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Author Topic: The Culture of Victimhood
NobleHunter
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So every rapist is a sociopath or a psychopath? In a non-medical sense or do you think they could be diagnosed?

If willingness to rape is a symptom of a mental illness, how should it be treated?

[ October 02, 2015, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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LetterRip
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scifibum,

deliberate ignoring of consent is essentially exclusively psychopaths. Most of the drunk college kids is neither would be lawfully able to give consent; even grayer is that both men and women in college get drunk as an excuse to have sex (guys to claim beer goggles for having sex with a women who is 'beneath their standards' and women to have sex and excuse it on an external agency to avoid self judgement).

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
While they might comprise the majority of attack-in-the-elevator type rapist, those aren't the majority of rapes. I'd need to see substantial data to conclude that the 3 groups represent a significant number of rapists.

ETA: Unless you start defining psychopathy and sociopathy as being willing to rape someone.

It doesn't even require nominal willingness since, in a vast majority of cases, the perpetrator isn't even fully aware that their actions amount to rape or that have failed to get consent or removed he other persons ability to express it in some way.
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D.W.
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There is no such thing as a mentally healthy man who rapes someone, either intentionally or because they honestly believed "she wanted it".

There ARE a lot of mentally unhealthy men out there.

Most victim-blaming comes in two forms. That put forward by mentally unhealthy men who wish to preserve fertile hunting grounds to perpetrate their assaults; and as a reaction to perceived guilt by association just because we are men. The same as demonstrated here through accusations of privilege.

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D.W.
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quote:
If willingness to rape is a symptom of a mental illness, how should it be treated?
subcutaneous lead therapy may work.
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ScottF
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
... in a vast majority of cases, the perpetrator isn't even fully aware that their actions amount to rape or that have failed to get consent or removed he other persons ability to express it in some way.

Unless you have some stats to support this I say bull.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
quote:
Is that seriously what you think making the effort to treat others with respect and as individuals instead of using your social position to force them to conform to your expectations really amounts to?
Nope. Never said that, never suggested or inferred that. Not me. Are you stereotyping?
No- I'm responding to your explicit words. You're the own who put it that way. I'm perfectly fine with you backing away from the absurd characterization that you expressed if you don't want to own it.
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ScottF
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
quote:
If willingness to rape is a symptom of a mental illness, how should it be treated?
subcutaneous lead therapy may work.
I was going to say castration, but your solution is certainly more permanent.
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LetterRip
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NH,

I gave three categories, not two.

Psychopath, Schizophrenic, or severely mentally disabled. Yes these can be diagnosed (psychopath isn't in the DSM it would be anti-social personality disorder with specific scale subtype)

Also the severely mentally disabled who commit rapes usually have other comorbidities (including schizophrenia).

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
scifibum,

deliberate ignoring of consent is essentially exclusively psychopaths. Most of the drunk college kids is neither would be lawfully able to give consent; even grayer is that both men and women in college get drunk as an excuse to have sex (guys to claim beer goggles for having sex with a women who is 'beneath their standards' and women to have sex and excuse it on an external agency to avoid self judgement).

While people do get drunk for the reasons you specified, the argument "neither could give consent so no rape was possible" that you are implying (perhaps unintentionally) is both stupid and dangerous.

I can hit someone in the face with a hammer. Whether that's a crime does not depend on how many of the two of us is drunk. Rape is forcing sex on someone who has not consented, and that is a crime no matter how many of the people involved are drunk.

Consider the scenario where a drunk man is pushing himself on a drunk woman who is screaming "no" and trying to get away. If that's rape, then "they were both drunk" argument doesn't hold water.

I am not saying every drunken sexual encounter involved a rape. I am, however, saying that consent matters no matter how many people are drunk. And when it comes to "awareness" campaigns, one of the things we need to get through people's dumb skulls is that not fighting back or not saying no isn't the same as consent.

BTW, "deliberate" ignoring of consent isn't a very good standard. We need to eliminate the "didn't think about it" and "convinced that they wouldn't have gone this far if they didn't want it" stuff too.

[ October 02, 2015, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: scifibum ]

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LetterRip
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Pychopaths are fully aware that they are committing rape - they simply don't care. Their calculus of whether to engage in an action doesn't include empathy, it is only their personal benefit versus the risk and degree of consequences. Psychopaths account for over 50% of rapes (they are over 50% of convicted rapists, and probably make a dramatically higher percentage of those who haven't been caught or convicted).

Schizophrenics and the severely mentally disabled may not be aware they are committing a rape, or why what they are doing is wrong.

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NobleHunter
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I ignored severe mental disability because there's no basis to think it's a significant factor. Might make for splashy cases but not frequent ones.

DW, that seems like a priori reasoning that's pretty alarming. For one, it allows the defense of "it's not his fault, he's crazy." For another it enables a worldview where all criminal activity is caused by mental illness. I trust it's apparent why that's alarming.
quote:
subcutaneous lead therapy may work.
I believe there are major questions on if it's constitutional to execute the mentally ill.
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D.W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
quote:
Is that seriously what you think making the effort to treat others with respect and as individuals instead of using your social position to force them to conform to your expectations really amounts to?
Nope. Never said that, never suggested or inferred that. Not me. Are you stereotyping?
No- I'm responding to your explicit words. You're the own who put it that way. I'm perfectly fine with you backing away from the absurd characterization that you expressed if you don't want to own it.
I'm posting fast without a lot of proofreading because this topic does get me a bit wound up.
Please explain how your response relates to what I said? This is what you quoted by the way…

Do you want anything from me other than timidity, self hate and apologizing for the accident of my birth?

Please show me how that statement by me, allowed you to conclude I’m not willing to treat others with respect and as individuals. How does that statement allow you to conclude I seek to force anyone to do anything? What hints does it give you regarding my expectations of others?

The point of the quoted statement is that I see no other motive or goal beyond these as possible results of the tactics being employed. Not that I’m speculating on an ulterior motive than one stated, but that nothing of substance was stated in the first place and no other conclusion can be rationally arrived at.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Psychopaths account for over 50% of rapes (they are over 50% of convicted rapists, and probably make a dramatically higher percentage of those who haven't been caught or convicted).
That's a poor metric to go by, since most rapes are not officially reported, and of those that are reported only a fraction are prosecuted. At that point, you're only looking at those that, once reported, caught, and tried, weren't able to avoid conviction.
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LetterRip
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scifibum,

quote:
I can hit someone in the face with a hammer. Whether that's a crime does not depend on how many of the two of us is drunk. Rape is forcing sex on someone who has not consented, and that is a crime no matter how many of the people involved are drunk.
Lawfully rape is any sex without consent - force is not a necessary factor for the legal definition. If the individuals judgement is compromised due to inebriation then they lawfully didn't consent even if they appeared to consent and no force was used. If force or coercion were used it would be rape regardless of inebriation.
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LetterRip
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scifibum,

I was referring to the case where both appear to give consent, but lawfully neither is competent to give consent due to both being inebriated.

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D.W.
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
I ignored severe mental disability because there's no basis to think it's a significant factor. Might make for splashy cases but not frequent ones.

DW, that seems like a priori reasoning that's pretty alarming. For one, it allows the defense of "it's not his fault, he's crazy." For another it enables a worldview where all criminal activity is caused by mental illness. I trust it's apparent why that's alarming.
quote:
subcutaneous lead therapy may work.
I believe there are major questions on if it's constitutional to execute the mentally ill.
I don’t see this as a slippery slope of all crime being the result of mental illness. Unless you are of the opinion that someone can be so sexually frustrated as to excuse rape in SOME situations, I don’t even understand the suggestion.

As to the execution of mentally ill question. I was in no way suggesting that as a realistic or legal means of dealing with the issue. Just that if I could snap my fingers and every man or woman willing to rape someone fell over dead, I would not hesitate to do so.

[ October 02, 2015, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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NobleHunter
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quote:
Psychopaths account for over 50% of rapes (they are over 50% of convicted rapists, and probably make a dramatically higher percentage of those who haven't been caught or convicted
Unless they're predisposed towards rapes that are easier to convict, i.e. assault by a stranger. I would expect that date-rape and other rapes where the perpetrator is known to the victim would have a much lower incidence of both psychopaths and conviction.

A problem with rape and alchohol is that if both parties were too drunk to consent, preconceptions about who's the "active" party end up being used to determine which one was the rapist. Especially since that level of intoxication affects memory neither party may be able to testify to the precise nature of events.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Do you want anything from me other than timidity, self hate and apologizing for the accident of my birth?

Please show me how that statement by me, allowed you to conclude I’m not willing to treat others with respect and as individuals. How does that statement allow you to conclude I seek to force anyone to do anything? What hints does it give you regarding my expectations of others?

The fact that it was made in the context of a discussion about treating others with respect and as individuals and making the effort to recognize when you're applying social power that you have in ways that amount to force on others.

If I as thing A of you (Recognize that these behaviors are harmful and communicate disrespect and social dominance so you should make and effort to avoid them) and you come back suggesting that you're being asked to do thing B (timidity, leaf loathing, constant apology) then it's _you_ not me equating the two.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
As to the execution of mentally ill question. I was in no way suggesting that as a realistic or legal means of dealing with the issue. Just that if I could snap my fingers and every man or woman willing to rape someone fell over dead, I would not hesitate to do so.
What about the sizable chunk of people that wouldn't do it if you just called it rape, but would if you described it without using the word rape? (And that's only accounting for physical force and not applying social or mental pressure to wear someone down till they give in)
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LetterRip
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Psychopathy is a lack of 'reflexive empathy' - if you see someone (person, animal, animation, etc.) in pain, crying, or emotional distress - you will have a reflexive experience of that same emotional distress. Psychopaths lack that. They can do deliberative empathy - they can mentally place themselves in someone elses position and understand what feelings or emotions might occur in that situation.

The reflexive empathy makes it unlikely for non psychopaths to rape (reflexive empathy can be reduced in normal individuals via dehumanization, and through playing on group loyalty)

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D.W.
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Prtolin,
You are making assumptions.
The context from me is that as someone who IS aware, is NOT being disrespectful, does NOT apply social power, other than by the fact of drawing breath, What exactly do you want?
You obviously do not believe as I do that the above is the vast majority of people hearing your message. Yet that message is caustic, presumptuous and insulting. All of which could be excused because… privilege. However once stripped of these traits, there is NO discernible substance for those described above.

It is an empty message. That is your context.

correction: There are those who ARE offenders. They are also aware and no education will correct their behavior. What's plan B?

[ October 02, 2015, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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NobleHunter
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quote:
I don’t see this as a slippery slope of all crime being the result of mental illness. Unless you are of the opinion that someone can be so sexually frustrated as to excuse rape in SOME situations, I don’t even understand the suggestion.
As to the execution of mentally ill question. I was in no way suggesting that as a realistic or legal means of dealing with the issue. Just that if I could snap my fingers and every man or woman willing to rape someone fell over dead, I would not hesitate to do so.

Part of it is just quibbling over pseudo-medical terminology; if something is going to be attributed to actual mental illness the proper response is treatment, not punishment. It's an agency thing.

The other part is that there are cultural factors that encourage some types of rape to be thought of as sex which was a bad idea, like cheating or an ill-advised one night stand. That the consequences and effects on the victim are minimized to the point where the perpatrator doesn't need to medically lack empathy but rather not weight it properly. So he could feel regret and remorse and guilt--and might later-- but at the moment of crisis he's stuck in a mindset that's similar to every other chain of reasoning that leads to a bad decision.

The vast majority of crime (especially ones that get you sent to prison) are the result of irrational decisions. And just because someone makes irrational decisions doesn't mean they're crazy. Being crazy means one is unable to make rational decisions (either at all or under certain circumstances).

Uh, to sum up, if rape=crazy and rape=bad decisions and crime=bad decisions, then crime=crazy.

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D.W.
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quote:
Uh, to sum up, if rape=crazy and rape=bad decisions and crime=bad decisions, then crime=crazy.
I accept that crime can result from desparation. Being horny is not however an excuseable type of desparation in my book. That is just plain crazy.

And yes, I know that not all rape is an issue of sexual release/desire... The alternatives do not however conflict with my judgement as crazy.

[ October 02, 2015, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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LetterRip
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NH,

quote:
Unless they're predisposed towards rapes that are easier to convict, i.e. assault by a stranger. I would expect that date-rape and other rapes where the perpetrator is known to the victim would have a much lower incidence of both psychopaths and conviction.
You probably have the common misconception that psychopath means 'sadistic psychopath' - sadism and psychopathy are completely separate mental disorders.

Psychopaths are by far the largest perpetrator of date and acquaintance rape - abuse of trust is one of the more potent tools of the psychopath, they can also use social manipulation to reduce the risk of their victim reporting them.

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LetterRip
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NH,

there is no treatment for psychopathy - you can only identify them and isolate them from the rest of the population to prevent future harm - or create a system where they believe the risk of getting caught and punished is high enough to make it rational for them to not re offend.

[ October 02, 2015, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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JoshCrow
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Hmm... although I'd like to imagine that all rapists are de facto psychopaths/sociopaths or mentally dull, I'm not convinced.

Look at someone like Bill Cosby. There's an example of someone I can think of who would seem to be possessed of empathy in most situations, but obviously deeply lacking in concern for the women he predated on. It strikes me as naive to call him a "psychopath" - one cannot be a psychopath in just one area. It's pretty much all or nothing. One would have to conclude that Cosby was always a psychopath and was just really, really good at pretending to experience any empathy at all.

I don't buy that. The guy is a rapist and has problems with women - he's not a psycho in the clinical sense, unless he is also a masterful kind of genius. That he works in comedy is particularly telling - I doubt comedy can be mastered without a working empathy system. A comedian is basically an expert on human connection. It's probably why he resorted to drugging his victims to achieve his ends.

[ October 02, 2015, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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D.W.
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Time for round 2 of prohibition, cameras in the bedroom and disclaimer contracts included with every condom. We'll get this sorted out eventually!
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
The context from me is that as someone who IS aware, is NOT being disrespectful, does NOT apply social power, other than by the fact of drawing breath, What exactly do you want?
That's sort of a meaningless question, isn't it? If someone is aware and is making the effort to not engage in oppressive social behaviors, they're also very likely to also understand the need to help others understand the problematic nature of such and either helping point them out or at least no arguing against others that are doing so. In any case they certainly wouldn't be presenting absurd assertion about anyone wanting them to do things that no one has asked anyone to do.
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NobleHunter
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Citations would be awfully helpful, LR. You need more to clarify that rape isn't being used as indicator for psychopathy. In the same way that suicide became a key indicator for being non compos mentis back when suicide was illegal.

Treatment will become possible sooner or later.

DW, my main point is that if you accept rapist=crazy then the moral (IMO) position becomes treatment rather than punishment. It's fundamentally at odds with the kill them all approach.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
correction: There are those who ARE offenders. They are also aware and no education will correct their behavior. What's plan B?
The vast majority of offenders in this case are just following what they've been socially conditioned to believe is acceptable behavior and have no awareness of the inherent harm in it.

The small handful that actively and intentionally perpetrate harm really aren't relevant, as they majority of the harm they do only arises from adding onto the current onslaught of little attacks- once the majority learns to stop participating their actions don't amount to much any more, and fall within the bounds of legal action if they try to escalate to the point that they do.

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D.W.
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quote:
If someone is aware and is making the effort to not engage in oppressive social behaviors, they're also very likely to also understand the need to help others understand the problematic nature of such and either helping point them out or at least no arguing against others that are doing so.
So you want nothing further. I’m no longer part of the problem? I just need to shut up about having my feelings hurt because the “awareness education” obviously worked on me and many others? It had nothing to do with us being good people and possessing at least a moderate amount of empathy and an awareness of political power balance and history?

Congrats. Way to go. I have high hopes for seeing an end of social injustices any day now.

It was an honest question. I didn’t know I had reached the highest level of SJW enlightenment. Is the door to door proselytizing optional or compulsory? Must I be insulting in the process or is that up to me to decide?

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
kmbboots and NobleHunter, I expect what you are suggesting seems internally consistent to you but I don't get it.

Good people can now agonize over making someone anxious unintentionally and bad people now KNOW their intended victims are afraid of them. That’s what this “being aware” education gets us.

It's not a hopeless situation; it's a ****ing anti-anxiety medication marketing campaign!

quote:
Is that seriously what you think making the effort to treat others with respect and as individuals instead of using your social position to force them to conform to your expectations really amounts to?
Nope. Never said that, never suggested or inferred that. Not me. Are you stereotyping?
quote:
No one is asking you to feel any apologize for anything, just to actually make the effort to be more empathetic instead of requiring others to react to you according to your expectations.
First, bull****. Second, you have no idea of my levels of empathy or expectations unless I both state it, and am truthful when doing so, which you can’t know.
This response assumes a lot of negative things about me. This is the default mode of speech as seen by those who are labeled as “privileged”. The irony of the whole method of activism blows my mind.

You could start by recognizing that this is not all about you.
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LetterRip
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JoshCrow,

quote:
Look at someone like Bill Cosby. There's an example of someone I can think of who would seem to be possessed of empathy in most situations, but obviously deeply lacking in concern for the women he predated on.
The problem is that smart disciplined psychopaths are amazingly good at cultivating whatever public image they desire. They cultivate particular images because it protects them from accusations.

quote:
It strikes me as naive to call him a "psychopath" - one cannot be a psychopath in just one area. It's pretty much all or nothing. One would have to conclude that Cosby was always a psychopath and was just really, really good at pretending to experience any empathy at all.
Most psychopaths are superb at pretending empathy. They only lack reflexive empathy - they are experts at deliberative empathy, which helps them to quickly assess the emotional needs of others and allows them to successfully manipulate.
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D.W.
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quote:
You could start by recognizing that this is not all about you.
I'm questioning if it's about anyone who wouldn't perpetuate the behavior, we would like to see ended, anyway.

Do you believe there are still those out there who both need education AND would change upon receiving it?

Can you treat empathy deficiency in adults? If so, is informing others of their privilege part of a treatment plan?

[ October 02, 2015, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
Most psychopaths are superb at pretending empathy. They only lack reflexive empathy - they are experts at deliberative empathy, which helps them to quickly assess the emotional needs of others and allows them to successfully manipulate.

I think you are actually buying into a popular myth, rather than a clinical definition - and a quick investigation into it backs me up. PsychCentral says "psychopaths tend to be pretty quickly "outed" for their antisocial behaviors, because the charm is purely superficial and easily detected over time with greater exposure to the psychopath."

I don't doubt that there are master manipulators out there, but I think you are confusing the Hollywood-villain style psychopath with the more common, garden-variety.

Look at the questions on the quiz here that tests for it... do these match up with your idea about "reflexive empathy"?

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kmbboots
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Absolutely. It will take some time though. There is a station devoted to old games shows. I enjoy watching old programs and am astonished at the things that perfectly nice, kind, good people would say to women or minorities. Culture does change. So do people. Goodness knows my own views and behaviour has changed and I'm sure will continue to change.

Also, I imagine that internet cartoons featuring punk fairies is aimed at young people whose notions of how people should act is still in the formative stage.

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LetterRip
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JoshCrow,

quote:
think you are actually buying into a popular myth, rather than a clinical definition - and a quick investigation into it backs me up. PsychCentral says "psychopaths tend to be pretty quickly "outed" for their antisocial behaviors, because the charm is purely superficial and easily detected over time with greater exposure to the psychopath."
Psychcentrals quiz is fairly useless. If you want a better characteristic based definition, psychology today does a decent job.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindmelding/201301/what-is-psychopath-0

Lack of reflexive empathy is an operational definition from recent neurobiology research.

quote:
Each patient was then shown movies of people hurting each other while brain activity was measured using fMRI. First, patients were simply told to watch the movies carefully. Later, Harma Meffert, the doctoral student who conducted the study (now at NIMH in Bethesda) went into the scanner room and slapped the patients on their hands to localize brain regions involved in feeling touch and pain. We could then zoom into these brain regions to see if the patients activated their own pain while viewing that of others. We did the same with 26 men of similar age and IQ. The results of the study, which are published today in the journal Brain, indicate that the vicarious activation of motor, somatosensory and emotional brain regions was much lower in the patients with psychopathy than in the normal subjects. The theory seemed right: their empathy was reduced, and this could explain why they committed such terrible crimes without feeling guilt.

But then, how can they be so charming at times? I remember chatting with one of the patients, Patient 13, a particularly severe psychopath (he had scored the full 40 points on the psychopathy checklist). Surrounded by the guards, he seemed a most pleasant person. He was smiling, engaging, and seemed to feel exactly what we wanted from him. Many of our ‘normal’ participants seemed rough and unfriendly in comparison. Valeria Gazzola, with whom I lead the lab, suggested that we let the patients watch the movies again, but asking them to try and empathize with the victims in the movies. What we found was that this simple instruction sufficed to boost the empathic activation in their brain to a level that was hard to distinguish from that of the healthy controls. Suddenly, the psychopaths seemed as empathic as the next guy. Their empathy was switched on.

Reduced spontaneous (back) but normal deliberate (front) brain activity in psychopathic criminals while viewing movies
So psychopathic individuals do not simply lack empathy. Instead, it seems as though for most of us, empathy is the default mode. If we see a victim, we share her pain. For the psychopathic criminals of our study, empathy seemed to be a voluntary activity. If they want to, they can empathize, and that explains how they can be so charming, and maybe so manipulative. Once they have seduced you into doing what serves their purpose, the effortful empathy would though probably disappear again. Free of the constraints of empathy, they is then little to stop them from using violence.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-empathic-brain/201307/inside-the-mind-psychopath-empathic-not-always


The dumb psychopaths with poor impulse control are quickly outed - that doesn't describe all and perhaps not even the majority of psychopaths - poor impulse control is independent of psychopathy (Rorschach found that psychopaths actually had above average impulse control while others have found below average impulse control - this is probably because most research on psychopaths are incarcerated which will obviously have an enriched sample of those that lack impulse control). About 2% of the population are psychopaths - the smarter ones tend to be heavily over represented among politicians, executives, clergy, and entertainers - anywhere there is power.

[ October 02, 2015, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Do you believe there are still those out there who both need education AND would change upon receiving it?
Yes. Every construction worker who leans on a wall in front of a walking woman, obstructing her path, to tell her that he likes her skirt and she should smile more both needs education and is fully capable of changing upon receiving that education. And certainly his son can learn not to learn from his example.

------------

LR, I think you're falling into your usual trap of coming up with "neat" rationales for more complicated topics. I can't, for example, find anything that suggests that your rather pat Triune explanation for rape is in fact valid. It's a nice and pretty theory, but I don't see evidence for it.

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LetterRip
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Also lack of reflexive empathy is probably both necessary and sufficient to give a score of psychopathy on the standard diagnostic tools. Impulse control is neither necessary, nor sufficient.
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