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Author Topic: Mizzou President resigns
D.W.
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That was indeed a decent read, linked by kmbboots. Good to see the math involved.
But in what way are she and Josh even arguing?

[ November 09, 2015, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
3 Lessons From University of Missouri President Tim Wolfe’s Resignation

From the article:
quote:
When asked about “systematic oppression,” you can’t say “Systematic oppression is when you don’t believe that you have the equal opportunity for success,” as if marginalized students are just making up the slurs, the vandalism, and the general feeling of being unsafe on their own campus.
BZZZttt... WRONG! You said "the general feeling of being unsafe on their own campus". We're sorry, but the correct words were "being unsafe on their own campus". They aren't just "feeling" it - it is real!

Gotcha! Thanks for playing, though.

[ November 09, 2015, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:


Josh, from my perspective Kate is kicking your butt in this argument. some of the early assertions are weak on backup but there's still enough there to mop you up here.

I, too, do not see how Kate and I are arguing, or on what topic. I might add that one thing I liked in this article was that it rightly points out that universities are overinvested in sports (to the detriment of other things) and they reap what they sow.
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Pete at Home
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You have a point vs the pcspeak that speaks of VOP (Very Oppressed Peoples) feelings as indisputable facts.

Hope Kate responds. I'll get popcorn

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Mynnion
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I find it telling that the faculty and coach also felt that there was enough of an issue to threaten not to work.

I think there is more to all of this than we are getting in the news.

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kmbboots
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Respond to what, exactly? I posted an article that I thought had some interesting perspective.

I don't think that there is much value in my trying to teach JoshCrow empathy.

[ November 09, 2015, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Mynnion:
I find it telling that the faculty and coach also felt that there was enough of an issue to threaten not to work.
.

It tells something, but what it tells is ambiguous. Faculty and coach could have responded to threats, and student language is consistent with that sort of extortion. NDAs with high compensation could stop dean from disclosing his side. But cant think of any way that a whole university movement could be prevented from spilling facts favorable to their side through the internet.
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Pete at Home
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Is it too much to expect students and university professors to articulate the facts favorable to their side on the internet?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Respond to what, exactly? I posted an article that I thought had some interesting perspective.

I don't think that there is much value in my trying to teach JoshCrow empathy.

If people you dont know tell you they feel unsafe but dont tell you why you are supposed to feel empathy?

I'll bet dollars to donuts I score higher on empathy tests than most people you know, Kate; I'm a bleeding heart. But sympathize with a bare text claim that unnamed people feel unsafe? That's not a case for empathy but for gullibility. Empathy is evoked through perception of facts. Subjective facts shaped by feelings. Empathy isnt about laughing or crying on cue likw some emotional porn star trying to get the money shot.

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Pete at Home
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201103/how-test-your-empathy

And yes, I also suffer from low testosterone which accounts for my short term memory lapses, sometimes forgetting which Ornerian I am talking to, and also for my fondness for minivans [Smile]

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:

I don't think that there is much value in my trying to teach JoshCrow empathy.

It saddens me that you think this of me - one of the two pillars of my belief system concerns having empathy. The other pillar is the practice of reason to search for the truth. I have come to believe that neither of these should be practiced in the absence of the other.

Like Pete, I suspect that I understand and value empathy better than you would believe.

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Pete at Home
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Some of the facts in Kate's nation article are persuasive to me:

"You cannot, as Wolfe’s supporters bragged when he was brought on in 2012, “run the university like a tech company.” You can’t raise tuition and slash funding for things like health-insurance subsidies while pushing a $72 million expansion of the school’s football stadium. When asked about “systematic oppression,” you can’t say “Systematic oppression is when you don’t believe that you have the equal opportunity for success,” You cannot, as Wolfe’s supporters bragged when he was brought on in 2012, “run the university like a tech company.” You can’t raise tuition and slash funding for things like health-insurance subsidies while pushing a $72 million expansion of the school’s football stadium."

Yeah, that jerks my knee as a bleeding heart. University as tech company? what a whore.

In this context, I do feel some outrage at his statement about systematic opression:

" When asked about “systematic oppression,” you can’t say “Systematic oppression is when *you don’t believe* that you have the equal opportunity for success,”

Systematic aint about belief. Aint about feeling. And yet the analysis in the article seems as off base and almost as dense as Wolfe's techco fantasy.

"as if marginalized students are just making up the slurs, the vandalism, and the general feeling of being unsafe on their own campus."

Ok, there are facts here, just buried in lefto bullcrap. SLURS and VANDALISM. If the writer was an empath, the emphasis would have been on details that evoke sympathy rather than gassing on the vague. Pseudostatistical fart in the direction of "generalized unease"

[ November 09, 2015, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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JoshCrow
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Well, let me ask a pointed question - if there's a community out there feeling unease because of (I presume) the actions of a few individuals, wouldn't the logical course of action be to pursue the individuals?

Vandalism is a crime - there are punishments for that, and presumably a process. There sure is on the campus I work at.

Slurs - well, not illegal, but not beyond an institution's ability to discipline. I think certain slurs are obvious enough that reasonable people could agree to what they are, although others walk a finer line.

I get the distinct impression that this is about more than merely prosecuting such behaviors, though. I presume that what this community wants is not really 'justice' for specific wrongdoings, but conformity and some official, unambiguous acknowledgement of their status as victims, with the moral high ground that accompanies that.

Pete - you say you felt some outrage at the president's comment. Consider that being able to question someone else's narrative, even of their own pain, is not merely a right but an essential element of finding truth. If you encountered a soldier with PTSD, who was suffering because of acute stresses on their life, would you conclude that the best treatment for them was to honor their PTSD-generated feelings and remove them from all stressors? or would a better treatment be for them to learn how to handle inevitable stressors that come with their condition? Is one of those responses somehow less "empathic" than others? Both come from a place of caring about their problem - but one approach is governed by a desire to soften the person's experiences and the other by a desire to improve their resilience.

Changing the world vs. changing the man/woman. It's not always obvious which to choose. Sometimes you can't do the former, so it's fine to think about the latter.

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JoshCrow
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For those wanting more proof that there is something rotten going on in here, have a look at how journalists at the scene are being treated. Is this what "liberalism" means and looks like now?
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Fenring
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JoshCrow's example had a letter attached to it. Let's look at another recent example - this one at Yale - with a very short video to watch instead:

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/3s4y41/the_kind_of_little_pricks_that_american/

I've done an unusual thing for Ornery in linking to another forum like Reddit, but this will allow you to both click on the video easily and also to sort comments by "Best" and to find the text of the offending email maybe three pages down, after some top comments that are fairly thoughtful.

The shrill tone of the protester, the silencing effect of the message that no one had anything valid to say but her, and the formulation of her statements as outright demands all make the protester sound like a lunatic to me. As some of the Redditors mention, if she's that upset about the Halloween email it means she needs care from a mental health expert. It's not that it's not valid for her to be upset in some sense at the content of the email; it's the degree to which some people claimed it incapacitated them and make them unable to live properly.

Another comment made the good point that no one takes it seriously when religious people are offended by certain kinds of dress (they are usually villified for making that belief known) whereas social justice types feel fully entitled to police Halloween costumes that offend them on other grounds.

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
For those wanting more proof that there is something rotten going on in here, have a look at how journalists at the scene are being treated. Is this what "liberalism" means and looks like now?

Oh god those tweets...so painful to read. The thinking that goes into such comments are so alien to me that it's actually somewhat scary.
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Pete at Home
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"Pete - you say you felt some outrage at the president's comment. Consider that being able to question someone else's narrative, even of their own pain, is not merely a right but an essential element of finding truth. If you encountered a soldier with PTSD, who was suffering because of acute stresses on their life, would you conclude that the best treatment for them was to honor their PTSD-generated feelings and remove them from all stressors? or would a better treatment be for them to learn how to handle inevitable stressors that come with their condition? Is one of those responses somehow less "empathic" than others? Both come from a place of caring about their problem - but one approach is governed by a desire to soften the person's experiences and the other by a desire to improve their resilience."

Agreed on a right to question one"s narrative, and the Nationis wrong to gripe on that, but that wasnt my gripe.

His interjection of "feel" into that sentence is a mockery of the very possibility of objectivity. If asked what systematic oppression means, he should either have refused to answer the question, or cited a source quote. Not mocked the question. If a cop was accused of mishandling rape cases, and publicly defined rape as "when YOU FEEL that a guy has stuck his dick in you without your consent, my first reaction would be "fire this nimrod.'

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Pete at Home
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Good night. Left wing totalitarians. "what's so hard about doing what we want'?

Bastards. It's a public space, created by public money, and they create a public controversy within that space, and then demand to control journalism within that space under the name of "privacy"?

Kudos for finding this in a NYT article, hardlly a conservative paper ....

It certainly makes me dubious about their claims about slurs and vandalism, let alone the reasonableness of their "feelings" of unsafeness.

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
His interjection of "feel" into that sentence is a mockery of the very possibility of objectivity. If asked what systematic oppression means, he should either have refused to answer the question, or cited a source quote. Not mocked the question.

I suspect he phrased it like that not to suggest that oppression is a matter of belief (as in, something you just choose to believe, like a fantasy) but rather to use "belief" in the context where a person has some data available and forms a belief that they think fits the facts. Another word for this is hypothesis, but linguistically "belief" fits as well. Taken in this light his statement would mean "I know your assessment of the facts is that you don't have equal opportunities," which is very different from just groveling to them and stating unequivocally (as they wanted) that they don't have equal opportunities. His version allows for the possibility that they're right about their assessment, or wrong, but if you take away the word "believe" then it becomes an absolute fact that is incontestable.

Let's get to the point, Pete, these people were not going to tolerate any kind of statement that allowed for even the possibility that their assessment was wrong or exaggerated.

[ November 10, 2015, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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jasonr
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quote:
JoshCrow, was that intended to demonstrate anything other than it's easy to caricaturize the language of social justice?
I actually struggle to even imagine what a caricature of social justice discourse would look like. The type of thinking on display here is a grotesque farce, the very decinition of caricature.

Like Fenring and Joshcrow, this kind of thinking is alien to me. I have an easier time understanding the thought process of a suicide bomber.

The only consolation is that these social justice types always eat each other sooner or later. Their mental disease is terminal.

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Rafi
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quote:
Like Fenring and Joshcrow, this kind of thinking is alien to me. I have an easier time understanding the thought process of a suicide bomber.
I'm find this interesting. It should not be alien to any of you. We have seen this over and over again in the 20th century and such thinking is entirely predictable.
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Rafi
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quote:
The only consolation is that these social justice types always eat each other sooner or later. Their mental disease is terminal.
That is true, it's terminal. But it's whit they eat first along the way that should worry you. They eat each other last.
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JoshCrow
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The idea of "black spaces" is also an affront to racial progress. It's almost as if, having been freed from the constraints of segregation, you demand the right to return to your very prison! Wasn't the point to NOT have "black spaces"?

It speaks to a broader incoherence - we're not supposed to "see race": except when we're supposed to. We're not supposed to see gender: except when we're supposed to. Etc...

It seems like the intent is no longer what I originally imagined - a post-tribal society. Instead the goal is a society of powerful tribes whose power derives from their victimhood.

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TomDavidson
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Yes, yes, let's all whine about black people some more, shall we?
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Rafi
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quote:
It seems like the intent is no longer what I originally imagined - a post-tribal society. Instead the goal is a society of powerful tribes whose power derives from their victimhood.
The goal has been and remains the latter. This is always the means to totalitarianism and, with just a little historical perspective, the intent has been obvious.

Here's something else in 20 years these kids will be in influential positions. You will have them gerrymandered into office, running media outlets, dictating your thoughts and actions. How's that gonna work out for us?

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TomDavidson
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Yes, let us continue to mong some fear about the motivations and rationales of people we just said we don't understand, find more alien than suicide bombers, and consider incoherent. They're incoherent, but they've got a master plan.

*rolls eyes*
Dudes, do you not understand how badly this sort of thing makes you come off? I mean, seriously?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Yes, yes, let's all whine about black people some more, shall we?

Tom recolors the world to suit his racist outrage scheme. First he pretends a latin man is white, now a nordic blond professor is "black." what happened to Clinton was pure racism too. I mean he was raised by a single mother and all. How black is that? No wonder KKKeneth Starks name starts with a k.

It's racist to expect university students and faculty to act like educated people when they are in a public space they have claimed for their own.

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TomDavidson
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Ah, Pete, if you want to whine exclusively about the white professor, go right ahead. It doesn't make you look bad at all.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
His interjection of "feel" into that sentence is a mockery of the very possibility of objectivity. If asked what systematic oppression means, he should either have refused to answer the question, or cited a source quote. Not mocked the question.

I suspect he phrased it like that not to suggest that oppression is a matter of belief (as in, something you just choose to believe, like a fantasy) but rather to use "belief" in the context where a person has some data available and forms a belief that they think fits the facts. Another word for this is hypothesis, but linguistically "belief" fits as well. Taken in this light his statement would mean "I know your assessment of the facts is that you don't have equal opportunities," which is very different from just groveling to them and stating unequivocally (as they wanted) that they don't have equal opportunities. His version allows for the possibility that they're right about their assessment, or wrong, but if you take away the word "believe" then it becomes an absolute fact that is incontestable.

Let's get to the point, Pete, these people were not going to tolerate any kind of statement that allowed for even the possibility that their assessment was wrong or exaggerated.

Well.if he was already sucking up to them to that degree then he deserves to be fired. The place sounds like a bleeding hole sucking taxpayer money out into a vaccuum. Football player entitlement meet power to the people. "how hard is it for you people to just do what we say?" wow. What a glorious manifesto for human progress. What a capstone for our ublic education system. Toss away freedom of the press, accountability to the people... The public space has become the private space of the fooball player groupies.

King Wept. Douglass wept. Tubman wept.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Ah, Pete, if you want to whine exclusively about the white professor, go right ahead. It doesn't make you look bad at all.

Dont have data so she's the only face I have seen from the vid. The quotes I responded to are text, which has no race.

Are you claiming that "how hard is it for you people to just do what we want" is a somehow black sort of stupidity and I "look bad" for saying that such thought should not govern a university?

Screw how it looks. Do you ever give a floundering **** about right and wrong. Tom? for you would rape and murder be ok as long as you managed to LOOK good doing it?

And for a few months you actually had me convinced yhou werent a nihilist.

[ November 10, 2015, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Yes, let us continue to mong some fear about the motivations and rationales of people we just said we don't understand, find more alien than suicide bombers, and consider incoherent. They're incoherent, but they've got a master plan.

*rolls eyes*
Dudes, do you not understand how badly this sort of thing makes you come off? I mean, seriously?

So bringing up points that appear problematic makes someone a "whiner"? And pointing out that the methods a group is using are problematic makes people "come off badly" (I assume by this you mean bigoted)? The only conclusion is that any response to groups such as we're describing other than total compliance and agreement is that we're bad and whining. Do you not see how this line of thought parallels that of the protesters?

I would suggest that however much you may agree with their messages or ideas, that does not have to translate into also validating their methods and rhetoric. I, personally, would denounce in a second someone who believed all the things I believed and behaved how these people behave. Likewise I'd stand by someone who disagreed with me about everything and was a bastion of honor.

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AI Wessex
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Hmmm, denouncing someone who lives and breathes to make faux-political attacks on groups with grievances that he hates passionately is a sign of bad behavior? But what is Tom doing wrong by pointing out Rafi G's demented mental apparatus, exactly?

AI: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ November 10, 2015, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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Pete at Home
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Dont you understand, Fenring? Tom is speaking for the New Generation. There is no need for logic or coherent thought or reasoning. New is better. Old thinking people are just bigots who need to shut up, bend over, drink the pepsi and do what they are told.

Pete: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ November 10, 2015, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Hmmm, denouncing someone who lives and breathes to make faux-political attacks on groups with grievances that he hates passionately is a sign of bad behavior? But what is Tom doing wrong by pointing out Rafi G's demented mental apparatus, exactly?

That's not what Tom did. Tom speaks to Rafi, me, fenring and Josh as if we were all part of the same machine.

N0ote I still believe that you and Rafi are the same physical being, Al, but I do your persona the courtesy of speaking to you differently. I do not appreciate Tom treating me like I'm spouting Rafi's point of view. I suspect that whoever created the Al construct, created the Rafi/G# construct specifically to spoof Tom Davidson as Tom's right wing reflection. I could have so myself if I had the patience time and masochism to stare into the void that is TomD.

Pete: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ November 10, 2015, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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NobleHunter
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I suspect the protestors are hostile to the press because the press has often been complicit in supporting narratives that show protestors as mindless thugs. Don't you think they might feel they have reason to be cautious about giving the media access?

I also find it telling that much of the discussion seems based on the assumption that the students don't have a legitimate grievance against the administration. As if it's unheard of for the authorities to make only desultory efforts to investigate racially motivated harassment.

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JoshCrow
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This thread was much better before personal attacks poured into it...
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
I suspect the protestors are hostile to the press because the press has often been complicit in supporting narratives that show protestors as mindless thugs. .

Yes. I absolutely respect their right to be hostile to the press. I also think that college students and professors should be expected to act hostile to the press wiithout acting like mindless thugs. Just as I am hostile to Tom without acting like a mindless thug. Even Tom manages to convey his hostility anyone who dares convey a message that he disagrees with, without acting like a mindless thug. I think he pulls off the Smug DMV employee face quite effectively.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
For those wanting more proof that there is something rotten going on in here, have a look at how journalists at the scene are being treated. Is this what "liberalism" means and looks like now?

Oh god those tweets...so painful to read. The thinking that goes into such comments are so alien to me that it's actually somewhat scary.
As best I can tell, Tom's rationale for implying that you are racist for criticizing the tweets goes like this: the stupidity of the tweets suggests that the tweeters are black therefore you are racist for whining about them. Being anti stupid is systeemically racist
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D.W.
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quote:
I suspect the protestors are hostile to the press because the press has often been complicit in supporting narratives that show protestors as mindless thugs. Don't you think they might feel they have reason to be cautious about giving the media access?
How has the press been complicit? I don’t consume A LOT of media. Bread crumb trails here, google news front page and NPR is the lion’s share of my media diet. From what I’ve seen the media’s reporting is negative to the protests in exactly one way.

They report the protestors response / action then are light on or leave a notable void where the justification and rational for those acts and responses should be. This can easily be seen as a slight. Surely the media is making them look like an angry mob lashing out right? But when you make an effort to look for those justifications and rational, as we are used to doing when we feel the media is pulling a fast one to push their own narrative (or just boost their ratings), we can’t find much.

This is not the action of mindless thugs. These are the actions (or result of) people flexing power, yet unsure what to do with it. Congrats to the football team realizing their own worth and influence. I hope they do something useful now that they succeeded in their first field-test of political (and/or financial) potency. I’m a bit underwhelmed that their first act was to shuffle the cards in hopes of ending up with a better politician who says the right things at the right time in front of the right people. Maybe that’s enough. At almost half a mill salary a year for the gig I say spread the wealth. Let it be a revolving door every time a point needs made. I won’t be too heartbroken about former school presidents not being able to put food on their tables.

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jasonr
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Yes, yes, let's all whine about black people some more, shall we?

I'm amused at your implication that black people are at the vanguard of social justice movements. The vast majority of this group is formed by privileged whites.
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