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jasonr
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Shocking police shooting video

This is the most complete video documentary of a police shooting I have ever seen. This cop is going down for murder. No way a jury acquits.

I can only presume the Toronto police motto must be "better a thousand civilians die than one cop get injured"

[ October 22, 2015, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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Wayward Son
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I could see the cop's gun shooting while the perp was down. I only counted seven times, but apparently it was nine.

Horrible.

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Fenring
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"Make sure he's completely dead, not just mostly dead." Police officers who took their training from The Princess Bride. They are the brute squad.
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TomDavidson
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I am grimly amused by the decision to -- after he has already been killed in two separate rains of bullets -- zap him with a taser as well before finally approaching.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I am grimly amused by the decision to -- after he has already been killed in two separate rains of bullets -- zap him with a taser as well before finally approaching.

It's made only the more 'comical' in light of the fact that I've watched several such videos where a bullet-ridden corpse is cattle prodded for good measure. It's sort of the majestic culmination of a violent tour de force: "And stay down!!!" Just as if it was taking place in a zombie movie.
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jasonr
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Note the streetcar driver doesn't flee immediately, but makes the attempt to talk Yatim down before leaving. He isn't freaking out. That was very brave of him, which is in stark contrast to what the fully armed and equipped cops did facing a lone man bottled up on an empty streetcar.

I'm not expecting officers to fling their bodies heroically at knife wielding maniacs, but surely it is incumbent on them to accept at least a minimal degree of physical peril to do their jobs. They didn't even have to engage Yatim and could conceivably have just shut the doors on him.

Incidentally, with his penis hanging out, it was pretty apparent that Yatim was having a mental breakdown, which doesn't negate the physical threat he posed, but does raise the good point that he was every bit their responsibility to protect as a member of the public. Despite being on a crowded streetcar and wielding a knife he didn't so much as scratch any of the passengers, so there was no evidence that he was actually intending to harm anyone.

Taking a page from the police playbook, I imagine lifeguards would stand on the shore and watch a man drown on the premise that they should not be required to risk drowning should the victim pull them down.

Many of us were raised to see police as heroes, bravely risking their lives daily "to serve and protect". But maybe that attitude needs a rethink since their official policy seems to be to throw members of the public under a bus to preclude any personal risk. It reminds me a bit of the stories of cops just casually shooting family pets as a precaution on any raid - after all, a dog could bite and better to riddle it with bullets than incur the slightest risk. Didn't they throw a grenade into a crib? Can't be too careful. Babies can bite after all. One nick to the jugular and a baby bite could be deadly.

[ October 22, 2015, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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scifibum
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I also wonder what kind of training they received in de-escalating violent or potentially violent situations.

Of course, it's possible this is just a bad cop, but the others with him didn't seem too alarmed at the shooting.

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kmbboots
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Or the one who, while shooting a dog who was excited but not growling, managed to shoot a little girl-and then left the scene without giving aid or calling for assistance. He wasn't responding to a crime either, a woman has called 911 because she had accidently cut herself and needed help.
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Fenring
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Or all the others. I have, to date, never seen one single video of a police shooting where the officer promptly began life-saving techniques or took any steps at all to prevent the person dying. More often it seems the officers involved in shooting actually take pains to see to it that the people who are shot never get up again. It's far tidier that way, since a dead person cannot speak for themselves and relatives always had to rely on the police report for facts. At least now there are frequently videos.
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jasonr
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More footage, this time with audio. You can hear the shots. This cop is toast.

Full video with Audio

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Rafi
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quote:

Incidentally, with his penis hanging out, it was pretty apparent that Yatim was having a mental breakdown...

Not really. The vast majority of incidents I am aware of that involved erratic behavior and public nudity were the result of drug abuse. In the majority of those incidents, the perpetrator was highly unpredictable and frequently violent.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Note the streetcar driver doesn't flee immediately, but makes the attempt to talk Yatim down before leaving. He isn't freaking out. That was very brave of him, which is in stark contrast to what the fully armed and equipped cops did facing a lone man bottled up on an empty streetcar.

I'm not expecting officers to fling their bodies heroically at knife wielding maniacs, but surely it is incumbent on them to accept at least a minimal degree of physical peril to do their jobs. They didn't even have to engage Yatim and could conceivably have just shut the doors on him.

Incidentally, with his penis hanging out, it was pretty apparent that Yatim was having a mental breakdown, which doesn't negate the physical threat he posed, but does raise the good point that he was every bit their responsibility to protect as a member of the public. Despite being on a crowded streetcar and wielding a knife he didn't so much as scratch any of the passengers, so there was no evidence that he was actually intending to harm anyone.

Taking a page from the police playbook, I imagine lifeguards would stand on the shore and watch a man drown on the premise that they should not be required to risk drowning should the victim pull them down.

Many of us were raised to see police as heroes, bravely risking their lives daily "to serve and protect". But maybe that attitude needs a rethink since their official policy seems to be to throw members of the public under a bus to preclude any personal risk. It reminds me a bit of the stories of cops just casually shooting family pets as a precaution on any raid - after all, a dog could bite and better to riddle it with bullets than incur the slightest risk. Didn't they throw a grenade into a crib? Can't be too careful. Babies can bite after all. One nick to the jugular and a baby bite could be deadly.

Current police training heavily emphasizes the safety of the officers over the safety of the "bad guys". The "bad guys" being whomever the police are interacting with.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
Current police training heavily emphasizes the safety of the officers over the safety of the "bad guys". The "bad guys" being whomever the police are interacting with.

This is more or less the main issue. When police use terminology amongst themselves like "the enemy" to describe citizens in the Baltimore turmoil, they have become de facto paramilitary mercenaries. Any suspected person is now "the enemy", or "bad guys" as you put it. There is no longer any sense of stewardship in law enforcement. For some officers we know this isn't true, but they are the old guard and are coming up against the newer generation of aggressive officers who do things a very different way.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
For some officers we know this isn't true, but they are the old guard and are coming up against the newer generation of aggressive officers who do things a very different way.
I don't think "old guard" is the proper segment- in fact, the longer an officer has been on the job, the more likely it is that any idealism that they may have has has been burnt out or suppressed, particularly in the face of cynicism from more jaded members.

This has been a problem for decades, the only major things that have changed is common, easy access to personal video equipment so that it can't be brushed under the rug, and general scope creep to the point that it's become harder and harder for the general public to other the victims of such violence and similarly wave them away as bad guys

(Though Rafi above certainly is making a good go of it- completely glossing over the fact that a breakdown is a breakdown regardless of whether drugs were a factor in it or not. Vilifying victims for drug use is precisely one of the ways that attention has been waved away from the problem by giving people an imaginary moral high ground to believe that it's only other, bad people getting what they deserve.)

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TomDavidson
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There's a popular myth that people hopped up on drugs regularly become pain-resistant, nigh-unstoppable monsters who can only be brought down with lethal force. So in Rafi's defense, it's not so much "he was probably on drugs, so he deserved to die" as "he was probably on drugs, so the only way to be sure he'd stay down was to destroy his brain with bullets from a safe distance."
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
[QUOTE]
(Though Rafi above certainly is making a good go of it- completely glossing over the fact that a breakdown is a breakdown regardless of whether drugs were a factor in it or not. Vilifying victims for drug use is precisely one of the ways that attention has been waved away from the problem by giving people an imaginary moral high ground to believe that it's only other, bad people getting what they deserve.)

[Roll Eyes] Just gonna go with the making things up strategy are you?
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AI Wessex
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Don't get frustrated, you'll have another bite at the apple with the endless Planned Parenthood hearings that will start up soon. Patience is the key when waiting for something to arrive that likely never will. I commend you for your forbearance in not having acted out until now.
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TomDavidson
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The trick with any sort of ongoing, open-ended investigation like this is to hope that someone says something ill-considered or easily misconstrued while on the stand, at which point you can pretend that this was the heart of the issue and a serious matter that justifies your mock outrage.
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AI Wessex
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That was the Republican objective in the Benghazi! hearings Thursday. Hillary should get both overtime and hazardous duty pay for enduring it without cracking and giving them that gift.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
[QUOTE]
(Though Rafi above certainly is making a good go of it- completely glossing over the fact that a breakdown is a breakdown regardless of whether drugs were a factor in it or not. Vilifying victims for drug use is precisely one of the ways that attention has been waved away from the problem by giving people an imaginary moral high ground to believe that it's only other, bad people getting what they deserve.)

[Roll Eyes] Just gonna go with the making things up strategy are you?
Hey, you're the one who brought up the spurious reference to drugs. If you're saying that you were just talking to hear your self talk and didn't actually have anything meaningful that you were trying to say, then I['ll be happy to accept that backpedal.
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jasonr
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I have read in other reports that Yatim had some marijuana and cocaine in his system.

Given that he had no history of mental illness at the time, I'd say the drug hypothesis is a sound one.

However, I don't really see it making a heck of alot of difference. This isn't a case like Michael Brown where we need to evaluate the credibility of the officers in terms of what Yatim said or did or how he came across to them - the video speaks for itself - he was waving around a knife with his penis hanging out. Who cares what the underlying reason was?

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The Drake
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I'm sorry, I don't get the controversy here. Some ******* threatens to stab citizens, and then gets shot? Seems fair to me.
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AI Wessex
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If he was aggressively attempting to stab anyone. From the tram video it doesn't appear that he was, and besides, he was distracted by what his other hand was occupied with. He apparently wasn't threatening the officer who shot him, either.

I think the rule is that once an officer determines that he has to shoot it doesn't matter how many shots he fires. It's the justification for the first one that matters legally. The tasering was bizarre.

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
[QUOTE]
(Though Rafi above certainly is making a good go of it- completely glossing over the fact that a breakdown is a breakdown regardless of whether drugs were a factor in it or not. Vilifying victims for drug use is precisely one of the ways that attention has been waved away from the problem by giving people an imaginary moral high ground to believe that it's only other, bad people getting what they deserve.)

[Roll Eyes] Just gonna go with the making things up strategy are you?
Hey, you're the one who brought up the spurious reference to drugs. If you're saying that you were just talking to hear your self talk and didn't actually have anything meaningful that you were trying to say, then I['ll be happy to accept that backpedal.
Doubling down eh? All I said was public nudity during erratic and criminal behavior is often associated with drug abuse and that mental illness is not the obvious answer one would think it is. That's all. If you want to infer something from that and make some things up, well, enjoy that.
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Rafi
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Wait, this happened 2 years ago. Toxicology is available.
quote:
Yatim had “moderate to moderately high levels of ecstasy in his system at the time of his death, as well as marijuana and a trace amount of cocaine" according to the autopsy report.
So yeah, he was under the influence of drugs. Exactly what I said. Not sure how much this contributed to his feeling the need to wave his crank in the air like he just don't care but with no history of mental illness it's probably a safe bet it was a pretty significant part of it.
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TomDavidson
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So which of those drugs, exactly, made shooting him several times seem like a necessary response?
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by The Drake:
I'm sorry, I don't get the controversy here. Some ******* threatens to stab citizens, and then gets shot? Seems fair to me.

Really? You think drug use or mental illness (or some combination of both) should carry an automatic death sentence? No trial; just execution?
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
So which of those drugs, exactly, made shooting him several times seem like a necessary response?

If you read carefully, I think you may notice I've never implied these drugs were the rationale for shooting him. I merely point out that it's more likely to be the reason for exposing himself rather than mental illness. Lighten up on the trolling, bro. You don't have to do it every post.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
So which of those drugs, exactly, made shooting him several times seem like a necessary response?

If you read carefully, I think you may notice I've never implied these drugs were the rationale for shooting him. I merely point out that it's more likely to be the reason for exposing himself rather than mental illness. Lighten up on the trolling, bro. You don't have to do it every post.
So why did you think it relevant to this conversation?
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TomDavidson
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I'd guess that his second sentence -- that, in his experience, drugs make people unpredictable and violent -- is what he thinks makes it relevant. I don't see why this applies to this case, mind, unless he believes that thinking someone is on drugs is a valid rationale for a policeman to murder somebody.
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Fenring
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I guess the argument would be that if he was "crazy" then he could be reasoned with in some way, whereas a drug-induced mania would not be subject to reason in the same way...?

In the case of someone impaired beyond the capacity to reason then the recourse should be to incapacitate them or wait them out until they go to sleep or something. It's true that if time was of the essence then maybe waiting wouldn't work, but that wasn't the case here. They could have just stood there all night waiting for him to get tired. And this is setting aside the pathetic fact that police forces barely even give lip service to deploying officers with efficient non-lethal weapons. I'm reminded of the sick sticks from Minority Report, but there is also the possibility of stun darts and other things. If dart guns can bring down an elephant I trust they can create one designed for the police, and yet they still rely on the much maligned taser which is a quasi-melee weapon. It seems that neither the police nor civilians appreciate the use of tasers, so I don't even know why it's a thing.

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
So which of those drugs, exactly, made shooting him several times seem like a necessary response?

If you read carefully, I think you may notice I've never implied these drugs were the rationale for shooting him. I merely point out that it's more likely to be the reason for exposing himself rather than mental illness. Lighten up on the trolling, bro. You don't have to do it every post.
So why did you think it relevant to this conversation?
You don't believe Yatim's state of mind has any bearing on this? A guy is waving his junk around and wielding a knife, you don't think there is some relevance as to the threat someone might be to others or is this just boys being boys?

I have not seen much about the case although I know the officer was charged and is being tried. That's a good thing it seems. However, I believe the defense will address the drug influence and threat is presented as part of th rationale for he officers reaction. Is that a reasonable defense? Despite our forum troll's constant whining, I really don't know but a drug crazed knife wielding attacker threatening a cop seems kind of relevant.

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Fenring
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The point is that Yatim's state of mind and intention is irrelevant in the discussion of whether he presented a material threat to the officers. If he didn't then shooting is murder. Since he was standing in the streetcar and the cops were down on the street it seems almost inconceivable to argue that he was materially threatening them, even if he may have been making threatening gestures. In the "if you disobey us you die" school of policing officers may think it's ok to shoot when you don't like how the subject is gesturing, but legally if you are in zero danger then you have no license to kill at your own discretion.

ETA: Rafi, surely someone with libertarian leanings such as yourself should support the prevention of unnecessary violence on citizens by the police? I assume you'd agree with the notion that a person's rights don't vanish the moment a law enforcement officer doesn't like what you're doing. Although some conservatives are 'tough on crime', I've always gotten the vibe that you're more into liberty principles than authoritarian principles.

[ October 27, 2015, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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Pete at Home
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"Vilifying victims for drug use is precisely one of the ways that attention has been waved away from the problem by giving people an imaginary moral high ground t"

Holy sanctimonious high handed idiocy, batma!

The pointy isn't that drug users deserve to die. The point is that a dude on pop is dangerous and unpredictable. That's a legitimate point to bring into consideration, and hand waving it awayvfrom your safe little gated community is just a variant on let them eat cake.

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Pete at Home
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"The point is that Yatim's state of mind and intention is irrelevant in the discussion of whether he presented a material threat to the officers. If he didn't then shooting is murder"

Yes. That's how a sane person dresses the issue. Better would be whether the officer reasonably perceived said danger. Because the q of murder depends on the killer's frame of mind. A distinction that evaporates in the this air of Pyrlandia...

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
The point is that Yatim's state of mind and intention is irrelevant in the discussion of whether he presented a material threat to the officers. If he didn't then shooting is murder. Since he was standing in the streetcar and the cops were down on the street it seems almost inconceivable to argue that he was materially threatening them, even if he may have been making threatening gestures. In the "if you disobey us you die" school of policing officers may think it's ok to shoot when you don't like how the subject is gesturing, but legally if you are in zero danger then you have no license to kill at your own discretion.

ETA: Rafi, surely someone with libertarian leanings such as yourself should support the prevention of unnecessary violence on citizens by the police? I assume you'd agree with the notion that a person's rights don't vanish the moment a law enforcement officer doesn't like what you're doing. Although some conservatives are 'tough on crime', I've always gotten the vibe that you're more into liberty principles than authoritarian principles.

How far away was Yatim when he was shot? I thought this happened inside a street car. The statement I read had the officer inside the streetcar with Yatim. Did I not read that correctly?
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TomDavidson
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Did you really not watch the video?
Watch the video.

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Rafi
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Watched it. Here was my confusion:
quote:

Police arrived at the scene. At the front of the vehicle, Constable James Forcillo of the Toronto Police Service called for a Taser multiple times, believing the situation "could be contained"

Front, sounds like he's inside, but I see what they mean.

Here's what I see. The place is sufficiently close tha tYatim is a deadly threat. 21 feet is the rule on that. After the shots are fired, the officer approach and then, for some reason, all jump back and move away. What happened at that moment? What caused them all to jump?

Here's what likely happened. It may surprise many to learn that these police officers are normal guys without psychic ability. Did Yatim have another weapon? A gun perhaps? Things as they are, a detonator for his explosive vest? Who knew? Applying hindsight and a healthy dose of condescending Monday morning quarterbacking (just wait for it) is childishly simple. The officer have someone clearly off kilter and violent, they have no idea what he's armed with beyond a knife and his penis. So you make the only smart assumption available, that he could be loaded up like a terrorist. Anything less is absurdly stupid. So the officers acted accordingly and their sudden jump indicate Yatim was moving and they weren't sure what was about to happen. So they tase him to try to keep him from doing whatever it is deposited being shot - they have no idea how many shots hit the target at this point.

Right now, much of the evidence is not published.

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Fenring
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I guess you answered my question about whether you're a libertarian or an authoritarian.

The answer to your question of "what caused them all to jump" is: they are cowards.

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Rafi
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That's a really childish answer.
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