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AI Wessex
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The thread title is just a little misleading, but hopefully he won't sue me for libel, like he says he will do to the Club for Growth:
quote:
[Trump side:] The cease and desist demand targets recent TV ads, as well as media interviews promoting the commercials, that suggest Trump is "very liberal." Monday's letter singled out a Club for Growth claim that Trump supports higher taxes, which Trump's legal team says is misleading and comes from a single, 15-year-old article.

"In other words, you lied," the letter said. "Mr. Trump does not support higher taxes. This is the very definition of libel."

The letter goes on to accuse Club for Growth of attempting a "shake-down" because Trump refused to donate $1 million to the group in exchange for its support.

"When Mr. Trump, however, presumably unlike many of the other candidates, refused to succumb to your extortionist demands, your only response was to oppose his inclusion in the August 6, 2015 Fox News Republican Presidential Debate, launch a series of misleading Attack Ads targeting Mr. Trump and, ultimately, endorse certain other candidates," the letter said.

The letter said Club for Growth had the choice of accepting a "one-time opportunity" offer to stop the ads and the related claims, or face a "multi-million dollar lawsuit" against both the organization and its leader, David M. McIntosh.

[Club For Growth Response:] “Tough guy Donald Trump starts whining when his liberal record is revealed,” Club for Growth president David McIntosh said in a statement. “Trump has advocated higher taxes numerous times over many years, just like he’s advocated for universal health care, the Wall Street bailout, and expanded government powers to take private property. Trump’s own statements prove that our ads are accurate. They will continue to run. We suggest that Donald grow up, stop whining, and try to defend his liberal record.”

Th ebull**** is so thick you could cut it with a switchblade.

But what the Donald has done is eviscerate the charade of political campaigning by not going along with Party Orthodoxy. I think that's why he can insult, defile, denigrate and lie about the other candidates, people he doesn't even know and even himself and people still are drawn to him. He's not your father's Oldsmobile; he's your very own heap billowing clouds of smoke.

Along the way he has caused people who think and vote Republican to question the people they thought were their champions. Carson and Fiorina are rising along with him, and traditional establishment candidates are floundering. Two very recognizable names, Perry and Walker, are gone. Next will be Paul (restaurants shouldn't have to serve blacks), Christie (People in NJ LOVE me, and so do YOU), Santorum (God speaks to me and I speak to you) and (God willing) Huckabee (God listens to me, and so should you).

I'm ready to predict that by the February/March primaries the short list (compared to the volume of competitors now vying) of establishment candidates will be:

* Bush (limping but too well funded to drop out)
* Cruz (too crazy to ever, ever, ever admit defeat)
* Rubio (nice guy who will lose every primary and become VP fodder)
* Graham (doesn't need money because he doesn't campaign and he's got nothing better to do with his time)
* Kasich (too bland to fail, too bland to win, just bland enough to be another VP option)

Then there is the outsider factor, for which there can be only one. I won't bet it will be Trump, even though his two clown clones are weak imitations of Trump Truth. At this point, he may have already accomplished everything he came for and will retire gracefully to become the elder statesman voicing the inner self of the nuts and aggrieved white Christians who make up a large plurality of the GOP. He may in fact rebrand the party as the GOCP (Grand Old Christian Party), an ultimate affirmation and irony to his real faith, which is branding.

It won't be Carson, because despite his crazy talk, he is after all a black man. Fiorina may well be the last man standing in the outside lane, but because she isn't actually a man the GOP won't raise her to the top of the list, either.

I am also willing to believe that next year could see a blue moon convention where brokering will produce the nominee, which would be Bush. The cost will be to saddle him with a VP to appeal to the far noxious right rather than Rubio or Kasich, perhaps even someone like Cruz.

The cost to the rest of us is that the more people in Europe and Asia learn about the GOP, the less they will think we know what we're doing. If you think our influence in the world is waning now, just wait and see what happens if one of these people wins the election.

Anybody disagree? What do you see happening...?

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NobleHunter
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The thing with Trump is that he's shameless enough to say what establishment Republicans leave as subtext. I think that will continue to insulate him from the yo-yo effect that afflicted the anyone-but-Romney parade last time. I'm expecting we'll have an anyone-but-Bush parade but that Trump invalidates the inevitability that protected Romney. I think it's a reasonably safe bet that by the later primaries it'll be Bush v Trump as the establishment freaks about their chances in the general.
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Seriati
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It was an interesting read, but its all just guess work and I doubt you end up right about much on the specifics. I certainly disagree on your reasoning on Carson and Fiorina, which is more left wing fantasy than reality of Republican voters.

I think Perry never should have entered, people knew who he was but not in any kind of a good way. His exit was predestined. Walker was a bigger surprise to exit that easily, but probably smart to realize he wasn't getting the nod. Rand should've exited by now as well, but he won't.

Couple of specifics:
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
I am also willing to believe that next year could see a blue moon convention where brokering will produce the nominee, which would be Bush. The cost will be to saddle him with a VP to appeal to the far noxious right rather than Rubio or Kasich, perhaps even someone like Cruz.

I don't think there's any chance, that we get a brokered candidate and particularly not Bush with an archconservative as the result of such brokering. This'll boil down to surprisingly few candidates quickly (you're already seeing large gaps).
quote:
The cost to the rest of us is that the more people in Europe and Asia learn about the GOP, the less they will think we know what we're doing. If you think our influence in the world is waning now, just wait and see what happens if one of these people wins the election.
This is just completely wrong. Europeans talk a big game, but they always act pragmatically in their self interest. They'll follow the lead of any well supported American President, even if they'd rather an Obama style one. Our influence is based on our power and the perception that we use it, not on the good feelings we engender in others. Exact same reason Chinese power is constantly expanding irregardless of their behavior.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
The thing with Trump is that he's shameless enough to say what establishment Republicans leave as subtext. I think that will continue to insulate him from the yo-yo effect that afflicted the anyone-but-Romney parade last time. I'm expecting we'll have an anyone-but-Bush parade but that Trump invalidates the inevitability that protected Romney. I think it's a reasonably safe bet that by the later primaries it'll be Bush v Trump as the establishment freaks about their chances in the general.

I think that people like Trump because he makes them feel smart.
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Wayward Son
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Somehow the title reminded me of the old President Nixon joke: he took crime off the streets, and put it in the White House where he could keep an eye on it.

It could make for a very interesting political season if Trump decides to sue for libel every attack ad against him. At least it will make his lawyers very rich. [Smile]

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NobleHunter
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kmbboots, ouch.

If Trump wants to sue for libel, he should move to the UK. Depends on how much he likes pork, though.

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kmbboots
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How about this then. The world is complicated. Complicated is scary and exhausting and can make people feel stupid and resentful of those that understand the complicated and explain it to us. Trump does not ask people to understand complicated. He spurns the complicated.
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NobleHunter
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No, no, I'm fine with being mean to people who like Trump.
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kmbboots
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Trump also makes us feel less guilty about the mean little thoughts that people expect us to hide. He isn't ashamed of them; he is proud of them!
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D.W.
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It could also be frustration with the same ol' same ol' and Trump is anything but that.
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Wayward Son
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He's just the same old ol'. [Smile]
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scifibum
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If we elect Trump we'll be that much closer to the political world of Idiocracy.
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AI Wessex
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Thanks, I needed that! [Smile]
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Wayward Son
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Looks like Trump has decided to boycott Fox News. Apparently he feels they have treated him "unfairly."

I guess he'll be relying on the good old "Liberal Media" to treat him fairly from now on. [Big Grin]

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AI Wessex
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Remember his threat to run as a Trumpocrat...
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DJQuag
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Trump seems to me to be the perfect storm of people being fed up with normal, lying, fake politicians combined with the majority of the electorate being willing to vote for people that they "like." (Remember people saying that Bush the Second was someone you could sit and have a beer with?)

People treat him like a joke, but I've got an uncomfortable feeling that Trump is going to go further then expected.

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Fenring
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I'm not 100% sure why everyone is vocally against Trump. Based on who he's up against I think I'd prefer him to the competition on almost every ground. I had hoped Rand Paul would fare better but it looks like things aren't going that way, and anyhow he is appearing to be a far weaker speaker and presenter of his beliefs than I had hoped for. In the senate he is very well-spoken but so far in the debates he's not making it happen.

Do the other candidates have any principles to stand by at all?

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cherrypoptart
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All I hear when people say they don't like Trump is that they want open and unsecured borders and they are mad because he says he wants to secure them.

Oh, and also anyone who wants a secure border and limits on immigration (besides the limit of how many people feel inclined to illegally come across our border) is a racist.

I can't help but dismiss all of their objections against Trump as the usual simple liberal foolishness, never to be taken seriously.

Not wanting a secure border and a sensible limit on immigration isn't a rational position, but it's the position of every anti-Trump person as far as I can tell.

What I see happening is either Trump will win and secure the border like he promised or we will end up like Europe which is getting invaded by Muslims and losing control of their countries and sovereignty. Most of the people invading us won't be Muslims but we will still lose control of our country. It's probably already too late, a position of hopelessness Obama has done everything in his power to secure.

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cherrypoptart
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Fenring, to borrow a page from their own book I think so many people are so vocally against Trump because they are afraid. They are Trumpophobes. They are afraid of success. They are afraid of security. They are afraid of prosperity. They are afraid that all of the things they have said are patently impossible will be done quite easily enough by Trump and Americans will be much better off. They are afraid he will secure the border and deport large numbers of illegals and crime will go down, employment will go up, wages will go up, educational achievement will go up for our children in smaller sized classrooms where they are not being held back by students still trying to learn English. They are afraid Trump is right. He will prove it. And everything they've said for generations now will be proven to be a lie.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
All I hear when people say they don't like Trump is that they want open and unsecured borders and they are mad because he says he wants to secure them.
Source? I've never heard anyone say they want "open and unsecured" borders.
quote:
Oh, and also anyone who wants a secure border and limits on immigration (besides the limit of how many people feel inclined to illegally come across our border) is a racist.
I've never heard anyone say that, either.
quote:
Not wanting a secure border and a sensible limit on immigration isn't a rational position, but it's the position of every anti-Trump person as far as I can tell.
How about you provide a reference to a specific person saying either of those things.
quote:
Fenring, to borrow a page from their own book I think so many people are so vocally against Trump because they are afraid. They are Trumpophobes. They are afraid of success. They are afraid of security. They are afraid of prosperity. They are afraid that all of the things they have said are patently impossible will be done quite easily enough by Trump and Americans will be much better off.
Yes, you are exactly right in every respect! Wait, I meant that you are FAR right, exactly. My mistake.

[ September 23, 2015, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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cherrypoptart
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Let's turn it around. We tried it the liberal way. We've had Obama in charge now for many years. And to be blunt, it sucks. He's failed. Internationally he is a failure. In America he is a failure. His policies are failures. Most people are much worse off. Look at all the Starbucks on the street corners replaced by payday loan stores. Massive, epic, fail. Education? Failure. Borders? Failure. Law enforcement? Failure. Peace in the Middle-East? Failure. Good relations with our allies? Failure. Better relations with our enemies? Failure. Real unemployment? Failure. Minority unemployment? Failure. Wages? Failure. Affordable healthcare? Failure. Better race relations? Failure. Upholding the Constitution? Failure. Transparency in government? Failure. Accountability in government? Failure. I mean I could just on and on all day like this. By just about every metric he is a failure.

And if someone like Trump comes in and turns things around that clarifies without any doubt exactly what and who the problem is.

And that's why so many people are so afraid.

And it's really pathetic to watch I might add.

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cherrypoptart
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Al, we just had the conversation right here on this board about that.

Did you read that "Trump: Anchor babies born in America are not American citizens" thread?

People were even saying that convicted child molesters should be allowed to come into our country if they served their sentences in their home country, even with the high recidivism rate they have.

It's all there in the thread, and it's all over the media, and on the talk shows. You keep asking for examples of things when they are all over the place.

Let me turn that around again though and ask it this way. Who is opposed to Trump but wants to secure the border and mass deport the illegals who violated it?

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AI Wessex
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If you think Trump is the pinnacle of Republican philosophy and ideals, then I GUARANTEE you that a ham sandwich would get more votes in the general election. You're right that many things are not as good as they could be in this country. It's kind of fascinating that you are so fixated on blaming Obama for every one of those things, since so many other people inside and outside of government have so much power and influence and have worked so hard to stop him from doing what he intended.

Just don't let your hatred make you think everything is all better if you get a Republican in the White House. And since you blame Obama for everything that is happening now, who will you blame when the **** gets deeper after he's been replaced with a savior of your choice?

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
Al, we just had the conversation right here on this board about that.

Did you read that "Trump: Anchor babies born in America are not American citizens" thread?

People were even saying that convicted child molesters should be allowed to come into our country if they served their sentences in their home country, even with the high recidivism rate they have.

It's all there in the thread, and it's all over the media, and on the talk shows. You keep asking for examples of things when they are all over the place.

Let me turn that around again though and ask it this way. Who is opposed to Trump but wants to secure the border and mass deport the illegals who violated it?

I just took a quick spin through that thread. It looks like you're the only one who was talking about child molesters. I asked you to find specific examples, but until you do I'll assume you can't.

I think I need to stop talking to you for a while...

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Fenring
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Uh, just to be clear, while cherry is 'agreeing' with me in some sense I'm not in agreement with cherry.

Al, who cares about being the pinnacle of "Republican philosophy"? How about just believing in something at all other than catch-phrases? I was astounded in the 2nd Rep debate at the repeated references to Reagan as some Presidential god. You could even see the candidates afraid to contradict this theme, as each of them in turn was dared by the network not to agree that Reagan's ideals were supreme. I don't need someone to represent 'Republican philosophy', I need candidates who have a brain and thoughts of their own.

PS although I think Trump is better than the other Rep candidates I do not specifically hope he becomes President.

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NobleHunter
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cherry, I don't like Trump because he's a content-less demagogue. Or is empty rhetoric only a problem from Democrats? The guy is all PR and no substance. He's catering to the worst parts of American society and getting away with it. If Trump is elected, he won't fix anything. At best, the federal government will thrash along without leadership for four years. At worst, well, a lot of people will die. Nothing I've heard about him reassures me that he's particularly concerned about the consequences of his actions so long as he can skate free of them.

Combined with some of the things Carson's been saying, I'm getting kinda worried the direction populism is taking the GOP.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I mean I could just on and on all day like this.
I have no doubt.
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AI Wessex
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Fenring:
quote:
How about just believing in something at all other than catch-phrases?
The irony is that people insist on putting candidates on pedestals. That's what Cherry just did with Trump. Since Trump hasn't actually articulated any specific plans, all he's given out are catch phrases and insults. If you think he's better than the other GOP candidates, aren't you falling for catch phrases? His position on everything so far is that it will be HUGE, they will pay for it and you will LOVE IT.
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cherrypoptart
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Trump has taken a position on illegal immigration. When you get right down to it, for reasons I explained in this thread along with plenty of other reasons, that is the only issue that matters. For instance, none of Jeb's positions matter at all because if there is any amnesty especially along with illegal immigration being allowed to continue unabated, the Republicans won't win enough future elections for their opinions to count for anything. So saying Trump hasn't taken any positions misses the point that he's taken the only relevant position already.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Fenring:
quote:
How about just believing in something at all other than catch-phrases?
The irony is that people insist on putting candidates on pedestals. That's what Cherry just did with Trump. Since Trump hasn't actually articulated any specific plans, all he's given out are catch phrases and insults. If you think he's better than the other GOP candidates, aren't you falling for catch phrases? His position on everything so far is that it will be HUGE, they will pay for it and you will LOVE IT.
He is smart not to nail down promises on various topics. For one thing he outright says that making promises about specifics is stupid since a candidate likely won't be able to get them done anyhow. That's a good thing to say, in a way, and in that light when he speaks of immigration you actually kind of think he might mean it. He also seems to know that if he promises things the other candidates do he'll just be another one of them, which he really isn't. If he makes other promises he runs the risk of being called a closet Democrat or 'not a real Republican'. His way around this is brilliant - just don't admit to anything. Jeb is actually playing the same game, but just without the bluster. He's keeping most of his cards close to his chest waiting for the others to destroy themselves, but in the meantime Trump is branding himself while Jeb is a wallflower.

All in all Trump appears to be trolling the political discourse that other candidates feel they have to employ. This isn't the same as trolling the election process itself, although it certainly takes the piss out of the normal tactics we see employed. This can only be good for voters, since candidates being rigidly stuck into a pre-set mold doesn't help us learn who they are and just makes them vie for the dubious honor of who fits into a preconception better (such as 'who is most like Reagan'). Another thing Trump is trolling is the dishonestly of campaigning on vacuous platforms. We already know that most of what candidates say prior to election is irrelevant and is hot air to gain votes. Trump is all but saying out loud this is the case, and he's just not bothering with the hot air (well, without their brand of hot air).

I don't mean to overly praise Trump, but I suspect he's doing a good thing for GOP politics. I also think that saying the normal game is stupid, when it in fact is stupid, is at least as good as playing the game well.

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AI Wessex
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Didn't you just contradict yourself?
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D.W.
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My problem with Trump is mostly his personality. The idea of the office retaining dignity with Trump holding it blows my mind. Policy wise, I don’t think he’s any more, and in a lot of ways less, of a disaster than those in “his party”. He is like a comedian who bombards you with profanity but isn’t all that funny. It get’s attention and we are sick of the, “I can speak for hours without saying anything of substance” types. That doesn’t mean he could run the country.
quote:
Let's turn it around. We tried it the liberal way. We've had Obama in charge now for many years. And to be blunt, it sucks. He's failed. Internationally he is a failure. In America he is a failure. His policies are failures. Most people are much worse off.
The only way I feel Obama has failed to meet my expectations is he has on multiple occasions acted too quickly in order to not let a liberal propaganda moment slip by un exploited in a news cycle. I would happily continue with the policies of this administration moving forward. While I don’t agree with everything, I agree with a lot more than I have with past presidents. So yes, we tried the liberal way at least for the grown up chair while the kiddie tables rioted and threw tantrums for most of the duration. I thought/think it went pretty well considering.
quote:
I don't mean to overly praise Trump, but I suspect he's doing a good thing for GOP politics. I also think that saying the normal game is stupid, when it in fact is stupid, is at least as good as playing the game well.
I agree with this. Highlighting the stupid, may be a huge public service to our country.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Didn't you just contradict yourself?

Maybe you misunderstood something.
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AI Wessex
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You said:
quote:
How about just believing in something at all other than catch-phrases?
That's all Trump has offered, isn't it? You seemed to agree with that when you said:
quote:
He is smart not to nail down promises on various topics. For one thing he outright says that making promises about specifics is stupid since a candidate likely won't be able to get them done anyhow.
...
All in all Trump appears to be trolling the political discourse that other candidates feel they have to employ.

Sounds to me that you don't want me to accuse him of using catch phrases, but you in turn praise him for doing nothing more than just that.
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Fenring
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No. My point is that he's satirizing catch-phrases (at least I think he is). Him calling B.S. on the normal way of stating one's platform has no bearing on whether he actually believes in something. In fact, the very fact of him declining to employ standard tactics shows that he does believe in something - he believes that normal political rhetoric is stupid. I can get behind that. If the comments of the other candidates are rubbish and someone declines to participate in the rubbish-fest, I hardly think that qualifies as believing in nothing. True, it doesn't tell us what he thinks about, say, abortion, but it does tell us that he's intelligent and doesn't care for false promises. Maybe that puts him higher than the others on the honesty scale, maybe not, depending on how you look at it. But I don't see why you'd surmise that because he doesn't issue standard talking-points that he "believes in catch-phrases."
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NobleHunter
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The response to the President's limited ability to affect change is not to refuse to name details but to be more judicious about what those details are. You have even less idea about what Trump would do than someone who promises the moon. At least you know the latter (unless they're outright lying) will strap themselves to a rocket.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
My point is that he's satirizing catch-phrases (at least I think he is).
If he is, why do more people in the GOP polls think they want him to be President? That would be like nominating Andrew Dice Clay to coach a girl's swim team. He would probably freak out if they bled from their wherever during practice.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
quote:
My point is that he's satirizing catch-phrases (at least I think he is).
If he is, why do more people in the GOP polls think they want him to be President? That would be like nominating Andrew Dice Clay to coach a girl's swim team. He would probably freak out if they bled from their wherever during practice.
Why am I an authority on why people like him? I only mentioned why I prefer him to his competition. If I had to guess I think they like that he's breaking the mold and is more memorable than the others. I very much doubt the average voter even attempts to assess how competent at "executing" the wishes of Congress any candidate would be. They look at attitude, manner, image, maybe platform, and perhaps reputation. Did you think it was any different?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
All in all Trump appears to be trolling the political discourse that other candidates feel they have to employ. This isn't the same as trolling the election process itself, although it certainly takes the piss out of the normal tactics we see employed. This can only be good for voters, since candidates being rigidly stuck into a pre-set mold doesn't help us learn who they are and just makes them vie for the dubious honor of who fits into a preconception better (such as 'who is most like Reagan'). Another thing Trump is trolling is the dishonestly of campaigning on vacuous platforms. We already know that most of what candidates say prior to election is irrelevant and is hot air to gain votes. Trump is all but saying out loud this is the case, and he's just not bothering with the hot air (well, without their brand of hot air).
That's close to what I'm getting as well. He's actualyl saying the exact same things as the other candidates, he's just being far more blunt about it and not bothering to try to encode it or resort to dog whistles to communicate meaning. There have been a few glimmers of originality from a couple of the major candidates, but otherwise he's just reciting everything they do back them without mincing words.
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DJQuag
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I actually think picking a fight with Fox News is a good move. To those in the middle and on the left who see Fox News as the most important beacon of conservatism and evil that there is, this will make him more likeable. In his own way, this is him hooking moderate a little.

Latest poll has him up big in New Hampshire.

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