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Author Topic: Blue Lives Matter
Pete at Home
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The increasing trend of assassinating police officers who work in minority neighborhoods will have a disproportionate ill effect on afican americans and other minorities who predominate in those neighborhoods. Because burying and replacing dead cops will deplete funds from the country's most strained budgets. Because the most experienced and qualified officers will take positions where they are safer and more appreciated. But despite the predominant minority harming effect of these killings, some folks will still say they arent racist.. they have elsewhere qargued that racism is not about intention but about im.pact. but here, even when vulnerable minorities are the ones most harmed and impacted, assassinating cops who serve minority neighborhoods will still not be called "racist".
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TomDavidson
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quote:
The increasing trend of assassinating police officers who work in minority neighborhoods...
I think this is a bit of presumption. As far as I can tell, there is no such trend, nor any particular increase.
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Pete at Home
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Did you think. to Google? I was going by three stories I have seen online this week, but since you say off the cuff that YOU are aware of no such trend, then I apologize for presuming that news stories could suggest that a trend existed without your explicit permkission.

to clarify, is it your unassailable pronouncement that no cops have been assassinated under the whole "Black lives matter" just6ification? Or do you adcknowledge the assassinations and the motives but simply wish for the word "trend" to be smitten from the conversaztion? What euphemism would appease you, mighty one?

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DJQuag
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I dunno, Pete. Cops have always gotten shot. That kind of thing didn't start with the black lives matter stuff.

Do the stats show an increase in the amount of police shootings? Because otherwise I'm inclined to think it's just the media choosing to shine a light on stories that in the past would have been more local rather then national news. They're just responding to the political climate and the latest thing the country has decided to argue about.

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Pete at Home
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Assassination isnt the same thing as run of the mill cop shooting. Black lives Matter didnt start targeted assasination of cops. Mumia assasinated a cop in a similar situation where he justified it as part of some great war. Other terrorist groups have done the same. But those were few and far between.

Do you see any stats on targeted assassinations of cops (ie. Cops being premeditatedly killed as part of a protest against cops, as opposed to being killed to prevent them from enforcing the law), or being selected for death as individuqals rather than for just being cops.

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scifibum
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I'm reluctant to believe that there's an increase in police assassinations, mainly because it's the exact narrative that would most exacerbate culture wars and political polarization; in other words the exact sort of story the media likes to spin. So I think I'd need to see some data to believe it.
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Seriati
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Pete, I agree with Tom and the others, increased media coverage is not the same thing as increased occurrence. The media often chooses to emphasis routine occurrences and make them appear as if they are more frequent to generate "news" even when there is no news. What's the actual increase in officer deaths?
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NobleHunter
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Isn't that what happened with the fires at black churches? News reports/social media picked up a number of fires following the shooting in Charleston. Some people made them out to be part of a pattern but it turned out to be the usual sorts of fires in a sufficiently large sample size.
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Greg Davidson
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It's almost as if it would be a net social God to have the federal government collect statistics to facilitate effective policy discussion
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Greg Davidson
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Although I will admit I like the title of this thread.

I think that the problem, however, is in choosing sides between police and citizens. Those are the wrong categories. It's between those who kill without justification and those who don't.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
some folks will still say they arent racist.. they have elsewhere qargued that racism is not about intention but about im.pact. but here, even when vulnerable minorities are the ones most harmed and impacted, assassinating cops who serve minority neighborhoods will still not be called "racist".
Sure, because "racist" doesn't generally mean mean "anything that contributes to racism"

You do describe very well how such targeting plays into a cycle of racism, certainly, bt that doesn't mean that every element gets labeled as "racist until it looses its ability to describe anything by generic "bad stuff" instead of helping highlight a specific type of action. It's like deciding to call all elements of the water cycle "precipitation", including "evaporation" and "condensation", despite the fact that each highlights a very different kind of physical transformation or action within the cycle.

The bias in policing that lead to the backlash is racist, even if not consciously so. The reaction of withdrawing from minority neighborhoods in response is similarly so, even if nominally justified by lack or resources. Like precipitation- it's action from above on those below.

The targeting of police is anti-authoritarian, to be sure, but the prejudice there has nothing o do with the race of the officers, but rather their vocation and authority. It is absolutely an important part of the cycle, but it's akin to evaporation- water being sent back toward the top that dished it out. Calling it "precipitation" though, would only serve to confuse the issue and make response to it incoherent.

[ September 04, 2015, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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Seriati
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So Pyrtolin, under you definition of racism, would it not be racist to have less police presence in a minority neighborhood leaving minorities to suffer more criminal abuse because of their race, but also racist to have more police presence in a such a neighborhood since it implies there is connection between race and crime? Not sure what use a "definition" like that actually has.
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Greg Davidson
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By the way, in my comment above I was intending to refer to a "net social good" not a "net social God" (there is an autocorrect feature on my iphone).
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
Pete, I agree with Tom and the others, increased media coverage is not the same thing as increased occurrence. The media often chooses to emphasis routine occurrences and make them appear as if they are more frequent to generate "news" even when there is no news. What's the actual increase in officer deaths?

Right now, we are about average for officer deaths from all causes but there has been a significant spike in August as well as one last January. Both spikes have occurred around the assassination of a police officer.

The difference now is the encouragement being given by the Obama administration that stokes the fires of anti-white racism and creates an atmosphere where people can feel justified in attacking police. "Pigs in a blanket, fry white bacon" is the chant from the black lives matter movement. That chant originates from the assassination of a NYC police office last December where the killer said he would put police in a blanket.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The difference now is the encouragement being given by the Obama administration...
Can you please provide a quote -- even one will do -- that you believe indicates that Obama would like to see more people attacking police?

quote:
"Pigs in a blanket, fry white bacon" is the chant from the black lives matter movement.
No, see, this is also bull****.
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LetterRip
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TomD,

one BLM march - they apparently did chant that for a few minutes.

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TomDavidson
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Reportedly. According to Breitbart. Once. For about sixty seconds. And, according to marchers and at least one policeman in attendance, it was tongue-in-cheek, meant to tease a policeman who was engaging with the crowd over his megaphone; he apparently chanted back "everyone loves bacon."

I have no way of knowing how much of that is true. But even in the Breitbart video, it's pretty clear that we're not seeing obvious anger or hatred at work. Look at the crowd's expressions; these are not people calling for policemen to die. Now, were I in their shoes, I would be more careful about my chants; I would, in fact, have slapped upside the head anyone trying to start -- even playfully -- that sort of chant, simply because there's no way it could possibly be interpreted well.

But, more importantly: this clearly is not, in other words, "the" chant from "the" BLM movement. Although I understand why Rafi would like everyone to think so. [Smile]

[ September 05, 2015, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Pete at Home
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As usual, Tom sticks his head up his ass azbout a serious issue, but Rafi blows it out of proportion.

"Pigs in a blanket, fry white bacon" is the chant from the black lives matter movement."

Not quite, Rafi. It is a saying that has been repeated at IIRC only Two BLM marches. And az you point out, it didnt originate with BLM.

" That chant originates from the assassination of a NYC police office last December where the killer said he would put police in a blanket"

It's a violent strain within the broader BLM movement. I thin k it is nurtured by events such as booing Democrats who dar. To suggest that "all lives matter." but pro0lifers have violent radicals among them, as do pro ssmers and antirssmers.

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Rafi
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quote:
ST. PAUL, Minn. — An organizer behind the Black Lives Matter weekend march outside the Minnesota State Fair stood by the group's chant to fry police "like bacon," saying Monday that law enforcement officials are cherry-picking a 30-second chant to take issue with an otherwise peaceful protest.

Protesters were captured on camera yelling "pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" during Saturday's four-hour march around the fairgrounds in St. Paul. The chant was viewed by some law enforcement members as targeting police officers.

St. Paul Police Federation President Dave Titus told WCCO-TV it was ignorant and disgusting. The group's protest came hours after a suburban Houston officer was gunned down.

BLM protest and defended by its organizers, based on the claim from a prior assignation.
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AI Wessex
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If the chant was meant in the apparent spirit you take from it, does that condemn the entire BLM movement? If it does, what do the voluminous racist messages posted by the Ferguson police say about police officers everywhere?
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TomDavidson
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quote:
The group's protest came hours after a suburban Houston officer was gunned down.
I want you to think about the decision to include this detail, and what that says about the article. What does it tell you?
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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
Right now, we are about average for officer deaths from all causes but there has been a significant spike in August as well as one last January.

I'm also curious though about the reciprocal statistic connected with hostility towards the police, what has happened to the crime rate in the community expressing the most hostility? Anecdotal, but I heard there's been a big increase in crime and murder in areas showing the most hostility to the police. If that's the case, doesn't it sort of prove the inverse of the underlying claim, and that in reality the police are there protecting more than harming.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
most hostility? Anecdotal, but I heard there's been a big increase in crime and murder in areas showing the most hostility to the police.
I'd be very interested in hearing how this data was collected and how "hostility" was measured, personally.
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yossarian22c
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I'd be very interested in hearing how this data was collected and how "hostility" was measured, personally.

I remember reporting from NPR about the uptick in violence and murders in Baltimore following the riots there. I'm not sure about the hostility part but there have been significant upticks in violence in some areas.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
So Pyrtolin, under you definition of racism, would it not be racist to have less police presence in a minority neighborhood leaving minorities to suffer more criminal abuse because of their race, but also racist to have more police presence in a such a neighborhood since it implies there is connection between race and crime? Not sure what use a "definition" like that actually has.

Or maybe it would help make it clear that less police or more (oppressive) policing are both wrong answers and that the issue needs to be solved some other way. Nice try at a false dichotomy though; it does illustrate exactly why its useful to put it my terms.

Maybe, instead, something to try is _better_ policing. Not just dumping in more enforcers, but switching to a Community Oriented Policing model, where the police officers are fully integrated members of the community and tasked with building positive relationships, not simply oppressing the population there and squeezing them for ticket money. Maybe there's an economic dimension that needs to be addressed- better social support programs- more baseline income, more access to education, to health and child care, more community building programs that help people build the social support and business contact networks needed to actually have the opportunity to succeed, etc....

You've highlight exactly the kind of false choice that is exposed when you actually look at the whole picture and try to make the situation less oppressive instead of just trying to choose between different kinds of oppression.

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JoshCrow
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Since it just happened yesterday, I'll drop this story here:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/06/us/las-vegas-police-shooting/index.html

Trying to figure out whether this constitutes a new trend or thing will require lots of statistical study, but the occurrence of stories like this one does seem pertinent to report.

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LetterRip
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I suspect that there is no 'trend', that like that case we saw about a year ago, of claims of AA's attacking people as a 'knockout game' - turned out to be completely unrelated incidences that were normal robberies and assaults being framed by the media.
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AI Wessex
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Likely so. I read recently that altercations between police and unarmed civilians is up but gun violence against police is down this year compared to 2014.
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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
So Pyrtolin, under you definition of racism, would it not be racist to have less police presence in a minority neighborhood leaving minorities to suffer more criminal abuse because of their race, but also racist to have more police presence in a such a neighborhood since it implies there is connection between race and crime? Not sure what use a "definition" like that actually has. [/qb]

Or maybe it would help make it clear that less police or more (oppressive) policing are both wrong answers and that the issue needs to be solved some other way. Nice try at a false dichotomy though; it does illustrate exactly why its useful to put it my terms.
And what evidence are you providing that "oppressive policing" is actual occurring and at what rate versus community based policing? I think your position presumes a lot of incompetence on the part of everyone else without proof. In fact community outreach and involvement is not a new concept for police departments, and you'd be hard pressed to find any police department that doesn't engage in it to a greater or lesser extent. This again smacks of an academic criticism on your part, lecturing the rest of the world that is apparently too stupid to take what you deem are obvious measures that can't fail.
quote:
You've highlight exactly the kind of false choice that is exposed when you actually look at the whole picture and try to make the situation less oppressive instead of just trying to choose between different kinds of oppression.
Or, maybe you've completely discounted the efforts of millions of diligent and intelligent people who also see the problems (and have a lot more experience with them first hand) and have tried solutions and found the problems here are more complex than they appear from a distance?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Or, maybe you've completely discounted the efforts of millions of diligent and intelligent people who also see the problems (and have a lot more experience with them first hand) and have tried solutions and found the problems here are more complex than they appear from a distance?
You were the one that presented the false choice, not me. Nice try at trying to argue what I said back at me and pretend that it was your point. I'll take that backpedaling as a concession on your part that you were just blowing smoke.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
If the chant was meant in the apparent spirit you take from it, does that condemn the entire BLM movement? If it does, what do the voluminous racist messages posted by the Ferguson police say about police officers everywhere?

No.

Although it doesn't, the racist messages by some ferguson police say the same thing about ferguson PD in general that the murderous hatemongering by some in the BLM movement: that the organizations need to clean house and draw public lines about what will no longer be tolerated from within their ranks, and especially from their leadership.

Another point it makes is that organizations that feel under fire and see themselves as victims (be it BLM or the Ferguson PD) tend to have some of the most vicious outbursts. This isn't an excuse, but a prediction. Folks like Gandhi and Martin Luther King are a rarity. Most people, and to a greater extent, organizations, when surrounded by haters, tend to lash out stupidly, and to wallow in groupthink justifications. They fail as moral leaders. Doesn't mean that their original cause wasn't just. But public crucifixions rarely bring out the best in people.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
I suspect that there is no 'trend', that like that case we saw about a year ago, of claims of AA's attacking people as a 'knockout game' - turned out to be completely unrelated incidences that were normal robberies and assaults being framed by the media.

How about the word "phenomenon?" It's a strain within the "Black Lives Matter" group, one which BLM as a whole has not IIRC denounced, and which appears to have inspired some actual assassinations of good officers who had no particular issues. I hope you are right that it doesn't become a trend. But I tend to jump on phenomena to try to avoid them becoming a trend. For example, after that sheethead murdered all those innocents in the black church, I stuck my neck out here in Georgia calling for banning the confederate flag from public spaces. Symbolic murders need to be met by public disdain and symbolic retaliation.

Fact is that most folks who fly rebel flags were as horrified as I at what happened at that church. But a backlash against that symbol is the least harmful way to send a message against that sheethead attack. And since BLM seems to be the loudest public source of the "kill duh police" solicitation, they need to be held to account. Shamed until they clean house and take public steps to quash that hatefulness from among them.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
It's a strain within the "Black Lives Matter" group...
Is it? Which BLM members have assassinated cops?
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cherrypoptart
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I've seen the police assassinations you are talking about Pete, even if some other people don't see or pretend not to see.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-houston-police-officer-killed-20150830-story.html

"Police seek motive in 'cold-blooded assassination' of Houston officer"

I will go further than you have Pete, although it is right in line with what many cops are also saying, that these assassinations are meant to send a message and Obama approves of this message. People like Obama and Farrakhan and organizations like Black Lives Matter have declared open season on the police which has inspired this rash of "lone wolf" attacks. Obama at heart is still a "community instigator". It's who he is and it's what he does. And now it's costing police officers their lives.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
People like Obama and Farrakhan and organizations like Black Lives Matter have declared open season on the police...
What have they said, precisely?
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Greg Davidson
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quote:
it is right in line with what many cops are also saying, that these assassinations are meant to send a message and Obama approves of this message
Would those "many" cops be the ones who send racist messages on social media? How good is their judgement?
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LetterRip
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cherry,

as far as I'm aware there is no reason to believe an association with BLM.

I'm sure some cops believe it has something to do with BLM, that doesn't mean it does.

There are a huge number of motivations for killing someone - most of them are things like sex, drugs, money, power, revenge, mental illness.

Until the common motivations are exhausted, it seems rather foolish to jump to assuming it has anything to do with BLM.

There appears to be zero evidence in that case that it has to do with BLM.

This appears to be an attempt to discredit the movement without any evidence of it being associated with the movement.

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LetterRip
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In this case the shooter has a history of violence and mental illness.

quote:
Miles, a 30-year-old Houston resident who said little in court, is being held without bond. His criminal history dates back to 2005 and includes an arrest in Austin in 2012 that led to Miles being sent to a state mental hospital for several months.

Anderson would not comment on a motive, saying investigators were still trying to figure that out. When asked if it might be connected to heightened tensions around the country between law enforcement and civilians, Anderson said, “I have no idea whether it does or not.”

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/31/accused-killer-texas-police-officer-mental-illness#img-1
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Seriati
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Or, maybe you've completely discounted the efforts of millions of diligent and intelligent people who also see the problems (and have a lot more experience with them first hand) and have tried solutions and found the problems here are more complex than they appear from a distance?
You were the one that presented the false choice, not me. Nice try at trying to argue what I said back at me and pretend that it was your point. I'll take that backpedaling as a concession on your part that you were just blowing smoke.
It took me a while to comprehend what you think happened. So let me get this straight, you think that I presented a "false" choice by highlighting that both more police presence and less are racist as you construe the term, and that you offered up an enlightened option of better policing that would solve the problem completely, and that I co-opted it from you? Umm... no. I pointed out that your enlightened option is already in place, being tried and not always solving the problem. Which leaves you back at square one, where you are deflecting from a reconstructed definition that serves no usefull purpose other than to allow you to claim anything you disagree with is racist.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
If the chant was meant in the apparent spirit you take from it, does that condemn the entire BLM movement? If it does, what do the voluminous racist messages posted by the Ferguson police say about police officers everywhere?

I'm sure Tom was just about to ask, precisely what "voluminous racist messages" are you talking about?
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