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Author Topic: The Culture of Victimhood
D.W.
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I am a white male technocrat. Do you want anything from me other than timidity, self hate and apologizing for the accident of my birth? Maybe I should refrain from ANY contact with women at all. You know, so I don’t perpetuate the privilege… Is that what this is about?

I can’t make someone white who’s not. I don’t have access to the hormones or the surgical knowledge to change someone to male. I’m not a teacher but I occasionally reveal the mysteries of the technocracy to those who ask. (If they ask about user level computing knowledge, architecture or video gaming at least…)

So beyond that, it seems to me that asking me to leverage that “privilege” is what would be wanted. Do you want allies or just the downfall of a group I was born into? It’s hard to tell a lot of the time.

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jasonr
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Tom you might have found that I agreed with some of what you said, particularly regarding Josh's naive belief that he can somehow trascend a lifetime of social conditioning through force of will. But you prefer to argue drive by style and tell us we're troglodytes. Okay.
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TomDavidson
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What I want from white male technocrats -- and i speak here as a white male technocrat -- is that they not immediately default to the belief that the solutions that have appeared to work for them will work for anyone willing to live in the manner they consider correct (i.e. the manner that comes most naturally to them), and a recognition that it is right and correct and necessary for activists (even ones with whom they disagree) to stridently compete for their attention. That Hiro Protagonist's world was a satirical dystopia, not a tech-enabled utopia, and that one part of living responsibly in a shared society is being willing to expend thought on other people and points of view.
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TomDavidson
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We technocrats tend to be very, very jealous of our attention and our conveniences. Were the nation to rise up in revolt against tyranny, our first reaction would be one of petulant annoyance:

"I tried to get my coffee today and there was an overturned bus blocking the entrance. Which was on fire. #unionthugs #LATransitAuthority #CaffeineNow"

[ October 02, 2015, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:

One thing is for certain - a world where strangers can't freely approach one another is a pretty cold one. I dare say it's an unnatural, alienating circumstance that would contribute to mental illness. Big cities are known for that.

Who said anything about that? Heck, I live in a big city and I approach people all the time. I am friendly with store clerks and bus drivers, compliment people on their shoes, engage in conversations (where they seem to be welcome) on public transportation (I have started late-night train sing-alongs on more than one occasion), and even hold doors for people. The difference is that (and please pay attention to this part) I am not just being friendly to attractive men because I hope they will eventually have sex with me. And I don't get bent out of shape as the not so rare as you think fedora-guy did when the object of my attention doesn't respond as I would wish. I do not get bent because I don't think that being courteous entitles me to a response.

And I think that we can do more than pity the socially inept; I think we can educate them. Which was what the cartoon was attempting to do.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
What I want from white male technocrats -- and i speak here as a white male technocrat -- is that they not immediately default to the belief that the solutions that have appeared to work for them will work for anyone willing to live in the manner they consider correct

That is an excellent summary of the entire point of the privilege conversation. It isn't about making people feel bad because of the advantages they enjoy. It is about getting people to recognize the advantages that they enjoy and when they need to judge others, or offer advice to others, to do so based on the life situations of the others rather than their own life situations.
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D.W.
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Would you believe a WMT if they told you they do recognize things that worked for them wouldn't work for all?

Do you understand that strident competition of message is often perceived as an attack and that it is human nature to avoid conflict or fight back?

Been too long since I read Snow Crash to comment on the last point.

I'm not jealous of attention. Hell I consciously avoid the spotlight more often than not. It's not annoyance, it's consternation that ANYONE feels attacking people and claiming harm was done to them, by me, is a valid avenue of change. Unless that change is just poking a bear until it eventually eats you.

This method creates troglodytes. It triggers offensive behavior. It causes people to dismiss or worse come to hate those pushing it. I can't see any way this tactic can improve society for others. It's not even as if I'm being asked to sacrifice something in order to improve things for others. It's just misguided frustration at legitimate unfairness, intentionally diluted to the point where it exists only to blow off steam. It is engineered in a way that it can never succeed. The insanity of it bothers me, not the identification of injustice and inequality.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I experience street buskers (people who stand on street corners and go from car to car asking for handouts) all the time too.
That's beggars. Buskers offer some sort of entertainment (music is a baseline standard) as part of their solicitation for tips.
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NobleHunter
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quote:
(I have started late-night train sing-alongs on more than one occasion),
That's it, you are a menace and must be stopped. [Razz]

jasonr, go ahead and pity the socially inept. Just try to do it in a way that doesn't provide cover for the intentionally creepy or that dismisses the concerns of women who don't want to put up with that ****.

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jasonr
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Kmmboots are you a woman? If the answer is yes then of course you can freely approach men and others without being deemed a "creep". That is a male characteristic. Men are not intimidated by women who approach them on the street. I dare say your perspective might just be an example of female privilege(!!!! God forgive me) Indeed there is of course no need for a woman ever to approach a man hoping to have sex - social norms dictate that men do the approaching.

Incidentally I don't mean to play the victim card here. Women don't owe random men on the street a thing. But conversely, I am not about to cry for the woman that occasionally has to deal with unwanted or awkward advances so long as her physical safety isn't threatened. Women don't have to ask, they can sit back and be asked. It's no better or worse than the male experience.

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NobleHunter
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When do you think it becomes apparent her physical safety isn't threatened by an unwanted advance?
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D.W.
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
What I want from white male technocrats -- and i speak here as a white male technocrat -- is that they not immediately default to the belief that the solutions that have appeared to work for them will work for anyone willing to live in the manner they consider correct

That is an excellent summary of the entire point of the privilege conversation. It isn't about making people feel bad because of the advantages they enjoy. It is about getting people to recognize the advantages that they enjoy and when they need to judge others, or offer advice to others, to do so based on the life situations of the others rather than their own life situations.
And "the point" of the other side is that we do recognize them, some if not most act acordingly and some, though fewer of that group point out or criticize the anti-social behavior in others. Not that anyone believes us unless we sharpen our pitchforks, light our torches and follow the mob. And use the proper phrases and labels.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
What I want from white male technocrats -- and i speak here as a white male technocrat -- is that they not immediately default to the belief that the solutions that have appeared to work for them will work for anyone willing to live in the manner they consider correct (i.e. the manner that comes most naturally to them), and a recognition that it is right and correct and necessary for activists (even ones with whom they disagree) to stridently compete for their attention.

Your first point is well-met - though it will not discourage me from offering up "what worked for me". Just like when Hillary confronted those BLM activists with the idea that BLM needed actual policy ideas - sometimes good advice is just that: good advice. I am keenly aware now of how moral authority is conflated with being oppressed, moreso than in the past - and it makes me evaluate individual claims of oppression with scrutiny rather than full-throated support. I am reminded that the volume of a social movement is not necessarily calibrated to the severity of the injustice - that in fact it takes a more equal society in the first place to foster such movements.

On the second point (stridency of activists), I only wish the modern college liberal agreed... but lately I've been disappointed to see this idea take a backseat to censorship of voices with dissenting opinions.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
When do you think it becomes apparent her physical safety isn't threatened by an unwanted advance?

I would argue that should be the basic assumption until evidence of the contrary (e.g. stalking, physically aggressive gestures), given that the vast majority of men are not violent attackers - just like the majority of Muslims are not jihadists (to put this in terms liberals might understand).
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jasonr
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
When do you think it becomes apparent her physical safety isn't threatened by an unwanted advance?

I don't know. When do you think it becomes apparent that her physical safety is threatened?

My sister, by the way, hates beinv told to smile by men on the street. She never mentioned being terrified of those men - just annoyed.

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D.W.
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Want to know what bothers me? Getting into an elevator at the parking garage first being at the buttons and asking a woman "What floor?", then wondering if alarm bells just went off for her. First she’s in an elevator with a man she doesn’t know. Now he initiated verbal contact AND expressed interest in what secluded area of a parking structure (at night often) she was heading. Surely not, she wouldn’t see ME as a potential threat? Not in such a mundane everyday occurrence… would she?

Oh God… the same floor as me! Well at least I hit the button for the floor for myself before asking her. Wow, that would have been positively suspicious had I not!

Now, do I allow her to go first out of the elevator per traditional courtesy guidelines or should I endeavor to be first out the door so there is little chance of her thinking I am following her in preparation of assault? Nah… I’m being paranoid now, that’s just stupid… isn’t it?

Do I say, “Have a good evening.” to this perfect stranger to be polite? Is that more or less awkward or likely to put her at ease?

Welcome to your brain poisoned by SJW reprogramming of every piece of “good manners” you were taught as a kid.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Personally, although not a woman, I know which I would prefer if given the choice. I suspect that most people, including women, would choose unwelcome attention from time to time over invisibility - but of course that is a highly personal thing.

Maybe the place to start would be by discarding the false dichotomy between "no contact" and "freely make unwanted advances"

If you really want to get it right, I suggest you start by making it a point to try only engaging people random that you have little to no sexual interest in for a while, and learning how those conversation go, then go back to engaging people that you might have an interest in <b>as well</b> and follow the scripts that you developed with no interest up to the point here they give you some indication of consent and mutual interest in anything more. In the process factor in that many people you engage with are as significant risk from strangers that will not respect their boundaries and apply reasonable sensitivity to the need to help them feel like they are secure and in control of the scenario, and not in a situation that would trap them into feeling they are being forced to engage if they choose not to.

The issue isn't engaging strangers and striking up conversations-0 it's doing it selectively based not on interest in others as people, but only based on them being objects of desire for you.

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NobleHunter
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quote:
I would argue that should be the basic assumption until evidence of the contrary (e.g. stalking, physically aggressive gestures), given that the vast majority of men are not violent attackers - just like the majority of Muslims are not jihadists (to put this in terms liberals might understand).
The vast majority of men also don't make unwanted advances. There's a liminal stage where someone has put their own wants (to see a smiling woman) over another person's (to make whatever expression she pleases) yet they haven't demonstrated they will take no for an answer. Most of them will, of course, and even those that don't will content themselves with an insult and nothing more. Until the interaction is essentially over, there remains the possibility of it turning ugly.

When a person gets worried about it depends on her temperment and circumstance.

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NobleHunter
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Want to know what bothers me? Getting into an elevator at the parking garage first being at the buttons and asking a woman "What floor?", then wondering if alarm bells just went off for her. First she’s in an elevator with a man she doesn’t know. Now he initiated verbal contact AND expressed interest in what secluded area of a parking structure (at night often) she was heading. Surely not, she wouldn’t see ME as a potential threat? Not in such a mundane everyday occurrence… would she?

Oh God… the same floor as me! Well at least I hit the button for the floor for myself before asking her. Wow, that would have been positively suspicious had I not!

Now, do I allow her to go first out of the elevator per traditional courtesy guidelines or should I endeavor to be first out the door so there is little chance of her thinking I am following her in preparation of assault? Nah… I’m being paranoid now, that’s just stupid… isn’t it?

Do I say, “Have a good evening.” to this perfect stranger to be polite? Is that more or less awkward or likely to put her at ease?

Welcome to your brain poisoned by SJW reprogramming of every piece of “good manners” you were taught as a kid.

Now compare that sense of confusion and worry to the creeping dread that you're in a small, enclosed room with someone who might or might not be a threat and the only place to go is poorly lit and effectively abandoned. And that other person is probably bigger and stronger than you and you have no real way of evaluating what they want or how far they'll go to get it. And (albeit not in your example) they've already demonstrated a willingness to make you uncomfortable by continuing to flirt with you when you've been pretty clear you aren't interested.

I know whose emotional distress I'm more worried about alleviating.

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jasonr
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Pyr I never approached strange women on the street even before I got married so your "advice" is noted but misplaced. Incidentally, nothing you have said leads me to think you have any special insight into the female perspective. The women's studies shtick doesn't have much relevence to the real world. Go and observe how men and women actually interact and then get back to us. Seriously.
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D.W.
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But nobody offers how to alleviate that NH. That's my point. Should I stop, get off the elevator, let her go on her way and wait until either a large enough group or only other males are ready to take the elevator?

The whole point of that little scenario was to show that total comprehension of the situation as it can be perceived by the other person does little to nothing to alleviate the situation.

So is it just a misery (hyperawareness/paranoia/preparedness) loves company situation? Or is there a solution other than patting me on the back for "getting it"?

[ October 02, 2015, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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D.W.
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Well I shouldn't say "nobody offers how to alleviate it." That's not true. Some firearm advocates and other self defense advocates offer suggestions. Suggestions I agree with I might add.
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kmbboots
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Being aware is helpful. The more people are aware, the fewer people will find it acceptable to accost or annoy women in elevators and the more women will be able to relax in such situations. I know it seems far off and hopeless but it isn't. It is better now than it was.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Do you want anything from me other than timidity, self hate and apologizing for the accident of my birth?
Is that seriously what you think making the effort to treat others with respect and as individuals instead of using your social position to force them to conform to your expectations really amounts to?

No one is asking you to feel any apologize for anything, just to actually make the effort to be more empathetic instead of requiring others to react to you according to your expectations.

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NobleHunter
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quote:
But nobody offers how to alleviate that NH. That's my point. Should I stop, get off the elevator, let her go on her way and wait until either a large enough group or only other males are ready to take the elevator?
Create a society where being raped and murdered in a elevator is not treated as a normal risk for women?

If you really think she's freaking out saying, "I'll take the next one," seems like a low-risk alternative though I'm worried it'll turn into a politeness game that'll just make her feel awkward on top whatever else she's feeling. Otherwise stick to the rules of elevator etiquette and go first if you can do so unobtrusively. It won't be hard if she doesn't want to turn her back on you.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Pyr I never approached strange women on the street even before I got married so your "advice" is noted but misplaced. Incidentally, nothing you have said leads me to think you have any special insight into the female perspective. The women's studies shtick doesn't have much relevence to the real world. Go and observe how men and women actually interact and then get back to us. Seriously.

A dodge of having your false dichotomy pointed out with a personal attack based in pure ignorance tacked on. Well played. I'm surprised you didn't finish it off with a little bit of accusatory motive speculation to boot.
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ScottF
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Being aware is helpful.

How so? I lump this in with being aware of my white privilege. Ok, I'm aware. Now what?
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D.W.
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kmbboots and NobleHunter, I expect what you are suggesting seems internally consistent to you but I don't get it.

Good people can now agonize over making someone anxious unintentionally and bad people now KNOW their intended victims are afraid of them. That’s what this “being aware” education gets us.

It's not a hopeless situation; it's a ****ing anti-anxiety medication marketing campaign!

quote:
Is that seriously what you think making the effort to treat others with respect and as individuals instead of using your social position to force them to conform to your expectations really amounts to?
Nope. Never said that, never suggested or inferred that. Not me. Are you stereotyping?
quote:
No one is asking you to feel any apologize for anything, just to actually make the effort to be more empathetic instead of requiring others to react to you according to your expectations.
First, bull****. Second, you have no idea of my levels of empathy or expectations unless I both state it, and am truthful when doing so, which you can’t know.
This response assumes a lot of negative things about me. This is the default mode of speech as seen by those who are labeled as “privileged”. The irony of the whole method of activism blows my mind.

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LetterRip
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NobleHunter,

quote:
Create a society where being raped and murdered in a elevator is not treated as a normal risk for women?
There are basically three groups of rapists - psychopaths, schizophrenics, and severely mentally handicapped (extremely low IQ).

The 'awareness' campaigns don't help because the groups that engage in the behavior either don't care (psychopaths) or can't comprehend (schizophrenics, severely mentally disabled).

For instance the severely mentally handicapped simply can't understand complex abstract ideas including rape and death.

quote:
At the trial of a man with mental retardation convicted of raping and murdering an 87-year old woman, a clinical psychologist testified that while the defendant could acknowledge that rape was "wrong," he was nonetheless not able to offer any explanation for why. "Pressed for an answer, [the defendant] admitted not receiving `permission' for the rape....Pressed further, in desperation, he blurted out, `Maybe it's against her religion!' The jury gasped at such an explanation."29

The inability to comprehend abstract concepts may include the inability to fully understand the meaning of "death" or "murder".

· Morris Mason, whose I.Q. was 62-66, was executed in 1985 in Virginia after being convicted of rape and murder. Before his execution, Mason asked one of his legal advisors for advice on what to wear to his funeral.30

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/ustat/ustat0301-01.htm

[ October 02, 2015, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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NobleHunter
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That's an extremely optimistic view of rapists (at least of the murdered in a elevator sort). But it has nothing to do with what I said. What I meant by normal risk is that it's considered to be an event that a woman should foresee and attempt to mitigate. Basically like currency fluctuations in international trade. It's something she should have plans and tools in place to eliminate or reduce the severity of the risk.

A society where it's not treated as a normal risk would be one where being raped and murdered in an elevator is both actually and perceived to be an outlier; an unknown unknown in the parlance of risk management. In such a society, a woman would have no reason to fear being raped and murdered and a man wouldn't have to worry about being perceived as a potential rapist.

Win win.

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D.W.
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Let me try to put this another way.

One of the chief privileges of privilege is the opportunity to not give a **** about what others think of us.

If the ONLY tools used to encourage self policing within a group are shame, and guilt by association, it's not us, but you who doesn't understand privilege.

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ScottF
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
NobleHunter,

quote:
Create a society where being raped and murdered in a elevator is not treated as a normal risk for women?
There are basically three groups of rapists - psychopaths, schizophrenics, and severely mentally handicapped (extremely low IQ) - the psychopaths will tend to be charming; the schizophrenics will tend to have visible behavioral problems; the extremely low IQ are the only ones who would fit the unwanted attention leading to a risk of rape pattern.

The 'awareness' campaigns don't help because the groups that engage in the behavior either don't care (psychopaths) or can't comprehend (schizophrenics, severely mentally disabled).

Ding ding ding!! Thank you.
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scifibum
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Even if that's true (I actually doubt every drunk college kid who ignores the issue consent qualifies), psychopaths care about status and staying out of jail. Awareness campaigns can help to damage the status of anyone who otherwise thinks they can get away with it, and help create support for reporting and prosecution.
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D.W.
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Even if that's true (I actually doubt every drunk college kid who ignores the issue consent qualifies), psychopaths care about status and staying out of jail. Awareness campaigns can help to damage the status of anyone who otherwise thinks they can get away with it, and help create support for reporting and prosecution.

How? Or have we already achieved this and the types of "awareness campaigns" we are refering to are required to prevent losing it in the future?
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scifibum
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You don't think there's still an issue with victim-blaming that protects the status of some rapists and discourages reporting?
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D.W.
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I do, within the 3 groups LR outlined. Though I see this question as a deflection, not a response to my point.
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NobleHunter
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While they might comprise the majority of attack-in-the-elevator type rapist, those aren't the majority of rapes. I'd need to see substantial data to conclude that the 3 groups represent a significant number of rapists.

ETA: Unless you start defining psychopathy and sociopathy as being willing to rape someone.

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D.W.
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quote:
ETA: Unless you start defining psychopathy and sociopathy as being willing to rape someone.
I do.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Guys who are awkward, unattractive, lacking in charm, will tend to provoke defensive, if not hostile reaction when they try to approach a woman. They will come off as "creeps", even as the more charming, attractive and socially skilled males will not, even if they are every bit as aggressive, if not moreso. I don't think there's anything controversial about this assertion. When you accept it as being true and apply it to the workplace where both consensual office romance and non consensual "harassment" occurs, it is fairly easy to grasp Rock's point.
The entire issue could be mitigated is the basic social expectation that it's okay for men to go from 0 to trying to get sex is put aside, and instead there was a general expectation shared amongst everyone that most social interactions can be taken at face value.

quote:
Everything else falls under "Just trying to get laid." You can't put a man in jail for that! I don't care how hard he tries, that's all he was trying to do!
This is the fundamental problem- right there. "just trying to get laid" is not acceptable outside of a venue where people opt into such advances by coming to it, or have otherwise actively signalled that they'd be open to such a proposition. That's exactly why there's a difference in perception between those that a person welcomes such advances from and those that they don't.

The upshot should not be "well then deal with harassment, because I'm too lazy to put in the work to get to know you as an individual before figuring out if you're interested in such advances" but rather "the social default should be that people don't 'just try to get laid' without having secured some degree of consent to do so.

This would actualyl be of significant _benefit_ to the socially inept, since it would reduce the overall level of defensiveness that makes it hard for them to socially engage in the first place, giving them a chance to learn how to talk with people as people on a more open basis, instead of combining ineptness and objectification into one doubly repellent package.

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ScottF
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:

ETA: Unless you start defining psychopathy and sociopathy as being willing to rape someone.

I'm no psychologist but I certainly would. Or more accurately, anyone willing to rape someone indicates they are psychopathic and/or sociopathic.
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