to interject.

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TomDavidson
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noel, the link is to a multinational network of LGBT-positive imams (many of whom are themselves gay) working to support homosexual Muslims. As you might expect, they advocate reading the Qu'ran with an eye to cultural context and believe there is ample scriptural support to recommend the view that homosexuality is not incompatible with Islam.

-----------

quote:
And told the rest of us when, and how?
You know, I remember a blackout in Champaign-Urbana about fifteen years ago. Our next-door neighbor, a real wing-nut, grabbed his gun and went running door-to-door yelling about Russian EMPs (because his handheld radio wasn't working, either, so it couldn't've just been the lines).

It seems to me that if a man barely capable of reading his own name had that reaction to two hours without power across six square blocks back in the early 2000s, there would be a fair number of people capable of concluding that an actual EMP event had happened.

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noel c.
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NH,

I have read the Rubiyat, and this sounds like something he would say. Oscar Wilde was a flamer, but not a Moslem.

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Seriati
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Greg,

I was trying to get through the whole thread before responding, but too many little things I've been noting. So apologies if any of this has been addressed already.
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
Seriati, what Obama has done with respect to the deficit is far better than what anyone imagined could be done.

I don't agree at all. I don't think the President has much to do with helping the economy, though they certainly can hurt it. But moreover, I don't think his policies have been at all helpful and have directly slowed recovery and growth. We have an "n" of one though, so it's pretty much reasoned opinion for both of us.
quote:
You can try to demean this accomplishment using terms such as "technically true" and "whopper", but anyone who remembers what was happening to the economy in 2008 has a different perspective.
That's just literally the truth. Not one of his deficits is lower than any deficit under any other President. It's not at all impressive that he's "reduced" the deficit from a year that was more than 3 times higher than the highest deficit ever before.

I get, that there was a crisis year, fine. But no props unless you reduce the deficits to historical norms (about half his lowest deficit).

Even if you "just" look at Bush, who fought an "unfunded" war in Iraq that "bankrupted" our economy, the average deficit (excluded 2009 for both Bush and Obama) he produced was under $300 billion. Obama's average deficit is closer to $1 trillion dollars (again excluding 2009) and his lowest is closer to $500M than $400M. It's flat out a statistical lie to claim that he's somehow done a good job with the deficit.
quote:
The Republicans were like deer in the headlights - don't pretend that there were active alternative policies the Republicans were advocating, they were shell-shocked. The Bush Administration came up with a 3-page document for the $700B bailout that essentially said "give us money and we'll use it as we see fit to bail things out".
I agree, Bush and the Republicans in office definitely contributed to the problem with ridiculous authorizations, however, it was your hero that turned them into the new baseline.
quote:
Take a look at the actual deficit reduction trends, the two biggest improvements since Truman were Bill Clinton and Obama, and Obama's recovery was even steeper than Clinton's.
Like I said, Obamas "recovery" is a statistical construction, and overall false if you eliminate the single year outlier you are using as your base. Since all he's really "done" is not be able to spend more and more money with a hostile Congress. He certainly has NOT given any of it back, without the sequester, which he complained about, he'd not even have the progress you apparently credit him with.
quote:
quote:
Pick one, there were more regulations in total, they were more complex and they had more scope. The cost of compliance also went up.

What I think is being referred to is the specific repeal of certain laws, but that is NOT the same thing as there being less regulation

How about the other extreme, when the economy was healthy and the balance of wealth was at its peak (as opposed to the imbalance of today). In the 1960's, government strongly regulated transportation, telecommunications, and banking.
Not sure I agree with your assessment.
quote:
Government determined routes and set rates for shipping, trains, commercial air traffic, etc. Media ownership was strongly regulated, television stations needed to prove they were operating in the public interest, and if they took a political position they needed to provide equal time for an opposing viewpoint.
There were lots of government sponsored monopolies yes, is it your contention that we have NOT benefitted from the results of relaxing those monopolies? Flight costs way down. TV costs, down, choices, up. Internet, wow. Telephone choices through the roof (and you don't have to rent your land line phone from the phone company). The fact is the poorest American's have a higher quality of life now than they did then, more comforts, more space, more cars, pretty much any material measure you name.

Equal time rules were a complete farce, and an absolute violation of free speech, not a model for a golden era.
quote:
Banks had strong enforcement of Glass-Steagal, and different financial institutions had their specific roles and government auditors to verify.
And like I said, you were referring to a specific rule in your claim and ignoring that what we really have is increased regulation (but different regulations) than the idyllic time period you cite.
quote:
If number of regulations are your metric, are you then saying that the regulatory environment of the 1960's had far less regulation that we had in 2008?
Yes, as absolute matter (not just numbers, that's a silly way to measure, though that's true too) and as a substantive matter the 1960's were less regulated overall than 2008. And it's not even close.

In the banking industry in particular, for every regulation repealed there were at least a dozen new ones, for every substantive easement there were at least 3 substantive tightenings (and some of them were absolute bears). All numbers made up by me, but complete low balls that there is zero chance were not true. It's an absolute joke to anyone familiar with the industry that you'd claim otherwise.

In my view, the absolute truth is that what happened in 2008 was the direct result of excessive and poorly considered laws and regulations. The fault is with the law makers (including for this purpose the unconstitutional lawmakers called regulators) at the root, and they were the alpha and the omega of the problem (and still are with their regulatory "responses"). It's just easier to believe that it was evil bankers than that it was the policies you support and that your politicians enacted.

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noel c.
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NH,

"In other news, the idea that a mega-ton explosion would go unnoticed is sufficiently ridiculous that I'm going to stop arguing. Have fun with the windmills. "...

I did not say it would go unnoticed, I said *you* would probably not notice it... Big difference.

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TomDavidson
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noel, on the other hand, would have started building a badger-powered communication device to notify the President of the impending emergency something like three hours before the event, because he's that observant.

-----------

quote:
And like I said, you were referring to a specific rule in your claim and ignoring that what we really have is increased regulation (but different regulations)
Seriati, it seems to me that if you eliminate one regulation that prevents banks from, say, just arbitrarily pocketing the funds of their depositors, but then add three hundred new regulations stipulating that they cannot buy specific brands of candy with the funds so obtained, we would have "increased regulation" in your scenario.
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Seriati
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Tom, I went out of my way to state that the substance increased as well. Are you engaging in a strawman argument for fun, or out of confusion?
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noel c.
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Tom,

"It seems to me that if a man barely capable of reading his own name had that reaction to two hours without power across six square blocks back in the early 2000s, there would be a fair number of people capable of concluding that an actual EMP event had happened. "...

I passed over your concession without realizing it. Thank you, even if your self-attribution is modestly cryptic. [Wink]

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