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Author Topic: Shocking police shooting
scifibum
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"is a deadly threat" is not accurate. Potentially a deadly threat is more accurate. The officers were justified in having their weapons out and ready, but weren't justified in shooting unless he came at them.

http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

quote:
"So long as a subject is stationary or moving around but not advancing or giving any indication he's about to charge, it clearly is not legally justified to use lethal force against him. Officers who do shoot in those circumstances may find themselves subject to disciplinary action, civil suits or even criminal charges."
I'm sure the officer has consistently said that he thought he saw the guy coming at him; that's what one would say in his shoes. Maybe he really did think that(?).

But the video shows that Yatim didn't come at them. He was moving around a bit, but that's all. The force wasn't justified under the 21 foot rule, based on what the video shows.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Anything less is absurdly stupid.
I am very glad that you will never be anywhere near a position of power.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
That's a really childish answer.

I am open to thinking with the child's mind and to accept a simple truth, when it presents itself. It is all too easy to become deluded with knowledge that clouds what one sees with one's own eyes. Now that you've seen the video, what simple word comes to mind when you watch the police reaction? For me it is "afraid."
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AI Wessex
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Here are some examples showing how English police deal with an armed person who might be threatening. Very different from what we have been reading about police dealing with similar situations in the US.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
"is a deadly threat" is not accurate. Potentially a deadly threat is more accurate. The officers were justified in having their weapons out and ready, but weren't justified in shooting unless he came at them.

http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

quote:
"So long as a subject is stationary or moving around but not advancing or giving any indication he's about to charge, it clearly is not legally justified to use lethal force against him. Officers who do shoot in those circumstances may find themselves subject to disciplinary action, civil suits or even criminal charges."
I'm sure the officer has consistently said that he thought he saw the guy coming at him; that's what one would say in his shoes. Maybe he really did think that(?).

But the video shows that Yatim didn't come at them. He was moving around a bit, but that's all. The force wasn't justified under the 21 foot rule, based on what the video shows.

That is your opinion based on limited data - current testimony is essentially under gag order so we don't know what we don't know. Your opinion may very well turn out to be correct. My opinion is, based on the video, that I'd like to get all the evidence and have a trial before we convict the officer.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Anything less is absurdly stupid.
I am very glad that you will never be anywhere near a position of power.
[Roll Eyes] I think you're literally unable to stop trolling.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
That's a really childish answer.

I am open to thinking with the child's mind and to accept a simple truth, when it presents itself. It is all too easy to become deluded with knowledge that clouds what one sees with one's own eyes. Now that you've seen the video, what simple word comes to mind when you watch the police reaction? For me it is "afraid."
Of course they're afraid. You go confront somone with a knife. It's not gonna be like it is on your Xbox. But you called them all "cowards". They engaged Yatim, they face dangerous threats every day despite the basic human reaction to be afraid of it and they largely do it well. It is the epitome of bravery and sacrifice. Keep thinking with a child's mind and you'll keep coming up with a child's answers.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
It is the epitome of bravery and sacrifice.
That's considerably undermined by the decision to shoot someone from twelve feet away, then shoot him again several times just to make sure.

The thing is, it's not bravery to destroy the sick and confused, even when they're scary. When the only ones actually risking getting hurt are the people you're supposed to be helping, that's not "sacrifice."

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jasonr
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quote:
Of course they're afraid. You go confront somone with a knife. It's not gonna be like it is on your Xbox. But you called them all "cowards". They engaged Yatim, they face dangerous threats every day despite the basic human reaction to be afraid of it and they largely do it well. It is the epitome of bravery and sacrifice.
If the cops unloading their pistols into a single man standing 10 feet away inside an empty streetcar and then tazing his bullet ridden body is "bravery" then the TTC driver is some kind of superhero. He was inches away and managed not to freak out.

But I do agree with your use of the word "sacrifice" - they sure sacrificed Mr. Yatim to ensure no risk whatsoever to themselves. Yeah the cops sure were heroes.

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Rafi
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I think what you're demonstrating is a basic misunderstanding of violent confrontation in the real world. It's not like in the movies. You don't talk a drug addled, imitational, violent person into rational behavior very often, you don't disarm a knife wielder without getting cut, probably badly. Go get in a fight with someone armed and see for yourself. Anyone telling you otherwise is spouting off personal fantasy or simply lying.
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AI Wessex
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Why not just tase him? At that distance, it might have worked and should have been tried first.
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Fenring
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So Rafi, you agree with jasonr's assessment that 1,000 civilians should die to prevent the possibility of one cop being injured or killed in the line? If there is the slightest chance of harm the citizen is summarily killed? Never mind that there are non-lethal methods of subduing people, including doing nothing and waiting him out.

You speak as if a fight with Yatim was in progress and they had to act swiftly - but this is not the case. While he did appear aggressive, he was not actually aggressing on the police when they shot him.

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jasonr
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quote:
You don't talk a drug addled, imitational, violent person into rational behavior very often, you don't disarm a knife wielder without getting cut, probably badly.
And you are suggesting that the only alternatives available to the police were 1. Talk him into rational behaviour or 2. Disarm him.

I have an idea. Close the door and wait. I'm no expert on mortal combat, true, but in my experience people need to eat and get tired.

Speaking of which, here's an example where it apparently worked quite well:

Vince Lee

In Vince Lee's case, the RCMP waited him out while he was inside the bus, and then when he tried to get out, they tazed him.

Lee, by the way, decapitated a passenger with a machete. On the "threat" scale he would have been a 10/10 to Yatim's 3/10. But somehow the RCMP didn't need to even kill the guy.

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