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Author Topic: Mizzou President resigns
Pyrtolin
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quote:
Nevertheless, I still strive to teach it wherever I see occasion to.
And I find evangelism to be problematic. I will apply it defensively (Teaching people awareness of the consequences of their behavior, so that they can choose to act mindfully within the terms of their own philosophy) but not aggressively (Telling people to change their philosophy to one that matches mine, because mine is "better")

quote:
We do not agree on whether "understanding their problems" is necessary. Our disagreement is at least now crystal clear: you believe opportunity must be created for blacks and all other such groups to practice this philosophy, and I believe opportunity is already here (indeed it even existed in the concentration camps). At least we've distilled things down to the main point!
And on this, I'll point to Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. This attitude is part of securing the fourth level to move on to the fifth. When pushed as a solution to people that are struggling to establish the first and second, levels, it not only falls flat, but demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between the person trying to push it and the actual needs of the people being addressed.

Someone who feels they have to be constantly on guard against the bullet with their name on it is not going to be receptive to a message that suggests the stop worrying and act as if it's not out there, especially as they have to step over the memories of dead friends and relatives who didn't duck quickly enough to dodge their next bullet.

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Pyrtolin
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I'll clarify as well that you may find receptive individuals in any situation, despite adversity, but when applied to the people as a whole, it goes over like a lead balloon.

Imagine if you broke into a concentration camp, gathered the people there up and told them that this was your secret plan to make their lives there better? Can you imagine that the audience might feel like, at best, you were having them on, if not outright effectively telling them to enjoy their stay?

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TomDavidson
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For my part, I think exhorting people to be kind and forgiving and rise above their problems is fine. But if you are not sharing their problems, and you are offering this as an alternative to solving what they consider problems -- if you are, in fact, insisting that a problem you do not share is not something they should consider a problem -- I think you'll actually do the cause of kindness and forgiveness some real harm.

Consider, for example, how you feel when I point out that people afraid of Syrian refugees should just get over it.

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JoshCrow
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I disagree that Stoicism is merely about moving from the 4th to the 5th. It can aid the POW in the prison camp just as it can aid the privileged in navigating ho-hum leisure time. Nor it is a prescription for apathy in the face of an injustice (it can even be a source of power for the fight at hand).

But even so, I do not believe life for college-attending blacks in 2015 is as dire as you seem to. You are fond of talking about dodging bullets and mortal physical peril, but I do not think this is the experience of the average black person attending college. Their protests are about discrimination and other offenses on their dignity.

I think another key difference between us is that I feel as though I am pessimistic about their chances at combating bias at the level at which it exists (unconsciously, in many), whereas I think you think it can somehow be done.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
For my part, I think exhorting people to be kind and forgiving and rise above their problems is fine. But if you are not sharing their problems, and you are offering this as an alternative to solving what they consider problems -- if you are, in fact, insisting that a problem you do not share is not something they should consider a problem -- I think you'll actually do the cause of kindness and forgiveness some real harm.

Therein lies the problem - but I certainly don't need to be the messenger. The Time article tells me it can come from within the black community, because it already exists there.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
But even so, I do not believe life for college-attending blacks in 2015 is as dire as you seem to. You are fond of talking about dodging bullets and mortal physical peril, but I do not think this is the experience of the average black person attending college. Their protests are about discrimination and other offenses on their dignity.
And I think, here, you overlook how they almost all come from backgrounds, and are living in the backdrop of a world where they two go hand in hand. The reason that they are concerned about offenses toward their dignity, is because they've lived lives where offenses against their dignity communicate threats to their lives.

quote:
I think another key difference between us is that I feel as though I am pessimistic about their chances at combating bias at the level at which it exists (unconsciously, in many), whereas I think you think it can somehow be done.
Actually, I think that's a useless fight. Those people are unchangeable and not worth the effort of trying to change from the outside. The important fight is not against individuals, but against the system, and the way it baises outcomes or fails to provide equitable treatment. That's something that can be changed, must be changed, and is really the only thing worth talking about how to change.

There will always be prejudiced people. They're background noise. There do not have to be biased systems, and without biased systems, prejudiced people lose relevance, because they lose the reinforcement that comes from a system bent to favor and nurture their bias.

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Fenring
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I don't really see what any of that has to do with whether Mizzou campus is physically unsafe for black people or not. Pyr has mentioned "dodging bullets" and "they'll be killed" countless times. Not only is the situation not that dire in America at large, it certainly isn't anything like that on campus that I've heard. Systemic racism is a far cry from "they're being gunned down in the streets."

LR showed us some data about arrests and it didn't look like an epidemic of racism against blacks based on that. I've read data on killings by police over the past few years across different ethnic lines and based on that it seems that the police believe in equal opportunity violence right now. I do think the War on Drugs is racist against blacks, but that particular fact has no relevance to day-to-day life on Mizzou campus. There may be some hostility in the air, or a general sense of bigotry against black people in some places in America, and this would certainly be an uncomfortable reality. But that's not the same as the invective about "they'll be killed" that I'm hearing in this thread. It's hyperbole at best, and from the sound of it outright false in terms of university campus. The best the protesters could do to demonstrate unsafe conditions for blacks at Mizzou was to mention one drunken kid who walked into the wrong room, one van of idiots yelling out the window, and a swastika (yet they don't demand safe spaces for Jews).

Tom, the bottom line is you'd be right if the situation on campus (or even elsewhere in America) was like what's happening in Syria. If your life is in constant danger and you have no safe place to go it certainly would seem ridiculous to be told not to internalize victimhood. I mean, it would be good if one felt dignified at all times regardless, but I wouldn't make that my top priority to tell such people; helping them would be much more pressing. But that isn't the case except maybe in the worst districts of Detroit and places like that which barely resemble what we think of as America. But what that has to do with an Ivy league campus is quite beyond me.

ETA: I do agree with Pyr fully that biased systems are at blame, rather than biased people. It's only when a system enables various foibles of individuals that corruption and mayhem ensue. This can include racism, in addition to elitism and cronyism.

[ November 18, 2015, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I don't really see what any of that has to do with whether Mizzou campus is physically unsafe for black people or not. Pyr has mentioned "dodging bullets" and "they'll be killed" countless times. Not only is the situation not that dire in America at large, it certainly isn't anything like that on campus that I've heard. Systemic racism is a far cry from "they're being gunned down in the streets."
I'm sorry, have you missed the entire black lives matter movement? There's a reason for it, you know.

They are being gunned down in the streets, often by law enforcement, but also by the people they live around by virtue of being disproportionately impoverished and driven to the ends that impoverished people go to to find a way to get by.

"Things aren't that bad" is an expression of pure ignorance. Things are that bad. Taht's _why_ they're protesting.

And you're putting forth a red herring when you ask for evidence that the University is actually currently physically unsafe. That's the _wrong_ question. The problem is that the University is allowing, unaddressed, messages to those students that it's unsafe.

Again, a suburban neighborhood is absolutely factually safer than a warzone. That's completely irrelevant as to whether someone with PTSD from a warzone will have it triggered in the suburban neighborhood.

The issue isn't the statistical safety of the university. It's whether it's properly doing its job to control the presence of triggers for a significant segment of its population that's dealing with a specific kind of or equivalent to PTSD caused by the way the world has treated them up to this point. Caused by growing up in what amounts to a constant an ongoing war zone.

If the university is going to be a home for them. A place where they can go to learn and grow, then it needs to make an active effort to provide them the baseline for safety and healing that is required to overcome that background. Not idly sit by and ignore complaints about the ways that it's complicity in allowing those warnings of danger to creep in, as it has been doing.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

They are being gunned down in the streets, often by law enforcement, but also by the people they live around by virtue of being disproportionately impoverished and driven to the ends that impoverished people go to to find a way to get by.

"finding a way to get by" is a rather polite way to describe people murdering each other - maybe the nicest I've ever heard. Something like 93% of homicides against black people are committed by other black people. The protesting of some white university administrator for not prioritizing diversity programming seems awfully far removed from the real problem. In fact, even pointing to economic disparity and poverty is likely to get you booed by the BLM movement - they want it to be about racism, not poverty. I'm glad you agree with me that it is about impoverishment.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I do agree with Pyr fully that biased systems are at blame, rather than biased people. It's only when a system enables various foibles of individuals that corruption and mayhem ensue. This can include racism, in addition to elitism and cronyism.
And there, you have in a nutshell, exactly why civil rights leaders, when they use the big -ism terms are using them to refer to the systemic issues, not individual biases. They know they can't do anything about personal biases, and that trying to is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. They use the -sims to address structural issues, and misconstruing their words to be about individuals mangles their messages and distracts from the points they're trying to make.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

They are being gunned down in the streets, often by law enforcement, but also by the people they live around by virtue of being disproportionately impoverished and driven to the ends that impoverished people go to to find a way to get by.

"finding a way to get by" is a rather polite way to describe people murdering each other - maybe the nicest I've ever heard. Something like 93% of homicides against black people are committed by other black people. The protesting of some white university administrator for not prioritizing diversity programming seems awfully far removed from the real problem.

WHen the only way to afford to put food on the table is illegal business involving gangs, then trying to get buy is what gets you into that mess. Heck when the only way to be sure you're not collateral damage from gangs fighting is to make sure you're in good with the one most likely to kill you based on where you are, then once again, trying to get by is what gets you into the mess. When looking too "white" might get you roughed up or killed for selling people around you out, or even just communicate a degree of success that means you have something for others who are desperate and don't see any other way out of need to take... well, you get the point. That's what poverty does to people, and what people in poverty top the list of perpetrators of and being victims of crime.

But you're missing the point if you suggest that the facts of their background are what the point of the protest was to change. The point of the protest was over a university environment that wasn't taking active action to distance itself from that background. That was passively letting the signals from that background into what was promised to be an area that was free of them. You're doing them a great injustice when you try to ascribe attempts to fix things outside of the scope of the University's authority to their motivations instead of looking at the things within the scope of its authority and responsibility that they were trying to have addressed.

quote:
In fact, even pointing to economic disparity and poverty is likely to get you booed by the BLM movement - they want it to be about racism, not poverty. I'm glad you agree with me that it is about impoverishment.
"They want it to be"? Try "What they are talking about is". You're falsely implying tatt there's only one problem, not a stack of interrelated problems. There are already other movements talking about poverty. If you want to talk about poverty, why not interact with those movements instead of trying to hijack a movement that's bringing up and talking about a different issue into being about something that you're more comfortable discussing?

If you walked into an STD testing clinic and started lecturing the staff there about how they should be putting more effort into treating heroin addiction, since heroin needles are a big STD vector, do you think they'd applaud your insight, or ask you to stop distracting them from their jobs and go try the methadone clinic down the street instead whose actually working on that problem?

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Pyrtolin
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(And, lest the volume of conversation cloud this fact- economic justice is actualyl my home turf. That's the area that I'm acutalyl most versant with and can talk you from top to bottom in. I have an understanding of issues relating to racial justice (and similarly sexual/gender/orientation justice) based on many long, involved conversations with people I know whose focus is more directly on those areas. So I know the shape, size, similarities and overlaps, but I can't cite the specific experts and deep history nearly as well as someone whose made them their direct field of study and advocacy. I can do a rough 101, but not much deeper. But all of them, without fail start from a position of "You need to start from a position of respect and willingness to understand those that are suffering, not one of strident criticism and/or opposition)

[ November 18, 2015, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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Fenring
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The actual numbers just don't bear out the claim that life for a black person in America consists of dodging bullets and not being able to put food on the table. At least, not significantly more so than for a poor white person.

But even if this were not so, the thread topic is on the protesters' methodology and bullying, not on whether the BLM movement speaks to valid concerns or not. That's really a red herring. It's about dehumanizing and aggressive treatment of those who may disagree with them, or even simply fail to immediately agree with them. It's about, as JoshCrow put it, sacrificing people to the volcano of progress in a mob fashion without actually helping the progress of discourse itself. Part of the problem with the common man in America is that discourse has failed to address his real situation and needs. Politics has largely veered off from representing middle class and poorer people, and the relationship between government and citizens is less trusting and humane than it used to be. The way to combat this breakdown of real discourse is by creating lines of communication, trust and respect. I think the opposite was achieved at Mizzou.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
The actual numbers just don't bear out the claim that life for a black person in America consists of dodging bullets and not being able to put food on the table. At least, not significantly more so than for a poor white person.
But given that a person is black, they're more likely to be poor than they are if you only know that they're white. They absolutely more likely to be assumed to be poor and treated as such by store owners, law enforcement, and anyone else they encounter. They're also far more likely to live in or have a connection to high crime urban areas than white people who are poor are, as white poverty biases to suburban, town, and rural areas. The white person is far more likely to live among other white people that are not as poor. Similarly they're more likely to have family that is not as poor and to have inherited more in the way of education, access to networks, and other such forms of generational wealth even if they happen to be poor at the moment.

The experiences of your average black and average white person simply aren't comparable, so your comparison here, based purely on blind numbers, is spurious. How people experience the events that give rise to statistics matters far, far more than the statistics that may happen to correlate in the aftermath. People live their lives based on what happens to them, not based on abstract numbers.

quote:
But even if this were not so, the thread topic is on the protesters' methodology and bullying
Ah, so it's about making unsubstantiated attacks on them?

That's precisely what I was objecting to.

quote:
It's about dehumanizing and aggressive treatment of those who may disagree with them, or even simply fail to immediately agree with them. It's about, as JoshCrow put it, sacrificing people to the volcano of progress in a mob fashion without actually helping the progress of discourse itself.
Yes, all unfounded accusations that distract from asking questions about what their problems were and trying to understand what was happening in favor of demineralizing them, despite a complete lack of any evidence on which to make such accusations.

quote:
Part of the problem with the common man in America is that discourse has failed to address his real situation and needs. Politics has largely veered off from representing middle class and poorer people, and the relationship between government and citizens is less trusting and humane than it used to be.
And the students as Mizzou were driven to finally take the only kind of action that historically has had any real positive effect with regards to changing that. They finally had to buckle down and put themselves on the line and in the public eye to rally enough strength to be taken seriously instead of ignored.

quote:
The way to combat this breakdown of real discourse is by creating lines of communication, trust and respect.
That's what people tried to say to shut MLK doesn. to shut Gandhi dow, to shut every other person and group who actually put their necks on the line and made the needed effort to actualyl shake the status quo up enough for change. Missing, of course that it was the critics of the protesters, not the protesters, who were showing the lack of respect.

quote:
I think the opposite was achieved at Mizzou.
Hey, we could still get there if you're willing to actualyl walk the walk and not just pay lip service to the notion of respect. You actualyl seems to get there earlier in the thread, so I've got hope yet.
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Pete at Home
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Malcolm X owned slaves
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
And the students as Mizzou were driven to finally take the only kind of action that historically has had any real positive effect with regards to changing that. They finally had to buckle down and put themselves on the line and in the public eye to rally enough strength to be taken seriously instead of ignored.

You know, I don't think the members of the Mizzou protest were putting much of anything on the line. What did they risk protesting on a cushy campus? They got exposure, attention, even the feeling of power from having a media presence and direct power over the administration. At worst their effort would fizzle out, but none of them were in any danger of being harmed or frankly even expelled unless they did something criminal.

Now protesters in the 60's...THEY were putting something on the line. The police would break up a lot of these protests violently, they were preaching against a current war where the government wanted them silenced; this was a really tense situation. People at the time were dying by the thousands. It takes brass b***s to speak out against a government in wartime on principle while at the same time fighting for social changes and cultural reformation. I don't mean for this contrast to damn protests in more peaceful times but man, the protesters in colleges today are not in any kind of danger. If anything I'd say the football players took a risk, but the dudes walking around with signs and chanting...not so much.

Tell me how much is 'on the line' for these protesters at Dartmouth:

http://coed.com/2015/11/16/dartmouth-college-black-lives-matter-protest-violence-video-details/

It seems to me that the students on premises when they entered were under far more threat than the protesters were. I don't see police anywhere around, but I do see frightened students. There's not much currency to saying they're putting anything on the line when they feel empowered, strong, and protected all at the same time, while knowing they have the backing of pop culture on the left and will at least get decent reviews from some parts of the MSM (except when they behave like they do in this video, for which it's very hard to paint it in a positive way).

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Gaoics79
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Fenring, see if you can get Pyr to agree that the protesters in the video "bullied" anyone. Bet you $5 you can't. $20 if you can get him to admit they did anything wrong, at all.
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D.W.
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quote:
You know, I don't think the members of the Mizzou protest were putting much of anything on the line.
I'm not sure about the football players. I expect the school could have threatened to suspend them or even remove them from the team and endangering scholarships.

It seems unlikely but not exactly risk free for that group.

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Fenring
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D.W. do you have reason to believe there was a threat of expulsion? I've never read such a thing in relation to any protest lately, but maybe I missed it. I would be very surprised if they really did threaten that, but I'd amend my statement if I learned that had happened.
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D.W.
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Not expulsion directly no. But I could see them suggesting that refusal to participate in a game could get them kicked from the team. There was/is a huge amount of money involved in the contracts for these games. 1 mill was the number for just the next game at the time of the protest I heard kicked around for penalties for forfeiting the game. Ticket sales / network contracts and so on.

So given that, strong arming by the school to "make you play" seems plausible. So if they were cut from the team, I expect (but don't know for sure) that this threatens athletic scholarships. That, while not expulsion, would result in some former players no longer able to attend.

I have no reason to believe this was threatened. In all honesty cutting one guy (even the pres.) at $400k'ish salary seems like a far safer bet than to get the bad press of bullying your players, to whom public sympathy is likely a given, into playing so that you can exploit them for the gobs of cash involved. While this was an option, it was likely not a hard decision to make to concede the player's point and fire the president.

I would say that if you pay close enough attention that rules governing player walk-offs or protests will be more formalized in the future. This could easily be viewed as a warning shot to the collage football revenue system and the power the players have to impede it if they so choose. More than just the politically minded students were paying attention to how much power the football players brought to the table with this tactic.

Also worth noting is it is very much in the schools best interest to make great strides in improving racial sensitivity and student safety moving forward. The less the public realizes the football players were the deciding leverage the more secure the status quo remains.

This was a business negotiation, not new found cultural sensitivity. That is not a slight on the protestors or an attempt to discredit their goals. They played the right cards this time. I hope that things improve as a result.


[ November 19, 2015, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Fenring
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If it's the football players you're talking about then yeah, I already mentioned that maybe they risked something, although even by the standards of historical protests that something was just their fancy scholarship and not their physical safety. As for the majority of the protesters I can't think of anything that would qualify as a 'risk' on their part.
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D.W.
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Yes, I meant (and wrote) specifically and ONLY the football players. I missed that caveat in your post about their risk. Bad marks for both our reading comprehension. [Frown]

I suppose if you want to stretch it one of them did get nudged out of the way by the president's car in the parade. [Razz]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I don't think the members of the Mizzou protest were putting much of anything on the line.
The football players were breaking their fundamental contract with the university that their scholarships rode on by threatening to not play. The university would have been completely within its rights to ban them from the team and cancel their scholarships.

But, of course, the bigger issue is that, of course, the implicit assertion they should be acting based on _your_ perception of whether they were taking a risk, not based _their_ perception that they were taking a risk. You're inserting your uninformed opinion into your analysis of their actions instead of asking whether or not they felt that they were taking a risk. Unless you've got positive, nonspecualtive evidence somewhere that they said that they felt confident that noting bad could happen to them?

quote:
At worst their effort would fizzle out, but none of them were in any danger of being harmed or frankly even expelled unless they did something criminal.
Where's your evidence that they believed this? Aslo include evidence that tehy did not feel that allowing the current conditions to continue would translate to danger of harassment and possible physical harm, while you're at it, since those were part of the problem that they were trying to get addrtessed.

It may well be that many involved didn't feel like the university itself would punish them, but if the status quo was communicating threat then the "worst case" of nothing happening and that status quo being preserved would mean that they were in the cross hairs of escalating threat, so it was better to try to do something effective than sit around waiting for ineffective attempts to address the issue to bear fruit.

quote:
Tell me how much is 'on the line' for these protesters at Dartmouth:
I don't know much about the situation at Dartmouth, and it's completely tangential. Here. It's possible they're behaving badly- if you dig around I'm sure you can find any number of protests where _actual evidence_ exists that they botched it up. But if you'd like to make the case "Well, because some protestors behave badly, I can feel free to insult and degrade all protestors without evidence that they've acted poorly" then please, do feel free to try to make that case.

Otherwise you're squirming away from the point here.\, which is that it's unproductive and dehumanizing to approach a situation where you don't know the details with attacks and insults instead of an earnest and non-judgmental interest in trying to understand what's going on.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
As for the majority of the protesters I can't think of anything that would qualify as a 'risk' on their part.

And far be it for you to try to resolve that ignorance by making an effort to study situation and find an answer to that question, instead of just assuming that your ignorance is proof of a lack of them perceiving that there was something that hey were at risk of?
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D.W.
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quote:
But, of course, the bigger issue is that, of course, the implicit assertion they should be acting based on _your_ perception of whether they were taking a risk, not based _their_ perception that they were taking a risk. You're inserting your uninformed opinion into your analysis of their actions instead of asking whether or not they felt that they were taking a risk. Unless you've got positive, nonspecualtive evidence somewhere that they said that they felt confident that noting bad could happen to them?
How does your brain even come up with this stuff? It must be an interesting existence going through life with the belief that everything is subjective. I'm just not that imaginative a person I guess.

Was there a risk? Yes or No. Not, "No, but they believe there was one, so you should complement them on their bravery." I'm wired so contrary to that option that the concept is genuinely alien to me. I do find it fascinating that it not only occurs to some, but they state it, and seem to believe it sincerely.

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Fenring
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Pyr, it sounds like you agree that nothing material was on the line for the students here, I'm happy to hear that. What you did bring up is that I can't know whether the students felt they were taking a risk, and this is true. I don't know what they thought or felt. But then again it doesn't matter, since when one speaks objectively of what someone 'put on the line' one is not referring to anxiety but to material risk, which I see no evidence of here.

If one wants to paint the protesters as being heroic in some sense since they take risks in order to try to help others, it is actually incumbent on such a claim to show that there is actually such a risk. If there isn't any risk then the fact that a given student might feel threatened anyhow at some non-existent spectre of a threat doesn't mean they're putting anything on the line. It just means they are ignorant about how cushioned their protest really is. These protests are, by and large, a win-neutral prospect rather than win-lose. At best they gain their objective, at worst it amounts to little although they do have the satisfaction of having tried. There is no retribution coming their way. Although these groups at times feel the need to punish those that disagree with them, those that disagree with them don't seem to be seeking (from anything I've read) any kind of punishment towards the protesters.

[ November 19, 2015, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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ScottF
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Fenring, I just want to point out the courage it may have taken for you to type that last response. Granted, I don't have material proof that you risked anything in crafting it, but who am I to assume I'm familiar with your perception of risk? Stay strong.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
Pyr, it sounds like you agree that nothing material was on the line for the students here, I'm happy to hear that. What you did bring up is that I can't know whether the students felt they were taking a risk, and this is true. I don't know what they thought or felt. But then again it doesn't matter, since when one speaks objectively of what someone 'put on the line' one is not referring to anxiety but to material risk, which I see no evidence of here.

No. My position is that I _do not know_ what they feel they're putting on the like, and thus I do not judge them for it until I better understand.

While you see to think it's just find to degrade them because you don not understand what they feel they are putting on the line and thus feel safe to assume it must be nothing, post-rationalizing your ignorance as being "objective"

And all that matters is what they perceive. They are subjective participant in their own experience, their risk assessments are going to be made based on their subjective evaluation, not your uninformed and completely arbitrary assertions of what it "objective" here.

AS best I can see it, they feel their physical and mental safety are on the line. They risk those by not acting, so must act in order to protect them.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Was there a risk? Yes or No. Not, "No, but they believe there was one, so you should complement them on their bravery."
How does "Not demonize and dehumanize them" equate to "compliment them" to you? Is trying to approach the issue nonjudgmentally such a risk to you that you might actually agree that you have to equate it actively agreeing?
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Gaoics79
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quote:
Originally posted by ScottF:
Fenring, I just want to point out the courage it may have taken for you to type that last response. Granted, I don't have material proof that you risked anything in crafting it, but who am I to assume I'm familiar with your perception of risk? Stay strong.

He's heroic really, like a modern day MLK.
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D.W.
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I have not (at least have not intended to) demonized or dehumanized anyone here. At worst I can be said to infantilized collage "kids". But you'll be pleased (or affronted? I have no clue) to know that I do this universally and the race of the college kid or their political activity does not influence this unfair judgment by me.

But no, there is no "risk" for me on approaching any issue nonjudgmentally. It's a philosophy or reflex. I'm not risk averse I just make judgments. I may understand how or why someone may feel the way they do. I am an empathic person. I however compartmentalize that. If I see someone doing something I judge as wrong or find they reached a conclusion through faulty information I feel a need (damn near a compulsion) to inform them.

It's my version of the golden rule I guess. I WANT to be educated and informed when I make mistakes. I assume others do as well. I have a profound aversion to people who want to embrace a distorted reality out of fear or comfort. If it's out of ignorance at least that can be addressed.

I KNOW I'm a deeply flawed person who is ignorant of a vast wealth of knowledge. I don't claim to know better than others on every topic and I expect to be called out when I start spouting erroneous BS.

So no, the RISK I take is that others may not agree with ME. Yet instead of just keeping my mouth shut and being "nonjudgmental", which is the SAFE option, I voice an opinion or offer my input. I may help someone, I may learn something, I may be momentarily embarrassed or I may piss someone off.

Feel free to judge me. I welcome it.

[ November 19, 2015, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
. I WANT to be educated and informed when I make mistakes.
What about when you don't make a mistake? Do you want someone to jump on you and attempt to educate you, even though you know you did what you intended to? Or when they try to teach you how to do something that you're not interested in doing? Wouldn't you prefer it if hey first asked "Is that what you meant to do?" or "What are you trying to accomplish?", or even, heach "Would you mind a bit of advice?" Or is it better that they stop you from doing what you're doing and insist that you need to listen to them tell you how to do things according to what they think you're trying to do (or should be trying to do) without ever stopping to check to see if their advice is wanted or even needed.

If you're driving to the store, would you simply just shrug and say "They're just trying to be helpful" if you had a passenger that was insisting on telling you how to make each traffic maneuver as if you were a new driver wile also getting upset that you're not following their careful instructions on how to get to the bank?

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
o no, the RISK I take is that others may not agree with ME. Yet instead of just keeping my mouth shut and being "nonjudgmental", which is the SAFE option, I voice an opinion or offer my input. I may help someone, I may learn something, I may be momentarily embarrassed or I may piss someone off.
Who said anything about keeping your mouth shut? You wouldn't consider first asking what kind of help they'd appreciate from you? Or even questions about what they're doing to try to understand what they might need? You'd just jump in and start dictating whatever you imagine might be helpful based on what you'd be doing, without any regard to what they want?
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D.W.
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quote:
What about when you don't make a mistake? Do you want someone to jump on you and attempt to educate you, even though you know you did what you intended to? Or when they try to teach you how to do something that you're not interested in doing? Wouldn't you prefer it if hey first asked "Is that what you meant to do?" or "What are you trying to accomplish?", or even, heach "Would you mind a bit of advice?" Or is it better that they stop you from doing what you're doing and insist that you need to listen to them tell you how to do things according to what they think you're trying to do (or should be trying to do) without ever stopping to check to see if their advice is wanted or even needed.
If I didn’t make a mistake, I’ll defend my statement / position. If I know the “additional info” they are using to correct me and chose to make my decision despite it, I’ll let them know. If I’m not interested, I’ll tell them. (so they don’t waste their time) As for my preference on how they present themselves it’s just that, a preference. If I find value in what they say or am receptive to feedback the methods matter little to me.

I do fully comprehend that delivery matters. You need to approach everyone differently. Some people like blunt and direct, some people need to be correct and the only way to ever persuade them is to convince them they came up with the new idea by themselves. Some people will tune you out if you use profanity or appear aggressive in any way. Some people will ignore you if you are too timid or quiet and not assertive. If I care about YOU as an individual I may go out of my way to find out how YOU best are made receptive to new information or being critiqued or corrected. By default, I don’t go to that much effort.

Now the last part you mention “stop you from doing what you are doing.” I’m not normally interested in pointing out logical fallacies but this one just kinda smacks me in the face. I’m not stopping anyone. I’m not counter protesting, blocking people from entering spaces, making threatening remarks or anything. I’m asking questions and making suggestions. I’m talking. Anyone who feels threatened by that or feels I’m “stopping them” from anything by doing so is worth poking at. For if they can’t be taught how asinine that belief is, they should at least have value as a source of amusement for the rest of us.

Here’s a pro tip for internet debates and discussions. I can’t even “stop you” and force you to read what I write. You can scroll on by and ignore anything with my name attached to it. Dialogue (at least online) requires mutual consent. Now maybe in person, on campus for instance, they need to curb some more hot headed confrontations from happening. That seems to be part of what is being requested. The form that takes is of interest to me. I respect not wanting to be verbally assaulted but how you stop that without sheltering people, to their personal detriment, is not an easy task. Yes, people need a foundation and an ability to find emotional shelter at times. However if you create an environment which insures a resulting fragile group who believes they can “choose” to block out reality you are doing them a serious disservice.

“Hey, there’s this pitfall on the path you appear to be setting out on. Mind your step.”
If someone responds I need to mind my own business and I couldn’t possibly understand the path they are setting on or what lead them to start down it, I can either warn them more enthusiastically or shrug and move on to the next person until I lose interest. As my interest is mostly contained with… well here rather than say standing on campus preaching to the passing students, it’s really rather inconsequential.

I think I’ve stated this before but my participation here is entirely selfish. I’m not some altruistic missionary trying to sell you all on how to live your life according to D.W. My ego doesn’t need any wins here. I find the differences in how we all see the world and the conclusions we draw from what we see interesting. That’s the end of it. That, and lurking is boring…

quote:
You'd just jump in and start dictating whatever you imagine might be helpful based on what you'd be doing, without any regard to what they want?
Yep. If by dictating you mean offering my perspective without any demand or expectation of it being followed.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
. I WANT to be educated and informed when I make mistakes.
What about when you don't make a mistake? Do you want someone to jump on you and attempt to educate you, even though you know you did what you intended to?
This is a very funny question for you to ask. I hope you can see why.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
. I WANT to be educated and informed when I make mistakes.
What about when you don't make a mistake? Do you want someone to jump on you and attempt to educate you, even though you know you did what you intended to?
This is a very funny question for you to ask. I hope you can see why.
Absolutely. And I'm perfectly willing to entertain the notion that you're intentionally being degrading and insulting if that's really what you want to cop to.

I know very well that my position on this is likely to make you uncomfortable. I can also, quite clearly see that you're not exactly being dogpiled by a large number of people pointing this out here. You're representing the status quo here, so you're going to have to expect that you'll have to deal with criticism, and perhaps even defend it from time to time.

But, of course, you haven't really actually defended what you're doing, just criticized me for pointing out that it was insulting to the protestors and based in outright ignorance. Heck, you've even agreed that your acting out of ignorance, but still haven't justified why you feel that using ignorance as a basis to criticize people it a reasonable position to start from.

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D.W.
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It DOES make us uncomfortable. Mostly because you speak with such surety that everyone understands your position and the logical assumptions which support it. When we ask you to back up a moment and explain it, your responses seem to indicate you think we are trolling you.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
If I didn’t make a mistake, I’ll defend my statement / position. If I know the “additional info” they are using to correct me and chose to make my decision despite it, I’ll let them know. If I’m not interested, I’ll tell them. (so they don’t waste their time) As for my preference on how they present themselves it’s just that, a preference. If I find value in what they say or am receptive to feedback the methods matter little to me.
3.4.5,6 times over? If every time you tried to do something, at least one if not many people came out of the wood work to offer you advice? It's one thing to say you can shake it off when it's not something you're constantly pushing back against, It's quite another when people are constantly on you and doing it without end.

quote:
m asking questions and making suggestions.
If you'll look at the behavior I was criticizing, it was actively skipping that first part, in any honest manner. In fact the people defending it have been defending the notion that it should be perfectly fine to start with making suggestions, at best, if not being out right critical or even degrading, based on a complete, acknowledged lack of knowledge aside from superficial reports.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
It DOES make us uncomfortable. Mostly because you speak with such surety that everyone understands your position and the logical assumptions which support it. When we ask you to back up a moment and explain it, your responses seem to indicate you think we are trolling you.

DO I really need to explain why being rude and insulting to people, while making assumptions based on ignorance is a poor way to show interest in a subject?
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D.W.
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Some times yes. Because you see insults at times when none are intended and assume ignorance without seeing it demonstrated.

Everyone who reaches a conclusion which differs from your own is NOT by default ignorant.

Everyone making a suggestion is NOT by default being rude.

Everyone who tells you something you don't want to here is NOT by default being insulting.

As to your point about the exhaustive nature of being offered advice repeatedly or constantly, I take that as a damn good indicator I may have my head up my ass.

Some times, motives don't matter. I know that may seem like an awful thing to say but it's true. Some times people don't NEED to know or research the history of a subject. They can tell you, "Umm, that thing you just did, here's how it looks to me. You may want to consider doing something else unless that's your intent."

Upon discovering the WHY, or your feelings on it, the "how it looks" or "here is the most likely repercussions as I see them" aren't going to change. Now if that reaction is what was desired, cool. If it's not, arguing with me that I shouldn't see things that way or people shouldn't react that way is pissing in the wind.

[ November 19, 2015, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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