Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Interpreting actions through the lens of racism (Page 3)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: Interpreting actions through the lens of racism
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The only objection I have here is that the former statement is a sign post to the latter statement. It is not a "just" answer, but a summation of all the factors that play into the latter statement to help people coherently refer to them as a collection. The shape of the term itself helps more clearly indicate that there are a set of benefits that one side has and the other is excluded from that are so taken for granted by the side that has them, that it makes it difficult, if not impossible for the side with them to meaningfully comment on the problems of those disadvantaged until they take a step back and unwind their assumptions about what other people may or may not have access to.
I do understand your point. I know my responses can (very easily) be seen as willful ignorance.

My position comes from my concept (flawed as all of ours are and colored by experience) of human behavior. I see it as an amazing waste of time to fight against human nature. In order to reach goals, I council exploiting our habits rather than working to change them. It’s a short sighted and unkind approach to humanity’s problems. That said, I believe it is the fastest way to help people who really do need help now.

There is a conscious and unconscious reaction by those with power to rebel against people who point out they somehow don’t deserve what they have. There is a reaction to rebel when people with even a shred of empathy are told THEY are part of what is hurting others. No matter how true that is, and no matter what level of power they (believe they) have to enact change, there will be a voice in their head telling them they are “a good person” and “don’t feel guilty, you’ve done nothing wrong.” Anything you (as someone attempting to improve life for others) can do to side step that powerful voice, should be done. Trick it, avoid it, manipulate it. Don’t confront it, that way lies failure.

[ September 24, 2015, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Except there is a stepper on toes. It seems rather premature to discuss a situation with no stepper until we've dealt with the one we have.

Really? Who is this stepper? Is it a human being? Note that even Pyrtolin states firmly that the phenomenon of racism (i.e. disparate results on racial lines) is not bigotry and therefore not a direct result of someone doing something to someone else. It needs be nothing more than a systemic organization that perpetuates the discrepancy, and the fault of the majority would be simply not recognizing the discrepancy and by inaction supporting it. But this is not at all the same as saying that majority themselves are stepping on someone else's toes, and to claim otherwise would be missing the point altogether.

I do think there have been some real 'steppers', since as I've mentioned before I think the war on drugs was initiated by a group of people that were most likely targeting blacks for persecution. But the other issues Pyr talks about are not about specific actors that need to stop oppressing anyone, but rather the main issue of awareness and changing the system.

And yet for all that the nomenclature of intersectionality is couched in terms that imply human oppressors and power-relationships where one party exists at the expense of another.

Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The system steps on toes as people make individual choices that support it. While the evidence of racism may only be visible in the aggregate, there are still people deciding what the rules are and how to implement them. The system needs to be changed so it stops stepping on toes. The fact that it may be inadvertent or unintentional does not lessen the pain.
quote:
And yet for all that the nomenclature of intersectionality is couched in terms that imply human oppressors and power-relationships where one party exists at the expense of another.
Since its intent is on achieving real change, why shouldn't it use terms based in reality?
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Really? Who is this stepper? Is it a human being? Note that even Pyrtolin states firmly that the phenomenon of racism (i.e. disparate results on racial lines) is not bigotry and therefore not a direct result of someone doing something to someone else. It needs be nothing more than a systemic organization that perpetuates the discrepancy, and the fault of the majority would be simply not recognizing the discrepancy and by inaction supporting it. But this is not at all the same as saying that majority themselves are stepping on someone else's toes, and to claim otherwise would be missing the point altogether.
No, claiming otherwise _is_ the point. The thing about stepping on someone else's toe is that you can be completely unaware that you're doing it. You don't feel anything different and unless you actualyl look down at your feet and make the effort to see what's going on you've got nothing but the complaints of the person that you're standing on to go by. As long as you deal with the situation through inaction- by deciding that it's not worth moving your foot because you don't believe what they're saying.

After all you're not feeling any pain, so there's no way they could be.

quote:
But the other issues Pyr talks about are not about specific actors that need to stop oppressing anyone, but rather the main issue of awareness and changing the system.
Indeed. And those with the power to change the system but resist doing so are, in that case, the steppers.

You seem to be inserting an intent to stomp on people's toes that was very explicitly not part of my example- just currently being in the state of having your boot on someone's toe.

quote:
And yet for all that the nomenclature of intersectionality is couched in terms that imply human oppressors and power-relationships where one party exists at the expense of another.
Imply? That's the problem. The gains a relative benefit from the oppressed state of the minority. First crack at real estate. Less competition for higher reward employment positions. Those are just the easiest examples, but a huge impact in and of themselves.

Heck, if you want to go into sexual orientation and identity, you've got people that can be cavalierly denied employment in many areas or that emergency medical services can simply decline to treat people in critical need without repercussions.

You're being dismissive here, but that is exactly what's going on and why such need to be honestly acknowledged so that they can be dealt with instead of allowing them to fester.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
The system steps on toes as people make individual choices that support it. While the evidence of racism may only be visible in the aggregate, there are still people deciding what the rules are and how to implement them. The system needs to be changed so it stops stepping on toes. The fact that it may be inadvertent or unintentional does not lessen the pain.
quote:
And yet for all that the nomenclature of intersectionality is couched in terms that imply human oppressors and power-relationships where one party exists at the expense of another.
Since its intent is on achieving real change, why shouldn't it use terms based in reality?
My point is not what its intent is. I am claiming that it has negative side effects in psychology and in social categorization. It may or may not have short term application in helping, but I foresee long term problems that outweigh the possible benefits.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
My point is not what its intent is. I am claiming that it has negative side effects in psychology and in social categorization. It may or may not have short term application in helping, but I foresee long term problems that outweigh the possible benefits.
And your familiar enough with the overall movement to know that this is a new revelation that no one has yet considered, tested various reactions to, and settled on things that actually do the best to get the point across, even if they're a little tough to swallow up front?

I mean sure, there are better ways to coddle people, but if the point is that minority rights should be rights and not simply the concessions they can eke out by sucking up to people with power. That's just another round of the cycle without any actual ground gained. IT may be a slower and more tedious process to educate people and make it more common to understand what's going on and start to act with more conscientiousness and responsibility, but the gains from doing so are more lasting and lead to more meaningful changes.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Again, my claim is that it's not just educating people (i.e. illuminating facts that are there already) but is changing people; from the act of observing in this manner one changes both the observer and the observed.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
Again, my claim is that it's not just educating people (i.e. illuminating facts that are there already) but is changing people; from the act of observing in this manner one changes both the observer and the observed.

One would hope that illumination would change people- that once they see what's going on they change their behavoir to be more contentious and responsible in the future.

Any suggestion that it's creating problems for the people being oppressed though, is flat out wrong, and only reasonable from a perspective that doesn't have to live with the ongoing damage. It amounts to hearing people crying out in pain and then telling them that their experience is invalid because you don't feel it.

Keep in mind that there are two paths from relativism here- you can either say "all our experiences are subjective, so I'll only pay attention to those that I want to" or "all experiences are subjective, so I must take you at your word for what you're feeling and see if we can find a way to work within that experience." The first cannot avoid but be oppressive to those that get marginalized, the second makes an effort to be inclusive and work toward integration instead of superiority.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1