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Author Topic: The Culture of Victimhood
JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
it's downright impossible to offend me personally without intending to do so
It is indeed nice to be a middle-class white man in America. [Smile]
It certainly made it easier for me, but I do believe that basically anyone can get there if they cared to. The climb is steeper, and one must deliberately and consciously reject tribe-identities, which are tempting and comforting.
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TomDavidson
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The problem I have with that is that "white male technocrat" is a tribal identity, so it's not like WE have to actually walk that walk.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
The problem I have with that is that "white male technocrat" is a tribal identity, so it's not like WE have to actually walk that walk.

And if some people are naturally healthy while others start at a disadvantage and have to work at it, does this somehow negate the value of the goal "let's all try to be healthy"? Do we tell people who are healthy already that they shouldn't advocate exercise and eating well?
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TomDavidson
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Except that we white male technocrats are the ones insisting that the "healthiest" viewpoint -- in a shocking twist of fate -- just happens to be that of white male technocrats. And then we insist to ourselves that this is a virtue, because we aren't deliberately making things harder for people; it's not our fault that we're just naturally closer to our own ideal.
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JoshCrow
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TomD: The term "white male technocrat" has precisely zero significance to me; I could wake up tomorrow as a black woman and be the same person, even as society would view me differently. My identity as "me" is firmly divorced from a tribe (and yes, this was easier because of my white maleness). I do not self-identify as a race, or do things for the reason "that's what men do". I identify only as an individual, which is derisively called "privilege" but which in fact is simply a healthy state of mental affairs, a "default", beautifully empty of "tribe affiliation". On top of that, anyone can join my "club" regardless of their race or gender - all you need is a strong sense of yourself, and to overcome attempts (by others... perhaps like you just now) to stuff you into a tribal box.

I am no more "tribal" than atheism is a "religion".

I've also noticed, in comedy, some attempts by non-whites to describe "white culture", is funny because such a thing doesn't really exist meaningfully. There just aren't enough shared themes between white people for that to be a thing.

[ September 29, 2015, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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D.W.
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quote:
Except that we white male technocrats are the ones insisting that the "healthiest" viewpoint -- in a shocking twist of fate -- just happens to be that of white male technocrats.
While some no doubt believe this, isn’t it just more likely that the culture/tribe with the most power, most comfortable way of life and fewest people actively imposing on them, is seen as the “healthiest”? It’s not a shocking twist of fate it’s a result of actual military and cultural conquest.

There is a lot true with the old saying, “If you can’t beat them, join them.” You can try to shame a conqueror into being more benevolent though being treated as an equal is hard to pull off. Integrating with the conqueror so they have no reason to make a distinction is a more sure path to equality. That or conquer right back I suppose, as demographics may make this possible at some point in the future. That is no doubt part of the immigration issue debate today.

[ September 29, 2015, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
My identity as "me" is firmly divorced from a tribe (and yes, this was easier because of my white maleness).

quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
I identify only as an individual, which is derisively called "privilege" but which in fact is simply a healthy state of mental affairs, a "default", beautifully empty of "tribe affiliation".

Isn't the first statement the whole point of the privilege referenced in the second statement The natural characteristics of the individual, which they had to do no work to obtain, change the difficulty settings on the game of life.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
The term "white male technocrat" has precisely zero significance to me; I could wake up tomorrow as a black woman and be the same person, even as society would view me differently.
Uh, really? You could switch gender and race and everything else in your life would be exactly as it was? This also ignores that you would have grown up in a different household with different experiences and memories. It's not like changing those two things is like changing your avatar.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
I could wake up tomorrow as a black woman and be the same person...
But you could not have grown up as a black woman and be the same person. Agreed?
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
I could wake up tomorrow as a black woman and be the same person...
But you could not have grown up as a black woman and be the same person. Agreed?
I can agree that it would have been much harder! One has to overcome not only the racism/sexism/etc of the world at large that attempts to impose limits on you and to define "who you are", but you would also have to overcome even the more well-intended forms of race/gender definition, the ones that come from one's own ilk, often a response to the situation.

Essentially, you have to step outside a whirlwind of social forces and "be you". Not easy, and harder when those forces are stronger, as they are for minorities and women.

edited to add: This is more possible today than it was in the past. Nothing I'm saying would have been even worth exploring if society denied one the actual ability to do what you can do (e.g. when racism/sexism were so rampant that one actually needed to join forces in the "tribe" to change the law)

[ September 29, 2015, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
My identity as "me" is firmly divorced from a tribe (and yes, this was easier because of my white maleness).

quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
I identify only as an individual, which is derisively called "privilege" but which in fact is simply a healthy state of mental affairs, a "default", beautifully empty of "tribe affiliation".

Isn't the first statement the whole point of the privilege referenced in the second statement The natural characteristics of the individual, which they had to do no work to obtain, change the difficulty settings on the game of life.

Well, not exactly - it's not one's natural characteristics that "change the difficulty settings"... it's living in a world of people who are full of (conscious or unconscious) biases and expectations that arise around relatively uninteresting facts about a person (Skin color! Genitalia & hormones!).
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
quote:
The term "white male technocrat" has precisely zero significance to me; I could wake up tomorrow as a black woman and be the same person, even as society would view me differently.
Uh, really? You could switch gender and race and everything else in your life would be exactly as it was? This also ignores that you would have grown up in a different household with different experiences and memories. It's not like changing those two things is like changing your avatar.
Al - I'm making the observation that there is a difference between "being black and female" and "growing up black and female", which I think is your point and something we agree on. My point is essentially that if you took me as I am now (white male in my 30's) and transplanted my mind and experiences into a black, female body... I would still be "me". I would walk out into a world where the social forces on me would be different, but my response to them would be that of the current me: utter indifference to what other people "expect of me", and perhaps a lack of awareness - but in a good sort of way. For example, if I subsequently got pulled over for "Driving While Black", my reaction would probably be different from someone who had grown up exposed to the idea that getting pulled over is often due to racial bias, and who therefore had inculcated a sense of being a victim of a larger problem. It doesn't mean getting pulled over for DWB was justified - but my perception of it would alter my response and experience.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Except that we white male technocrats are the ones insisting that the "healthiest" viewpoint -- in a shocking twist of fate -- just happens to be that of white male technocrats. And then we insist to ourselves that this is a virtue, because we aren't deliberately making things harder for people; it's not our fault that we're just naturally closer to our own ideal.

Do you submit that a lack of tribal thinking is a superior way of thinking, as JoshCrow suggests? I put it to you that if you agree with him about the desired goal, then to repudiate that goal purely on the basis that the majority believes it would be ridiculous. That's like someone telling a Catholic in Vatican City that since they live in a majority Christian environment they only believe Christianity is correct because they're the majority there and can declare their own beliefs to be the goal in life. But to suggest that would be putting the cart before the horse, since their common culture is based on common belief, rather than the other way around.

If you don't agree with JoshCrow that doing away with tribalism is a good idea, would you suggest endorsing tribalism? Or perhaps you would argue that some cultures ought to try to overcome tribalism while others shouldn't? In the end it's fine and dandy to reject anything at all when the majority is trying to 'dictate it' to the minority, but let's pretend it was a minority saying this instead. Would you subscribe to it?

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
My point is essentially that if you took me as I am now (white male in my 30's) and transplanted my mind and experiences into a black, female body... I would still be "me".

While I'm with you on the general point you're making, I'd like to suggest that an attempt to define one's personal character as something that can exists aside from the contents of one's body and environment is a wildly dangerous notion to entertain. This borders on an ascetic religious position, and although I have a suspicion that these days many atheists would agree with your claim, nevertheless I think that a desire to separate mind from body as two different kinds of matter is both inaccurate as well as leading down paths of ill mental health. The state of one's mind is both an inside-out as well as an outside-in process, both feeding back on each other, hence the entire notion of yoga, zen and Buddhist physical training as methods of developing the mind and spirit.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Al - I'm making the observation that there is a difference between "being black and female" and "growing up black and female", which I think is your point and something we agree on. My point is essentially that if you took me as I am now (white male in my 30's) and transplanted my mind and experiences into a black, female body... I would still be "me". I would walk out into a world where the social forces on me would be different, but my response to them would be that of the current me: utter indifference to what other people "expect of me", and perhaps a lack of awareness - but in a good sort of way. For example, if I subsequently got pulled over for "Driving While Black", my reaction would probably be different from someone who had grown up exposed to the idea that getting pulled over is often due to racial bias, and who therefore had inculcated a sense of being a victim of a larger problem. It doesn't mean getting pulled over for DWB was justified - but my perception of it would alter my response and experience. [/QB]

I understand your point but do disagree about almost all key aspects of what you are saying. If it were possible to transfer your consciousness into another body, then for a very brief instant you might have continuity with your prior incarnation. But, only for an instant. The new body would be entirely different, starting with the brain having different structures and different biologically driven behavior characteristics reflecting how that body - like yours - evolved from conception through to the one it was at the moment of your transfer. The differences would be the butterfly principle writ a million times larger. Rather than somehow continuing on as the same self/same consciousness, I would imagine you would go stark raving mad almost immediately because nothing is the way your old brain knew things to be. It's fantasy to imagine what those differences would be and that you could somehow "normalize" them to your old ways, but it's even greater fantasy to imagine that *you* would be exactly as you were in another body. The only thing I would agree with you on is that some of your memories might come across, but it's pure speculation to imagine even that. I know where you want to go, but I can't get there from here.

For me a better analogy would be a "separated at birth" experiment with identical twins. Last year I read about one such study where two twins weren't actually separated at birth, but had a number of separate experiences that shaped their lives. As adults many people didn't even recognize them as twins because their personalities had diverged to such an extent that their physical appearance and behavior were starkly different. Experience shapes the brain, which is as plastic in its neurological ways as your leg muscles are to physical exercise.

[ September 29, 2015, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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AI Wessex
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I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that I saw a movie when I was growing up called "Black Like Me". It was based on an autobiography of a reporter who died his skin brown so he could experience what it was like to be black in the south. It's available online in different places, if you're interested. I think it affected me more than almost any movie I saw as a kid, except The Hustler and The Fly (coincidentally, also about mind transference). I now play tournament pool and don't much worry about flies, so those were both positive experiences, I guess.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that I saw a movie when I was growing up called "Black Like Me". It was based on an autobiography of a reporter who died his skin brown so he could experience what it was like to be black in the south.

Yeah, I heard that the forthcoming 2015 remake sees the main character heading a chapter of the NAACP. [Cool]
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
It's fantasy to imagine what those differences would be and that you could somehow "normalize" them to your old ways, but it's even greater fantasy to imagine that *you* would be exactly as you were in another body. The only thing I would agree with you on is that some of your memories might come across, but it's pure speculation to imagine even that. I know where you want to go, but I can't get there from here.

It looks like you're rejecting my scenario purely because of the mechanics of it - but I can almost arbitrarily rewrite the scenario to address this. Imagine, if you will, that my current body is comatose and scientific technology allows me to suddenly control, via telepathic uplink technology, a perfectly functioning surrogate body that is black and female. What I'm saying is - I'm still "me", but the face I'm presenting to the world is new. If you still want to argue that maybe I "would go mad": consider how mundane it is for me even with today's technology to pick up an immersive video game and pilot an avatar around.
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scifibum
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I think that would require new definitions for comatose and control, JoshCrow. Which is kind of Al's point. You are your body, not a ghost holding the controls.
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AI Wessex
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Yes, thanks. I think JoshCrow wants to ignore the issue of the mind-body problem, but that's not possible. If he instead wants to project his brain's "commands" onto a robot that has no brain structure of its own, then we're engaging in a more debatable approach, but still one that is purely hypothetical. For him to say even in that scenario that he would be himself is simply an assertion that can't be proven.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Do you submit that a lack of tribal thinking is a superior way of thinking, as JoshCrow suggests?
I submit that thinking like your default tribe is not in fact a lack of tribal thinking.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Do you submit that a lack of tribal thinking is a superior way of thinking, as JoshCrow suggests?
I submit that thinking like your default tribe is not in fact a lack of tribal thinking.
You see, for skin color one can't lack a skin color. Not having the skin color of a minority ibso facto means you are white in America, i.e. part of that group if you will. But I don't see how lacking a social trait, even if in common with others, makes one 'like them.' It's like saying that everyone who doesn't eat dairy likes the same food. They may share the common trait of avoid certain food, but otherwise there is no basis on strictly this point to say that they are part of a tribe.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Yes, thanks. I think JoshCrow wants to ignore the issue of the mind-body problem, but that's not possible. If he instead wants to project his brain's "commands" onto a robot that has no brain structure of its own, then we're engaging in a more debatable approach, but still one that is purely hypothetical. For him to say even in that scenario that he would be himself is simply an assertion that can't be proven.

Is not a man who gets organ transplants still "himself"? Is your contention that a person who received a head transplant (which a team intends to attempt in 2017, incidentally) will no longer be "themself"?

Since the brain is quite evidently the seat of one's conception of one's identity, I don't see why this poses a challenge to imagine.

For a while I *thought* you were going to argue that I am committing a "barking cat" fallacy (i.e. denying the very thing that makes it what it is)... but it looks like you are hung up on mechanics.

Is a better scenario one in which I contract a strange disease that makes me skin black and alters my hormones and genitals?

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Is a better scenario one in which I contract a strange disease that makes me skin black and alters my hormones and genitals?
Still quite a stretch [Wink] , but at least in the realm of possibility. But, if your genitals change your hormones would change. Wouldn't that change your perceptions and responses in your environment? BTW, I don't think the self is something that you bring to the table; rather, it's what the table serves to you, where the "table" in the latter part of that metaphor is your nature (body) + nurture (environment). If you subscribe to the religious notion that your soul is well-formed and rolled up inside you at the moment of conception, then we're just talking past each other and can't really resolve this.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Al - I'm making the observation that there is a difference between "being black and female" and "growing up black and female", which I think is your point and something we agree on. My point is essentially that if you took me as I am now (white male in my 30's) and transplanted my mind and experiences into a black, female body... I would still be "me". I would walk out into a world where the social forces on me would be different, but my response to them would be that of the current me: utter indifference to what other people "expect of me", and perhaps a lack of awareness - but in a good sort of way. For example, if I subsequently got pulled over for "Driving While Black", my reaction would probably be different from someone who had grown up exposed to the idea that getting pulled over is often due to racial bias, and who therefore had inculcated a sense of being a victim of a larger problem. It doesn't mean getting pulled over for DWB was justified - but my perception of it would alter my response and experience.
To start with, for sure. But do you claimn that repeated exposure to different treatment because of your appearance would not eventually cause to to learn to anticipate and react to that treatment? Are you fully confident that you are immune to behavioral conditioning instead of simply currently benefitting from a type of conditioning that allows you to maintain your current attitude?
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
But, if your genitals change your hormones would change. Wouldn't that change your perceptions and responses in your environment? BTW, I don't think the self is something that you bring to the table; rather, it's what the table serves to you, where the "table" in the latter part of that metaphor is your nature (body) + nurture (environment). If you subscribe to the religious notion that your soul is well-formed and rolled up inside you at the moment of conception, then we're just talking past each other and can't really resolve this.

The hormones would take some getting used to, I'm sure! [LOL] But affecting perceptions is quite different from affecting those responses which occur after being processed at the seat of reason. To use a benign example, maybe I would feel 'colder' at a given temperature if I had a female body , but that does not mean "Josh" would have a different response to "being cold".

As to your last statement - there's no danger of confusing me with some soul-hugging religious person. I'm quite mechanistic. Yes, we are formed by nature and nurture, that is not something I doubt. [Smile]

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Since the brain is quite evidently the seat of one's conception of one's identity, I don't see why this poses a challenge to imagine.

What does having the same brain with a different body have anything to do with what the brain will then conceive? You'll no doubt have much in common with your past self, but it won't be the same. Any claims more specific than this can't help but be counterfactual for now.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Yes, we are formed by nature and nurture, that is not something I doubt. [Smile]
And if that process continues throughout your existence, then being in a new body would change you, wouldn't it? How long before you would start to notice the dust balls in the corner of your living room, for instance? (JK!, JK!)
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
To start with, for sure. But do you claimn that repeated exposure to different treatment because of your appearance would not eventually cause to to learn to anticipate and react to that treatment? Are you fully confident that you are immune to behavioral conditioning instead of simply currently benefitting from a type of conditioning that allows you to maintain your current attitude?

Totally fair question, and one I can only speculate about, but - my "aspirational" behavior (the thing that I would aspire to) is that I would learn to just "shrug and deal with it", which is (getting back to the OP) the response that embodies "dignity culture".

To be fair, Pyr, I acknowledge that the dignity culture of "learning to deal with it" would have been not only difficult, but totally inappropriate in situations where my fundamental rights were being violated. I wouldn't advocate passivity in the face of a major civil-rights violation - I am suggesting that our current "victimhood" culture is prescribing the same solutions to microaggressions that it did to macro ones.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
quote:
Yes, we are formed by nature and nurture, that is not something I doubt. [Smile]
And if that process continues throughout your existence, then being in a new body would change you, wouldn't it? How long before you would start to notice the dust balls in the corner of your living room, for instance? (JK!, JK!)
Al, why don't you just cut to the chase and argue that I wouldn't be able to reason quite the same way I do now? Hang on, let me set up my microphone and recorder... there. Speak clearly... I am in no way planning to send this to the SJW authorities along with your address and phone number... [LOL] (I kid - I get what you mean).
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Al, why don't you just cut to the chase and argue that I wouldn't be able to reason quite the same way I do now?
You may think that's what I'm saying, but I am. I'm also saying that *everything* about you would be different, but which things to what degree can't be known. The opposite assertion that *nothing* about you would change is impossible. I've said it enough times by now, I reckon...
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
quote:
Al, why don't you just cut to the chase and argue that I wouldn't be able to reason quite the same way I do now?
You may think that's what I'm saying, but I am. I'm also saying that *everything* about you would be different, but which things to what degree can't be known. The opposite assertion that *nothing* about you would change is impossible. I've said it enough times by now, I reckon...
I'm not sure I've ever said "nothing would change" - heck, even in my own body I experience a gradual change. I don't hold all the same beliefs I did at 16. But certain traits about "how I think" are probably not very different - just more layered. There is a certain decelerating rate of change, I think, as one ages.
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NobleHunter
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quote:
It certainly made it easier for me, but I do believe that basically anyone can get there if they cared to. The climb is steeper, and one must deliberately and consciously reject tribe-identities, which are tempting and comforting.
JoshCrow, I think you're underestimating the consequences of not being part of the herd in face of predator pressure. In some cases, people have to conform to expected tribal characteristics or face violence.

Not to mention the benefits of a tribe identity which gives a person a space where they don't have to pass as a member of another tribe; where they can switch to a more comfortable code. It was amazingly relaxing to be in a space where I know flirting will result in nothing worse than biting sarcasm. Not that I flirted much, but just knowing I could helped.

There's a reason us queers go mad in statistically significant numbers. Negotiating a straight society is hard work and sometimes we crack a little. At least we can go mad together, though.

I guess I mean you're over generalizing from your experience and that steep hill is a cliff face more often than you realize. Rather than merely tempting and comforting, tribal identities are cold weather gear. One can go without, but the odds of them freezing to death go up as well.

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Fenring
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This brings up another issue related to tribal mentality: what if it's the case that most people in fact do not want to be bereft of a tribe? Or to put it more in line with JoshCrow's phrasing, what if most people don't want to be "just me"? This is a question that is orthogonal to whether it's good for people to get over tribal identity, because as we know people in many parts of life do not do what's best for them, even if they know for certain what that is. It can be more comfortable to not have to stand your own ground, and certainly easier not to have to figure out who you are beyond being part of the tribe. An analogy to this point can be found in the notion of democracy itself. We can say that it's the best form of government to allow the people to decide for themselves, but what if it's the case that many or most people would really rather prefer someone else decide for them so they don't have to think? One can suggest that people might change in this respect if they were brought up differently, but at present it seems that the way they're brought up tends towards a herd mentality where for the most part the illusion of choice is good enough for most people. In the case of such people they would likely be far less satisfied being 'their own person' rather than being part of a group.

Since I'm apparently writing an essay I'd like to bring up one other point as well. When JoshCrow speaks of outgrowing tribal identity, I think we tacitly assume that he is referring to what we may as well call 'bull**** tribes'; in other words, groups that have nothing more to bind them than things like skin color, maybe some cultural things (i.e. shared history), perhaps religious upbringing, and so forth. Most characteristics of a BS tribe are things you simply take pride in because you were born into it and that's about it. Maybe you take pride in the food or something, but otherwise it's not much more substantive than a "we vs they" thing. But what if a person held certain beliefs that required work to achieve; what if that person took pride not in the accident of their birth, but in the results of hard work and striving? And what if other people who value the same goals also take pride in it, and the lot of them take pride in it together? Might this not constitute a tribe of sorts as well? But in this case the tribe is based on a sense of value in the future - where you would like to be, rather than in the past, where you are from. Might we reevaluate tribal identity if it took this form? An easy example of this that we can find is in the academic community, where for the most part the members were not born into academia but rather chose it and presumably take pride in the work in their field. Is there a substantive difference between feeling like a member of the tribe of history professors, as compared with the tribe of white or black people, or liberals or conservatives?

[ September 29, 2015, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
JoshCrow, I think you're underestimating the consequences of not being part of the herd in face of predator pressure. In some cases, people have to conform to expected tribal characteristics or face violence.

I'm mostly talking about societies that have progressed to a point at least where people are comfortable enough to start focusing in on microaggressions... I fully understand tribal identity as a herd defense against a macro threat.

quote:

Not to mention the benefits of a tribe identity which gives a person a space where they don't have to pass as a member of another tribe; where they can switch to a more comfortable code. It was amazingly relaxing to be in a space where I know flirting will result in nothing worse than biting sarcasm. Not that I flirted much, but just knowing I could helped.

I guess a logical analogy for me to consider from my own experience would be to imagine myself living deep in Christian country (I'm an atheist). True, it's not precisely the same (since religious belief is a choice) but there is also the temptation (and opportunity) to "pass" among the population. I seldom broach the subject unless I already can feel the person I'm talking to is at least open-minded.

Reflecting on that, it is odd, then, that I have not felt inclined to attend an atheist group or meet-up.. despite that it would be nice to hang out with like folk. Atheism is a funny thing - in many ways its public image in the US is currently worse (I would argue) than homosexuality, but it is also easier to hide socially.

You've given me much to think about - thank you!

So what are the microaggressions in the queer community? As an outsider I would guess they are probably less overt than for a visible group.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
But what if a person held certain beliefs that required work to achieve; what if that person took pride not in the accident of their birth, but in the results of hard work and striving? And what if other people who value the same goals also take pride in it, and the lot of them take pride in it together? Might this not constitute a tribe of sorts as well?

Well, pulling from my own background, I feel like fans of heavy metal are "a tribe" of sorts for me, since I feel an immediate kinship with those who appreciate metal. But "history professor" and "metalhead" aren't groups that have historically needed protection or had civil rights issues associated with them.

I think the tribalism to concern ourselves with is that which has two characteristics in common: 1) it is emergent in a person without their choice (although religion is a funny one here, since technically it is a choice, but children are also indoctrinated), and 2) it is a historically disadvantaged group. These seem to be the common factors in whether one adopts the "victim culture" posture and the one in which the tribe-identity is most directly connected to "identity politics" in the wider world.

[ September 29, 2015, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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NobleHunter
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Hrum.

There's a whole set associated with coming out and reactions against it. The line from X-men "have you tried not being a mutant?" is a good example. And being shouted at on the street. For some reason people feel the need to point out my sexuality when I'm with my fiancé. Since he's more... flamboyant he gets more trouble, usually manifesting as creepy people.

Since I pass as straight and don't get out much, I don't get bothered much. I get grumpy out of empathy rather than personal experience.

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
The line from X-men "have you tried not being a mutant?" is a good example.

Correction: you mean the line from Buffy the Vampire Slayer "have you tried not being the Slayer?"
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NobleHunter
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Nope. Iceman gets asked that by his parents in X2. I'd forgotten the Buffy line.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Nope. Iceman gets asked that by his parents in X2. I'd forgotten the Buffy line.

Yes, the line was lifted word for word from a Buffy episode [Smile] And what's worse I hated the line the first time...
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