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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Mortality rate rises for middle aged, high school educated white men (Page 4)

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Author Topic: Mortality rate rises for middle aged, high school educated white men
Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
If a rich white girl was anorexic and ravaged by malnutrition, he'd wag his finger in her face and explain to her sincerely that she's not really sick because she plainly has access to ample food relative to black urban social housing dwellers.
I think that's blatantly false.
More likely is that if she were to say something like, "All this effort to give black people food and healthcare, and there's no support for me?" he would point out that she has a number of support networks and, moreover, is not actually suffering from a lack of access to food but rather a disinclination to eat it.

Since I was talking about perception and not structural support networks I think a better analogy would be a white anorexic girl thinking "I had all this privilege and I still ended up a failure."

But it's hard to make this analogy fit perfectly since anorexia is a very particular psychiatric problem that carries its own host of perceptual errors. It's true that suicidal people can have chronic psychiatric conditions, but this isn't always the case. I mentioned the cultural thing since one's mental framework can be chipped away from various sources, and this slow erosion can effect the balance in those critical suicidal moments - the moments when a concerned person or positive thought could make all the difference. Since Greg specified that white people were affected in recent years I was searching for areas where white life may have appear to degraded on a perceptual level. It came to me pretty fast that "white pride" appears to have taken a headshot in the last 10-20 years except perhaps in certain circles such as evangelical. As I mentioned before this is probably largely a good thing since many previous sources of white pride were unwholesome ones, but nevertheless that doesn't alter the basic fact if true.

ETA - I should also add that since OP's article references a change between 1999 and 2014, we might conclude that whatever problem there is may have begun prior to the economic collapse that happened more than halfway through this period. The degradation of white pride likely began even prior to 1999, whereas there was no economic ailment among white people in 2000 or 2001, say. There was, however, a time of war, and I have to say I was a little remiss in not suggesting earlier that poor morale as a result of America being attacked may be a part of this also.

[ November 07, 2015, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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jasonr
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quote:
I think that's blatantly false.
More likely is that if she were to say something like, "All this effort to give black people food and healthcare, and there's no support for me?" he would point out that she has a number of support networks and, moreover, is not actually suffering from a lack of access to food but rather a disinclination to eat it.

The point is, people don't always behave rationally. Indeed, anorexia is fine example in this case because (I believe) anorexia is rather confined to relatively privileged and (mostly) white populations. I don't know the stats offhand, but I would guess that it's far more common in the privileged white suburbs than in the black ghettos.

If I were to simply point that fact out (without even claiming that it somehow makes rich white suburban dwellers downtrodden or hard done by), Pyr would probably start lecturing me on how I'm wrong because *blah blah insert white privilege academic BS*.

There's really no conflict between the privilege discourse and merely pointing out the fact that some relatively privileged populations can have social problems their less privileged peers don't. I'll bet slavemasters got some diseases or had some health issues their slaves didn't. Pointing that out doesn't make me an apologist for slavery.

[ November 08, 2015, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
If I were to simply point that fact out (without even claiming that it somehow makes rich white suburban dwellers downtrodden or hard done by), Pyr would probably start lecturing me on how I'm wrong because *blah blah insert white privilege academic BS*.
See, I don't think so. Pyr generally pitches in when the suggestion is that some specific situation is uniquely and untowardly hard for white folk.
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LetterRip
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The preception of 'rich white girl problem' is because they had the wealth to get into treatment programs and had family that knew to seek help and doctors are less likely to recognize eating disorders among minorities due to this common belief.

Anorexia appears to be higher among white women, with bulimia and binge eating at higher rates among african american women, but the statistics are fairly poor.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/03/eating_disorders_and_women_of_color_anorexia_and_bulimia_are_not_just_white.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/eating-disorders-minorities.html

People think that eating disorders are 'vanity run amok' as one woman put it. Hence the cultural view that it is an affliction of wealthy, vain women. It probably has nothing to do with vanity or culture, our vanity and culture simply mask the disorders and delay their detection.

quote:
But when you look at the research literature, several studies indicate that environmental factors such as emaciated models are actually a minor factor in what puts people at risk of an eating disorder. A 2000 study published in the American Journal of Psychiatry found that about 60 percent (and up to 85 percent) of a person's risk for developing anorexia was due to genetics. A 2006 follow-up study in the Archives of General Psychiatry found that only 5 percent of a person's risk of developing anorexia came from shared environmental factors like models and magazine culture. A far greater environmental risk (which the study estimated constituted 35 percent of someone’s risk of anorexia) came from what researchers call non-shared environmental factors, which are unique to each individual, such as being bullied on the playground or being infected with a bacterium like Streptococcus. (Several very small studies have linked the sudden onset of anorexia and obsessive-compulsive symptoms to an autoimmune reaction to strep infections.)
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2012/09/what_causes_anorexia_and_bulimia_new_eating_disorder_research_says_it_s_not_a_cultural_disease_.html

[ November 08, 2015, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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LetterRip
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Also recent studies on eating disorders show that they are more common among those of lower socio economic status.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9140731

Eating disorders aren't people taking rational thoughts (I should lose some weight) and taking it too far; they are unrelated to rational thought (they occur among all cultures including rural Africans, Mennonites, and the Amish that place no cultural value on thinness). People use rational thought to explain their actions so if you ask someone with an eating disorder they might tell you that they are doing so to lose weight.

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Fenring
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That's interesting but irrelevant to jasonr's point. For the purposes of the discussion instead of verifying whether or not anorexia is a suitable analogy you can simply accept anorexia as a placeholder for "unpleasant phenomenon white people face more than black people do." The point is if white people are committing suicide at a higher rate then there is something affecting white people that isn't affecting others in the same way. Or if it is affecting them then perhaps their culture has additional resistances to suicide in some way. Pyr was trying to argue that one cannot even suggest a scenario where white morale is lower than black morale, and it is this insultingly wrong suggestion that jasonr is contenting.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by OrneryMod:
Rafi: I am unable to contact you at the email address associated with your account. Please update your account with your current email address and contact me at OrneryModerator@hotmail.com.

Email is valid and, based on the dozen or so emails I send and receive every day, working properly. I have emailed you directly but you are unresponsive.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
If I were to simply point that fact out (without even claiming that it somehow makes rich white suburban dwellers downtrodden or hard done by), Pyr would probably start lecturing me on how I'm wrong because *blah blah insert white privilege academic BS*.
See, I don't think so. Pyr generally pitches in when the suggestion is that some specific situation is uniquely and untowardly hard for white folk.
Unless it only specifically tilts for rich white women, in which case Pyr is first in line to gulp the kool aid from the holy grail.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*laugh* I think it's amusing that you think doubling down on this particular play is going to help you in some way. Why?

It was very instructive, I've learned a great deal. I hope everyone that followed along learned as much as I did from this demonstration and its results. [Smile]
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*laugh* I think it's amusing that you think doubling down on this particular play is going to help you in some way. Why?

It was very instructive, I've learned a great deal. I hope everyone that followed along learned as much as I did from this demonstration and its results. [Smile]
Rafi, Breithbart is the top hit on Google search for the quote you gave beginning with "Members of the #FYF911 or #FukYoFlag and #BlackLivesMatter movements called for the lynching...". They take as their source a bizarre and obscure Texas radio blog show called “Sunshine’s F***ing Opinion Radio Show.”

This is credible news that taints an entire movement? Tom pointing this out makes him a troll?

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yossarian22c
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Prytolin sometimes you can be astonishingly unsympathetic. You are so blinded by the statistical averages you can't seem to see that each individual within a group may not be getting the same benefit from "white privilege." A white person in poverty is likely to have a social network that contains people in poverty also. Not every white person has a rich or powerful family member to help them get a job or go to college.

Imagine life in a dying coal town in West Virginia, almost everyone there has "white privilege" but almost everyone within their personal social network is going to be poor and equally struggling. People in those communities are likely to have social networks that are missing the same key factors that many people in impoverished minority neighborhoods are missing. You just assume because they are white that they can walk into a new city and have the social connections needed for success.

Your attitude towards the individuals suffering is callous. If the rate among a minority group were increasing while the rate among whites was decreasing you would by definition (statically different outcomes) call that systematic racism. But since it is happening to whites, you attitude seems to be, they just don't get how privileged they are to be white.

As an aside I think the evidence of privilege is really manifested by the greater number of white people with social networks already in existence that connect them to people who can help them at key moments in life. I think the statistically significant effects that we see in economic and other outcomes are a result a greater number of individuals having useful connections in their social network. I believe the benefit from the amorphous "majority identity" or not having to "think about race" to economic outcomes as almost zero.

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Pete at Home
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When it comes to political opponents, I have yer to see Pyr demonstrate more empathy than say, Rafi.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Prytolin sometimes you can be astonishingly unsympathetic. You are so blinded by the statistical averages you can't seem to see that each individual within a group may not be getting the same benefit from "white privilege." A white person in poverty is likely to have a social network that contains people in poverty also. Not every white person has a rich or powerful family member to help them get a job or go to college.
Indeed- but that's a class issue, not a racial issue. MY objection is trying to use suffering from a class issue as proof that others don't suffer on racial lines.

The existence of classism doesn't prove or disprove racism, despite efforts to conflate "suffers from classicism" with "gains no relative benefit from race, sex, etc..."

quote:
Imagine life in a dying coal town in West Virginia, almost everyone there has "white privilege" but almost everyone within their personal social network is going to be poor and equally struggling. People in those communities are likely to have social networks that are missing the same key factors that many people in impoverished minority neighborhoods are missing. You just assume because they are white that they can walk into a new city and have the social connections needed for success.
No I don't. I assume, that when they walk into a new city, that they're not automatically shut out of the default networks because of race. There may be other reasons for it, but their race isn't one of the factors as it actively would be for someone with minority status.

Take that town in WVa. Yes, they suffer from all those things, but now put a black person in the same economic state in the same city. They also suffer from all those things. But do you know what else they suffer on top of that? They suffer from social and legal persecution because of their skin color on top of that. The different oppressive factor intersect to make their net experience worse.

quote:
Your attitude towards the individuals suffering is callous. If the rate among a minority group were increasing while the rate among whites was decreasing you would by definition (statically different outcomes) call that systematic racism. But since it is happening to whites, you attitude seems to be, they just don't get how privileged they are to be white.
Again, a misrepresentation. I've taken no position on their suffering, except for point out that it stems from factors taht are not race. If I am unsympathetic to anything here, it's attempt to use such orthogonal sources of suffering to "disprove" that others are suffering for other reasons.

quote:
As an aside I think the evidence of privilege is really manifested by the greater number of white people with social networks already in existence that connect them to people who can help them at key moments in life. I think the statistically significant effects that we see in economic and other outcomes are a result a greater number of individuals having useful connections in their social network. I believe the benefit from the amorphous "majority identity" or not having to "think about race" to economic outcomes as almost zero.
RIght up to the point where you walk into a store and are monitored as a soplifter because of your race. Where police preferentially pull you over because your car is too nice for someone of your race, or a default assumption that someone ofyour race has a greater chance of being involved in criminal activity.

How often do you have to think, when dealing with the majority of others "Is my race a factor here?" For minorities, that's a mental effort that needs to be made every day, in every interaction, and can easily wind up with them being mistreated or killed if they relax and act as if their race wasn't a factor in an uncontrolled situations.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
See, as stupid as the privilege discourse is(and it's pretty stupid) the funny thing is that there's really no conflict between it and any hypothesis about decreased white life expectancy that has been described on this thread. I fully believe that a person can subscribe to Pyr's ideology and yet acknowledge the obvious truth that relatively privileged populations can experience problems that may not effect less privileged populations, or may effect them in different ways.

Indeed, there isn't any conflict between it, which is why the attempt to use the affect as a form of disproof of the nature of privilege that I'm addressing are so spurious. You've cited my point very well and effectively conceded that small increase in death rates among a given population due to economic factors does nothing to disprove that they enjoy a global relative benefit due to not also having to deal with racial discrimination.

That's actualyl the most understanding of the concept that you've demonstrated to date, despite your ongoing effort to falsely imply that my position says otherwise. (In spite of me, several times, explicitly pointing out what you said above)

It's also worth pointing out that the drug epidemics are at their most acute in small town and rural environment, not city environments. Areas where industry and jobs that previously sustained those areas is dying off while many of the younger people feel a lot more pressure from the physical isolation from the hubs of our world that they've moved mentally closer to due to communication technology.

Physical and economic isolation are definitely playing in (with the ability to afford transportation making the first one largely economic as well), but there's no basis for the claim that they feel a lack of support because they don't actively think about their association with the majority or somehow otherwise feel ostracized because of their race.

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