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Author Topic: Mizzou President resigns
kmbboots
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[Roll Eyes]
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Pete at Home
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"I't a good thing that Kate had special access to the internet to get you that information"

You mean you and TomD dont have such access? puhleeze.

I used to have such access. Now I get the information by getting ihto arguments with people who have such access. LR is quite forthcoming. Tom is more like Sinbad's monkeys. You have to throw rocks at him until he throws coconuts back.

If you know an easier way I could have gotten the info, let me know.

If I had more access than a limited cell connection, I would create a site, put the info up
and create key links to bump it in the search engines. But my skills are 12 years out of date. Bet Tom could do those kids' cause a lot of good in less time than he spent on this thread wishing more of this stuff would happen on colleges.

Less noise, more message.

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Pete at Home
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I think this quote by Pyr deserves special notice:

quote:
What makes you such a huge VIP in the University that they need to make the extra effort to account for trying to talk to you instead of focusing on getting their desired message to their desired recipients.
[DOH]

If those protesters have friends like you, Pyr, who needs enemas?

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
I'd say that the black football players clearly understand what it's like to be black on campus, and clearly demonstrated that they have some idea of how to get attention since they successfully did it.

This is your answer to why you think the protesters know what they're talking about? If so, then you are directly implying that if the black football team had not gone on strike then whatever white people were involved with the protest would have been full of it. Is this accurate? You'll say it isn't, but I'm curious why. Unless you can show me that he black footballers wrote the letter we read and directly tutored the other protesters on the facts of the situation you're going to have to do better than to just name some black people involved in the protest. I'm really curious why you're so sure they are experts in some field I'm apparently ignorant in. Note again that this point is in the context of you claiming that their thought process is so beyond me that I'm unqualified to comment on it.

quote:
quote:
If you do have that knowledge then please provide the source. If you don't then you must admit you have no basis for saying they're talking about some specialized knowledge about which I'm ignorant.
I have the basis that they're out there doing it, while you're sitting here armchair quarterbacking them and making claims that they don't know what they're doing rather than giving them the basic default credit that everyone should get that they have at least as much an understanding of what they're doing as you do, absent explicit evidence otherwise.
So the only difference between them and me is that they're still in college and I'm not? Are you suggesting that unless I go back to college I won't be qualified to speak on these matters? Has it ever occurred to you that the purpose of going to college is to learn things, and that you come out knowing more than when you went in, or than you stand halfway through your program? Has it also occurred to you that I finished college many years ago and that these protesters are still in college, which by any sane calculus should mean that I know more than they do? Unless they are such prodigious learners that they can learn in 2 years what I learn in 15.

And another thing - you say I'm armchair quarterbacking while they're out there doing stuff. Did you stop to wonder whether I...did anything in college myself? Or after it? You don't know jack about my background, it's funny you attribute more expertise to a bunch of undergrads you don't know than to someone older who reads a lot.


quote:
The difference here isn't in the amount of evidence or understanding that we have, bu rather than you're asserting that they don't know what they're doing and are incompetent and not starting from the more equitable assumption that they must know what they're doing absent pressing evidence otherwise.
This is really an outrageous reversal of history. YOU are the one who told ME that I'm too ignorant to fruitfully participate in a discussion about this, and that I just don't understand what the protesters are saying. When I ask why you think they know so much more than I do your answer is to tell me I'm the one saying they don't know what they're talking about! Your logic has become quite infamous in my mind, I'll tell you. You tell me I'm ignorant and when I ask you to back it up you accuse me of calling others ignorant. Wow.

quote:
I don't feel that I should have to provide evidence for an equitable default assumption,
Oh I knew full well you wouldn't, I was just calling your bluff that you knew anything at all in particular about these protesters other than what you've read in a few articles like we have. But you're going to bat for them on principle just because they say the kind of stuff you're into. That's fine, but giving them more benefit of doubt because they're on your team than you give anyone here is about as partisan as it gets and I'd enjoy it if you owned up to that.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"I't a good thing that Kate had special access to the internet to get you that information"

You mean you and TomD dont have such access? puhleeze.


What does it matter? You're the one who wanted to know, that makes it your responsibility to find the information. I'm not your personal reference librarian, even if I do point out that you're making false accusations that demonstrate that you've failed to actually research the issue before wading in and attacking them without any basis for your inventions.

quote:
I used to have such access. Now I get the information by getting ihto arguments with people who have such access. LR is quite forthcoming. Tom is more like Sinbad's monkeys. You have to throw rocks at him until he throws coconuts back.

If you know an easier way I could have gotten the info, let me know.

And for me, you'll find me most receptive if you ask specific, respectful questions. I'm not going to feel it worth the effort to find time to do your research for you if you start off with hostile accusations that suggest that you're not actually interested in learning, but rather suggest that you're more interested in grinding an axe.

Likewise, demanding that it have a responsibility to educate you isn't going to go far, and will just incline me to point out that you are the only one with a responsibility to educate yourself.

quote:
Bet Tom could do those kids' cause a lot of good in less time than he spent on this thread wishing more of this stuff would happen on colleges.
Maybe, maybe not, but unless he's asking for your advice or opinion on what to do here, that's a completely irrelevant derailment that shifts the conversation away from the ideas he's trying to discuss to one where you're dictating to him how to use his time.
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Gaoics79
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Hey Tom, where did you go? Where are you hiding? Nothing to say about any of this, hmmm?? Surely you have an opinion. Why so silent?
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TomDavidson
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What should I have an opinion on, based on the last couple of pages?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
This is your answer to why you think the protesters know what they're talking about?

No, it's the evidence that you asked for- clear proof that people affected are at the center of the issue. Your stepping from the claim made to an unevidenced extrapolation based on your assertions, not based on any actual facts.

quote:
If so, then you are directly implying that if the black football team had not gone on strike then whatever white people were involved with the protest would have been full of it. Is this accurate? You'll say it isn't, but I'm curious why.
No, it would just mean that there wasn't an easy answer and that one would have to do research before levelling the kinds of accusations against them that they weren't acting in cooperation with the people that have been trying to raise these issues for a long time and that they weren't acting in line with what has been found to be effective ways of escalating an issue that has failed to get any traction through less confrontational means. MY point was not that I had any specific information, beyond what's been said here or in reporting on the issue, but rather that you had no evidence to back your accusations
and were instead engaging in harmful and demeaning speculation, despite the fact that you had no evidence to support the accusations that you were making, where the basic standard for earnest engagement and an honest attempt to understand is to assume that they're acting with at least equivalent intelligence and forethought to yourself and then investigate why they believed that course of action to be reasonable, not to make blind, demanding accusations and then expect other people to prove such speculation wrong.

The emptiness of your accusation is the evidence of your ignorance here, not any special knowledge I have of the situation, as all I'm doing is giving the basic benefit of the doubt that people in such a situation should get instead of having unfounded accusations flung at them.

quote:
Unless you can show me that he black footballers wrote the letter we read and directly tutored the other protesters on the facts of the situation you're going to have to do better than to just name some black people involved in the protest.
Why do they need to have learned how to protest from a specific group of people rather than just be asked of have an offer to join them accepted? Again, you're asserting a narrative and then asking others to do the work of proving or disproving it, not asking why they may have thought that something was reasonable and actually working to understand where they're coming from. I could throw out possibilities, to be sure, but those aren't really relevant to my point, which is that you have no basis for the accusations that you're making.

quote:
I'm really curious why you're so sure they are experts in some field I'm apparently ignorant in. Note again that this point is in the context of you claiming that their thought process is so beyond me that I'm unqualified to comment on it.
Not that it's beyond you, that you are not showing any evidence of making an effort to understand it and instead making accusations based on that lack of understanding. Again you're confusing pointing out your clearly evidenced ignorance with speaking to your intelligence. In fact one of the downfalls of trying to rely purely on intelligence in the way that we tend to be socialized to apply it it that it tempts to to manufacture details based on the assumptions you want to make instead of acknowledging where you're ignorant and refraining from making assumptions or accusations until you've fully studied the issue.

quote:
So the only difference between them and me is that they're still in college and I'm not?
No. The difference is that they're living in that place and time and in the events that have occurred around them, and thus are the de facto primary witnesses here, while you're not there and are showing more interest in demonizing them than trying to understand them.

[quote[ Are you suggesting that unless I go back to college I won't be qualified to speak on these matters? [/quote]
No, I'm saying that sowing some evidence of trying to understand the situation rather than demonize it would demonstrate good faith, whereas you're demonstrating ignorance by attacking them instead of seeking to understand them, and you're implicitly impugning their intelligence and good faith by suggesting that you know more about what they are and should be doing than they do based on pure assertion.

quote:
Has it ever occurred to you that the purpose of going to college is to learn things, and that you come out knowing more than when you went in, or than you stand halfway through your program? Has it also occurred to you that I finished college many years ago and that these protesters are still in college, which by any sane calculus should mean that I know more than they do? Unless they are such prodigious learners that they can learn in 2 years what I learn in 15.
Except we're not talking about general information- we're talking specifically about knowledge of what's going on around them and what they're experiencing and trying to accomplish than you do, especially given that you're making a point of trying to attack them not asking questions that demonstrate respect and an earnest intent to learn what they're trying to say.

quote:
And another thing - you say I'm armchair quarterbacking while they're out there doing stuff. Did you stop to wonder whether I...did anything in college myself? Or after it? You don't know jack about my background, it's funny you attribute more expertise to a bunch of undergrads you don't know than to someone older who reads a lot.
Does it matter? Unless you're saying that you were working on issues in the same place and roughly same time as they are and were among people teaching you similar protest techniques or even having an understanding of what they may or may not have done.


quote:
This is really an outrageous reversal of history. YOU are the one who told ME that I'm too ignorant to fruitfully participate in a discussion about this, and that I just don't understand what the protesters are saying.
Something that was made manifestly evident by your choice to attack their method of protest instead of sticking to what they're actually trying to say as what's actually relevant, not making random unfounded accusations that serve to discredit their message without actually addressing the substance.

quote:
When I ask why you think they know so much more than I do your answer is to tell me I'm the one saying they don't know what they're talking about!
If you know what they're talking about then why aren't you discussing that instead of inventing attacks on them?

quote:
You tell me I'm ignorant and when I ask you to back it up you accuse me of calling others ignorant. Wow.
You actively did. You presented them as being dishonest, as not protesting properly, as being primarily external actors presuming to take it upon themselves to represent others regardless of their desires. You've made a battery of accusations here without evidence instead of having the decency to respect and try to understand what they're saying before attacking them while completely ignoring the message that's the actual important part of what they're doing.

quote:
Oh I knew full well you wouldn't, I was just calling your bluff that you knew anything at all in particular about these protesters other than what you've read in a few articles like we have. But you're going to bat for them on principle just because they say the kind of stuff you're into. That's fine, but giving them more benefit of doubt because they're on your team than you give anyone here is about as partisan as it gets and I'd enjoy it if you owned up to that.
I'm not going to bat for them. I'm just not starting off by attacking them without evidence. Giving them the basic benefit of the doubt that they should be entitled to if we want to claim to be respecting them and treating them equitably, while you're demonstrating exactly the kind of behavoir that leads them to want to establish safe zones where that can feel free to express their concerns and work to improve their lot without being subject to constant demeaning attacks that reinforce their secondary status instead of showing an earnest desire to understand their issues.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
What should I have an opinion on, based on the last couple of pages?

The last couple pages contain the most fact. Fact is what reasonable people base opinions on.


I bring facts to the table in the areas where I am fact rich. I doubt there is anyone here more knowledgeable in crim law or the Bible or the LDS church. I expect others to do the same. Share freely what they know. If someone hoards holds out, or plays priestcraft games (since you are ignorant I wont tell you) then I tease them about it. Be useful or be considered useless. I have no use for fact free opinions and posturing.

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Rafi
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They got another one.
quote:
Dr. Dale Brigham, considered one of the most beloved professors at the University of Missouri, has been forced to resign after initially refusing to cancel an exam for students who claimed to feel "unsafe."

"If you don't feel safe coming to class, then don't come to class," Dr. Brigham told his students. "I will be there, and there will be an exam administered in our class," he continued, imploring his students to stand up to the bullies on campus. "If you give into bullies, they win. The only way bullies are defeated is by standing up to them."

Yep, lots of good being done. So much more good to do.

Speaking of...

Mizzou Student Body President: The KKK has a 'Confirmed' Presence on Campus And I am Working With the MUPD, State Troopers, and the National Guard on the Threat

Mizzou Student Body President Alec Lewis later: sorry - I was full of sh1t.

[ November 12, 2015, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Rafi ]

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Rafi
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Now at Ithaca.
quote:
Members of the campus community walked out Wednesday "for all the injustices students of color face on this campus and other colleges nationally. With University of Missouri's president stepping down, we demand Rochon to do the same as it is vital to fight against both covert and overt racism in all places of education and empowerment," according to the event Facebook page.

Gotta get'em all. It's the only way to satisfy the mob.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
What should I have an opinion on, based on the last couple of pages?
Just curious what you think of Pyr's line of argument. I don't know for sure but I suspect you think alot is BS although you may agree with some if its ends. You already kind of tipped your hand earlier when you called some of the protests tilting at windmills.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
They got another one.
quote:
Dr. Dale Brigham, considered one of the most beloved professors at the University of Missouri, has been forced to resign after initially refusing to cancel an exam for students who claimed to feel "unsafe."

"If you don't feel safe coming to class, then don't come to class," Dr. Brigham told his students. "I will be there, and there will be an exam administered in our class," he continued, imploring his students to stand up to the bullies on campus. "If you give into bullies, they win. The only way bullies are defeated is by standing up to them."


This coulda been me. I can totally see myself expressing that opinion with an exam.

However, the story seemingly got the facts wrong - he submitted a resignation, and the administration refused. Ergo, he was forced NOT to resign.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The last couple pages contain the most fact.
No. They just contain links to the most facts you didn't already know. That's not really the same thing.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Just curious what you think of Pyr's line of argument. I don't know for sure but I suspect you think alot is BS although you may agree with some if its ends.
Yeah, I do.
I sympathize very strongly with the intent, but I think the means are ultimately counterproductive, and especially dislike the idea that "safe spaces" can be institutionally established and maintained for the use of those whose deviations from the norm fall into officially recognized categories. I understand completely the (mostly valid) line of thinking that leads to this action, but I fear that it feeds into the further infantilization of college students (and even minorities in general); there is a distinction between people not being confronted about their differences and people demanding that society take steps to minimize the occasions on which they are confronted with their differences.

The worst thing is that the arguments for this kind of separation are nuanced and fairly complicated and require a great deal of high-level sociological understanding, which means that the vast majority of people engaging in those arguments -- on either side -- aren't equipped to do so. Which means that they invariably devolve into "why should we have to ask for something that's our right?" and "why is this your right?" back and forths, which in turn inevitably escalate into the usual accusations of "insensitivity" versus "whining."

I worry that the trigger warning/safe space emphasis you see in many activist circles -- which is generally applied quite well in those circles, although outsiders might be baffled and/or bemused by how much more complicated it appears to make interactions -- makes integration with general society much harder, and unless the intent is to not interact with general society (something that might in fact be implied by some of the "safe spaces" rhetoric) it'll wind up being counterproductive.

TL;DR: I think many of the criticisms of this kind of activism are justified, but rarely justified by the mocking, belittling, "these young thugs are too stupid to know what they're demanding" spin that most of their critics apply. In other words, they're engaging in stupid behavior that is both less stupid and stupid in different ways than, say, Fox News would want people to believe.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
The last couple pages contain the most fact.
No. They just contain links to the most facts you didn't already know.
Not true. I came to this thread tabula rasa. Have read no facts other than what has been presented and linked here.

Your posts and Pyr's are fairly fact free and largely consist of attacking Ornerians for failing to just assume that the students were the good guys. Your fact-empty sneers and the responses and queried of myself and other moderates like Fenring and Josh make up most of the earlier thread. I do appreciate your finally bringing your goods to the table in that last post, though.

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TomDavidson
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Yeah, I know what you think, Pete. You don't need to keep blathering.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Yeah, I know what you think, Pete. You don't need to keep blathering.

I know that you think that you know what I think, sugar plum. That's been the main obstacle to communication for 14 years.

In case you missed it. Thanks again for your penultimate post. That was worth reading. Wish you posted more of that thoughtful sincere stuff.

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Fenring
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There's no way to respond further to Pyr's replies to me as each one in turn is a simple reiteration that I don't understand, don't understand, don't understand. When every attempt to discuss the matter results in being told I'm ignorant there's obviously no discussion being had. I'd just like to point out for the record that Pyr's only basis for calling me ignorant is that I don't take the protester's claims and methods as face value (meaning, agree with them) and discuss them as if they've already been established as legitimate. I'd also like to point out that any attempt to inquire about why Pyr assigns them so much credit is replied to only with the statement that I don't understand and am leveling unfounded accusations at them, even though he blatantly admits he knows no more about them than I do. Since my comments have been based on what I've read - just like his - the conclusion must be that we disagree on what the facts mean. But in Pyr's world there is no disagreement, there is one person being absolutely right and the other being ignorant and deceitful. And thus ends the conversation [Frown]
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Pete at Home
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[nods to Fenring] even though I came around to Pyr's view on this protest, he continues to hurl the same invective to me for not just bowing to his authority and opinion before I had the facts to judge for myself. "Good thing" Kate was willing to look it up this time, he says, but I should have just assumed he was right. He has the same access that Kate has, but cant be bothered to lay out the facts for us and do our "homework." We should be grateful that he condescends to take the time to just tell us what to think. That whole question authority thing only applies when conservatives are the authority.

[ November 12, 2015, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Just curious what you think of Pyr's line of argument. I don't know for sure but I suspect you think alot is BS although you may agree with some if its ends.
Yeah, I do.
I sympathize very strongly with the intent, but I think the means are ultimately counterproductive, and especially dislike the idea that "safe spaces" can be institutionally established and maintained for the use of those whose deviations from the norm fall into officially recognized categories. I understand completely the (mostly valid) line of thinking that leads to this action, but I fear that it feeds into the further infantilization of college students (and even minorities in general); there is a distinction between people not being confronted about their differences and people demanding that society take steps to minimize the occasions on which they are confronted with their differences.

The worst thing is that the arguments for this kind of separation are nuanced and fairly complicated and require a great deal of high-level sociological understanding, which means that the vast majority of people engaging in those arguments -- on either side -- aren't equipped to do so. Which means that they invariably devolve into "why should we have to ask for something that's our right?" and "why is this your right?" back and forths, which in turn inevitably escalate into the usual accusations of "insensitivity" versus "whining."

I worry that the trigger warning/safe space emphasis you see in many activist circles -- which is generally applied quite well in those circles, although outsiders might be baffled and/or bemused by how much more complicated it appears to make interactions -- makes integration with general society much harder, and unless the intent is to not interact with general society (something that might in fact be implied by some of the "safe spaces" rhetoric) it'll wind up being counterproductive.

TL;DR: I think many of the criticisms of this kind of activism are justified, but rarely justified by the mocking, belittling, "these young thugs are too stupid to know what they're demanding" spin that most of their critics apply.

Well said and agreed.

quote:
In other words, they're engaging in stupid behavior that is both less stupid and stupid in different ways than, say, Fox News would want people to believe.
OK, that was more than well said, that was brilliant. I havent seen fox since August when visiting Parents, but I am familiar enough with their metastupidity thay I think I can predict exactly how they have ****ed up this story.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Just curious what you think of Pyr's line of argument. I don't know for sure but I suspect you think alot is BS although you may agree with some if its ends.
Yeah, I do.
I sympathize very strongly with the intent, but I think the means are ultimately counterproductive, and especially dislike the idea that "safe spaces" can be institutionally established and maintained for the use of those whose deviations from the norm fall into officially recognized categories. I understand completely the (mostly valid) line of thinking that leads to this action, but I fear that it feeds into the further infantilization of college students (and even minorities in general); there is a distinction between people not being confronted about their differences and people demanding that society take steps to minimize the occasions on which they are confronted with their differences.

The worst thing is that the arguments for this kind of separation are nuanced and fairly complicated and require a great deal of high-level sociological understanding, which means that the vast majority of people engaging in those arguments -- on either side -- aren't equipped to do so. Which means that they invariably devolve into "why should we have to ask for something that's our right?" and "why is this your right?" back and forths, which in turn inevitably escalate into the usual accusations of "insensitivity" versus "whining."

I worry that the trigger warning/safe space emphasis you see in many activist circles -- which is generally applied quite well in those circles, although outsiders might be baffled and/or bemused by how much more complicated it appears to make interactions -- makes integration with general society much harder, and unless the intent is to not interact with general society (something that might in fact be implied by some of the "safe spaces" rhetoric) it'll wind up being counterproductive.

TL;DR: I think many of the criticisms of this kind of activism are justified, but rarely justified by the mocking, belittling, "these young thugs are too stupid to know what they're demanding" spin that most of their critics apply. In other words, they're engaging in stupid behavior that is both less stupid and stupid in different ways than, say, Fox News would want people to believe.

Well said, Tom.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Just curious what you think of Pyr's line of argument. I don't know for sure but I suspect you think alot is BS although you may agree with some if its ends.
Yeah, I do.
I sympathize very strongly with the intent, but I think the means are ultimately counterproductive, and especially dislike the idea that "safe spaces" can be institutionally established and maintained for the use of those whose deviations from the norm fall into officially recognized categories. I understand completely the (mostly valid) line of thinking that leads to this action, but I fear that it feeds into the further infantilization of college students (and even minorities in general); there is a distinction between people not being confronted about their differences and people demanding that society take steps to minimize the occasions on which they are confronted with their differences.

The worst thing is that the arguments for this kind of separation are nuanced and fairly complicated and require a great deal of high-level sociological understanding, which means that the vast majority of people engaging in those arguments -- on either side -- aren't equipped to do so. Which means that they invariably devolve into "why should we have to ask for something that's our right?" and "why is this your right?" back and forths, which in turn inevitably escalate into the usual accusations of "insensitivity" versus "whining."

I worry that the trigger warning/safe space emphasis you see in many activist circles -- which is generally applied quite well in those circles, although outsiders might be baffled and/or bemused by how much more complicated it appears to make interactions -- makes integration with general society much harder, and unless the intent is to not interact with general society (something that might in fact be implied by some of the "safe spaces" rhetoric) it'll wind up being counterproductive.

TL;DR: I think many of the criticisms of this kind of activism are justified, but rarely justified by the mocking, belittling, "these young thugs are too stupid to know what they're demanding" spin that most of their critics apply. In other words, they're engaging in stupid behavior that is both less stupid and stupid in different ways than, say, Fox News would want people to believe.

That sounds about right. It would be more productive next time if you started by saying what you actually thought up front. Your current style of drive by sniping at adversaries (while leaving others unscathed and unquestioned) seems... Partisan.
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D.W.
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Page 6 sounds about par for Ornery anymore. [Smile]
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Pete at Home
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Par? Page 5.was orgasm and this page is cuddles and afterglow.

Pages 1-4 were par for Ornery these days. [Frown]

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Fenring
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I also liked Tom's reply that everyone is quoting, and my only potential disagreement with it is that I'm not so ready to say I sympathize with the intent. The intent, in fact, is part of what I'm interested further to explore. Let's not forget that the stated intent, and even what some protesters really believe their intent is, are not necessarily the same thing as the real driving force behind the psychology of today's activism. It might be a sign of progress, but I also think it's possible that it's a sign of degradation.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Par? Page 5.was orgasm and this page is cuddles and afterglow.
Do you ever think about a topic without sexualizing it?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
quote:
Par? Page 5.was orgasm and this page is cuddles and afterglow.
Do you ever think about a topic without sexualizing it?
Often. I always try to produce the best possible metaphor or analogy. Not being frigid or repressed, I use sexual metaphors when appropriate.

I challenge you to come up with an analogy that is as on point, as easy to visualize and memorable as what I said.

Go on, I dare you. Tray to restate the essence of what I meant regarding the change in tone from p1 thru 4, v s p5. V. P6. Betcha cant do it without thinking of orgasms and cuddling.

[ November 12, 2015, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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AI Wessex
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Well, since I'm a man just using the word orgasm makes me think of it, however briefly. As to metaphors, I would expect everyone on this august forum to naturally think of a battle to the death between Shakespeare and Bach, watched over and moderated perhaps by Kim Kardashian. Why can't we all get it on -- I mean, get along?
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JoshCrow
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I'm just struggling with the idea that my OP was an enraged booty call.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
[nods to Fenring] even though I came around to Pyr's view on this protest, he continues to hurl the same invective to me for not just bowing to his authority and opinion before I had the facts to judge for myself. "Good thing" Kate was willing to look it up this time, he says, but I should have just assumed he was right. He has the same access that Kate has, but cant be bothered to lay out the facts for us and do our "homework." We should be grateful that he condescends to take the time to just tell us what to think. That whole question authority thing only applies when conservatives are the authority.

No,. My point is that you shouldn't have come out of the gate disparaging the protestors by assuming they were wrong as you did, and aiming them with insults and made up accusations at them.
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kmbboots
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Ew. BTW, am I the only woman left here?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Ew. BTW, am I the only woman left here?

Are you speaking from the heteronormative assumption that all orgasms and afterglow involve a woman, or from a Victorian prefeminist ethos where one mujst never mention sex in mixed company?

[Smile]

[ November 12, 2015, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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NobleHunter
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
I'm just struggling with the idea that my OP was an enraged booty call.

Only for some one who's really, really into sarcasm.
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Pete at Home
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"t you shouldn't have come out of the gate disparaging the protestors by assuming they were wrong as you did, "

I didn't . I responded to facts as they became available, changing my position and tone appropriately with the body of available facts. If you had read as much of the thread as you claimed. ... Why am I even talking to you? You've pledged your explicit intent to remain useless to anyone here and to being no facts or experience to the table. Shoo. Off my leg.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
I'm just struggling with the idea that my OP was an enraged booty call.

No, you started a fight which led to surprise makeup sex.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Well, since I'm a man just using the word orgasm makes me think of it, however briefly. As to metaphors, I would expect everyone on this august forum to naturally think of a battle to the death between Shakespeare and Bach, watched over and moderated perhaps by Kim Kardashian. Why can't we all get it on -- I mean, get along?

There's the Al I love and remember. Welcome back, buddy.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
There's no way to respond further to Pyr's replies to me as each one in turn is a simple reiteration that I don't understand, don't understand, don't understand.
Heck, you even admit it, but yes you still see fit to attack and degrade them instead of trying to understand them.

quote:
When every attempt to discuss the matter results in being told I'm ignorant there's obviously no discussion being had.
You haven't actually attempted to discuss the matter, you've just drummed up a series of attacks that you task someone else with debunking, despite having no basis for the attacks, but instead actively relying on your lack of understanding as justification to insult and degrade them.


quote:
I'd just like to point out for the record that Pyr's only basis for calling me ignorant is that I don't take the protester's claims and methods as face value (meaning, agree with them) and discuss them as if they've already been established as legitimate.
So not insulting them and demonizing them because you don't understand them is tantamount to agreeing with them? Heavens forbid you show them even a little bit of basic respect even if you suspect that you might disagree with them. You're copping to a pretty horrific attitude here, though it makes it clear why you try to lean of false accusations that I nad other people are taking a black or white "With them or against them" attitude, since that's effectively what your doing by equating basic respect and decency toward people that you might disagree with with unqualified support.

quote:
I'd also like to point out that any attempt to inquire about why Pyr assigns them so much credit is replied to only with the statement that I don't understand and am leveling unfounded accusations at them, even though he blatantly admits he knows no more about them than I do.
So, you're pretty much saying yo'u're starting out with the bias that they're wrong and justifying dismissing and insulting them based on your lack of knowledge? You're right- I don't know much more than you do. The difference here is that I'm not willing to use that ignorance to denigrate them as you are, but rather starting from the basic assumption that anyone you claim to view as an equal should get, that they are reasonably intelligent and doing the best that they can given their situation.

quote:
Since my comments have been based on what I've read - just like his - the conclusion must be that we disagree on what the facts mean. But in Pyr's world there is no disagreement, there is one person being absolutely right and the other being ignorant and deceitful.
"Deceitful" is a nice random attack here. You haven't based your attacks on facts; you've based your attacks on prejudiced assumptions. My disagreement here isn't on any facts of the situation at all, but based on your chose to justify attacking them and insulting them despite your similar lack of knowledge. It doesn't take any special knowledge of the situation to admit my ignorance and thus reserve judgement and treat them in fair and equitable manner by giving them the benefit of the doubt instead of launching judgemental attacks on them that only serve to distract from whatever message they may be trying to express.
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Pete at Home
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C'mon, Pyr. Come in out of the cold, drop.the cloak of vanity and come join the big naked group hug.

[ November 12, 2015, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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NobleHunter
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Corpus Christie, Pete. Might you consider that your willingness to resort to sexual metaphors inhibits communication?
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