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Author Topic: Mizzou President resigns
JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
Is this a reference to the flasher analogy? I posted my response before that was up, I guess there was a brief posting delay between them which put his up first. My comment wasn't a response to that but to the comments previous to it. It was my way of saying that Pyr's comments were just repetitions of what I had pointed out already and there was nothing more to say.

Haha, no, just a way of saying you're wasting your time. His argument really is just "you don't understand" over and over.

I mean, our last exchange on this thread he basically told me I shouldn't express an opinion about what the black community should do to combat the problem - because doing so would be "dictating" (as if I could tell people what to do) and patronizing (because surely these ideas occurred to them - as if 'they' represented a perfectly reasoned hive-mind or something). He basically told me to shut up or agree with him, and when I called him on it he didn't respond, so I took that to be accurate reading of his opinion..

[ November 12, 2015, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
Since Pete like such metaphors so much-
They're like someone whose being harassed by a flasher in the middle of the night, and tried various ways of asking him to go away and leave them alone, so they finally scream and make a racket to get other people wake up and help them. And you wake up, see what's going on, and instead of actually caring about the problem, you start yelling at them because they violated noise ordinances, woke you up in the middle of the night, and even tricked you into looking at a guy with his pants down, saying that they should have handled the problem quietly by nicely asking the guy to leave them alone.

For the record, I neither like nor carelessly throw around analogies to rape, exhibitionism, or other sex offenses. Not shaming you for using them, but please dont cite me for precedent. I do try to avoid careless reference to images likely to trigger PTSD.

Speaking to your analogy, there are key facts missing. If you are in the flasher's house, she has a right to take her clothes off in her own house, so if you wake up the neighborhood yelling about it, you might find neighbors unsympathetic

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Pyrtolin
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So, what, black people that don't like being mistreated should leave the white people's university/country instead of trying to protest abuse?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Haha, no, just a way of saying you're wasting your time. His argument really is just "you don't understand" over and over.
No, my argument is that you're attacking without any evidence to substantiate the accusations and not making any effort to understand.

quote:
I mean, our last exchange on this thread he basically told me I shouldn't express an opinion about what the black community should do to combat the problem - because doing so would be "dictating" (as if I could tell people what to do) and patronizing (because surely these ideas occurred to them - as if 'they' represented a perfectly reasoned hive-mind or something). He basically told me to shut up or agree with him, and when I called him on it he didn't respond, so I took that to be accurate reading of his opinion..
I'll go back and find that since I apparently missed it.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Haha, no, just a way of saying you're wasting your time. His argument really is just "you don't understand" over and over.
No, my argument is that you're attacking without any evidence to substantiate the accusations and not making any effort to understand.
"Evidence"? This is about feelings and morality. It's not an argument about "what is", it is about "what ought to be". This is about values in conflict with each other.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Do you understand the difference between offering advice and dictating behavior? What does the former look like to you, and how is that not what I did?
The former begins with being asked for advice by someone who trusts your experience and feels that your perspective may add value. Unsolicited advice, especially that which contains implicit threats, is, at best, degrading- putting the knowledge and capabilities of the one being corrected into question, but more generally a way to try to passively dictate the behavior of others.

I mean, I get the general impulse. BEing taught that your opinion is always valuable, that you're smart enough to figure things out on your own and come up with good solutions. But you're not giving the people involved the credit that they're at least as smart as you here, that they haven't already considered these factors and, based on their experience, decided to so something else that they know to be more effective.

If you can think of it, they can think of it too, especially given that they have more hands on experience with their particular situation. At that point you should be asking and investigating what they found that possibility to be unworkable instead of implicitly asserting that they're just clueless about their own situation.

Did you just basically silence me from expressing any opinion on this topic (lest I be "dictating" what someone should do, as you say)? Are you comfortable saying this topic should therefore not be discussed by anyone who disagrees with your position?
No. Not even remotely. I criticized your oppressive approach to the issue. THat's only silencing if you choose to be silent in response instead of further discussing the matter.

But to be clear, you're not actually expressing your opinion on the topic, you're attacking the protesters for not conforming to your will. You're actively implying that they're foolish and don't know what they're doing because you happen to disagree with it, and asserting your superiority by choosing to tell them how to behave to appease you.

You're free to do that, but they're free to ignore such an ignorant attitude or even call you out on how that kind of attack on them is insulting and dismissive. And you have the benefit of being on the side of the status quo, so you actually have the power to harm them by allowing others to dismiss them, while they only power their words have in regard to you is the possibility that you might actually chose to listen and choose a less offensive approach, one that actually treats the as reasonable equals and seeks understanding rather than to undercut and denigrate them.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Haha, no, just a way of saying you're wasting your time. His argument really is just "you don't understand" over and over.
No, my argument is that you're attacking without any evidence to substantiate the accusations and not making any effort to understand.
"Evidence"? This is about feelings and morality. It's not an argument about "what is", it is about "what ought to be". This is about values in conflict with each other.
How does that justify the kind of judgemental demonization of their actions that you've chosen to engage in? I'd full agree- make it about what out to be; what can be done in the future to avoid forcing them to take such drastic steps just to get people to pay enough attention to make change, rather than about how upset you are that they actually made it so you couldn't keep ignoring them.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Haha, no, just a way of saying you're wasting your time. His argument really is just "you don't understand" over and over.
No, my argument is that you're attacking without any evidence to substantiate the accusations and not making any effort to understand.
"Evidence"? This is about feelings and morality. It's not an argument about "what is", it is about "what ought to be". This is about values in conflict with each other.
Don't you think that black students ought to be able to study free from harassment and threats? Don't you think that a university president ought to be held accountable when he fails to address this responsibility?
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Pete at Home
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Pyr, when you heard my analogy of orgasm and sfterglow cuddling, did you somehow assume that referred to a nonconsensual sexual battery? Denial of the basic idea of consenting adults might explain some of your hostility to anything I say ... Dude, I didnt even have sex on my honeymoon because my ex didnt feel ready, and didnt give her a bad time about it either. I was the only male asked to speak at the first Take Back the Night in Provo Utah. I'm myself a survivor. Sorry if my enthusiasm for talking about sex seems slutty to you, but I certainly do not trivialize or downplay sexual violence.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

But to be clear, you're not actually expressing your opinion on the topic, you're attacking the protesters for not conforming to your will. You're actively implying that they're foolish and don't know what they're doing because you happen to disagree with it, and asserting your superiority by choosing to tell them how to behave to appease you.

What makes you think you can tell me what my motivation is? Did you know that's not allowed on this forum? There's a reason. I am reporting this post.
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Pete at Home
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quote:

ow does that justify the kind of judgemental demonization of their actions that you've chosen to engage in? I'd full agree- make it about what out to be; what can be done in the future to avoid forcing them to take such drastic steps just to get people to pay enough attention to make change, rather than about how upset you are that they actually made it so you couldn't keep ignoring them.

You arent being consistent. You tell me they dont care what I think, and then you say they have a right to make it so they cant be ignored. All I said is that if they force me to pay attention to them then they have a duty to explain why they made the commotion. Kate showed that they did explain. And still you try to shame me with strange half baked analogies. If you wake me up screaming for help and I come over asking what the matter is, and you say go away, I am creating a safe space in the middle of a public road and cant be, I am going to walk away saying what a fruitcake. That doesnt make me Dr Evil; I'm making a reasonable inference based on available facts. if more facts come in later, I revise my assessment.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Pyr, when you heard my analogy of orgasm and sfterglow cuddling, did you somehow assume that referred to a nonconsensual sexual battery? Denial of the basic idea of consenting adults might explain some of your hostility to anything I say ... Dude, I didnt even have sex on my honeymoon because my ex didnt feel ready, and didnt give her a bad time about it either. I was the only male asked to speak at the first Take Back the Night in Provo Utah. I'm myself a survivor. Sorry if my enthusiasm for talking about sex seems slutty to you, but I certainly do not trivialize or downplay sexual violence.

I haven't noticed you downplaying sexual violence; I just think that the way you slather it into conversations is distasteful and crude.
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Pete at Home
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"
No. Not even remotely. I criticized your oppressive approach to the issue"

How can an opinion tentatively offered on an obscure forum numbering a doxen males and one patient and ever wise female [Wink] be "oppressive"?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Pyr, when you heard my analogy of orgasm and sfterglow cuddling, did you somehow assume that referred to a nonconsensual sexual battery? Denial of the basic idea of consenting adults might explain some of your hostility to anything I say ... Dude, I didnt even have sex on my honeymoon because my ex didnt feel ready, and didnt give her a bad time about it either. I was the only male asked to speak at the first Take Back the Night in Provo Utah. I'm myself a survivor. Sorry if my enthusiasm for talking about sex seems slutty to you, but I certainly do not trivialize or downplay sexual violence.

I haven't noticed you downplaying sexual violence; I just think that the way you slather it into conversations is distasteful and crude.
I understood what you said, Kate, and havent made such analogies since you clarified what you meant by the rolling eye emoticon. What I said here was to Pyr, who made a flasher analogy and said this was Pete's sort of analogy.

That is the reason my paragraph starts Pyr comma. Rather than Kate comma.

[ November 12, 2015, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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kmbboots
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I also don't think that you need to conform to my personal tastes either. Just letting you know what I think of it.

I know. I was backing you up on the sexual violence part.

[ November 12, 2015, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I also don't think that you need to conform to my personal tastes either. Just letting you know what I think of it.

I know. I was backing you up on the sexual violence part.

Ah. Thank you, Kate.That means a lot to me.
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Fenring
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I've been thinking more about the situation at Mizzou. Like Tom, I was initially pleased that the students had recognized their own power and leveraged it in order to be taken seriously, notwithstanding what I thought about the other details we've discussed. But something I couldn't put my finger on was bothering me, and last night I realized what it was. It seems that the linchpin of the protest - which got them their desired result - was the football team. People like Pyr no doubt feel that the fact that it was the black members of the team helped to legitimize the authenticity of the protesters' claims. But upon reflection I wonder whether the recognition of how much power the football players have is a good thing. After all, one thing we decry in society overall is the undue influence on politics that powerful parties have. We like to think of the democratic system as being "one person one vote", and when lobbyists wield significantly more relative power than average voters this upsets people.

Well it seems that things are no different on Mizzou campus, since the football players were the power that brought the house down. From now on when the administration or faculty want to make changes or enact policy they'll always have to keep in mind not to upset their sports teams. It won't be that big a deal to them - just like it wasn't for the last several months - if some 'ordinary' students are upset about something, but the sports teams will have to be kept happy at all costs. This turns the athletes into the equivalent of college lobbyists, where their wishes are going to be given priority over and above their peers just because of the money and power in the college that they bring to bear. In this case some of the athletes championed a cause that perhaps liberals can relate to. But what if it had been the other way around and the football players had gone on strike to champion an anti-liberal cause? That's kind of hypothetical but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm saying. It's kind of good that they realized what kind of power they actually had, but I'm suggesting it's probably not a good thing that the athletes have that kind of relative power in the first place. I guess it's kind of ironic in this case since the ex-Prez was bolstering the athletics there.

If one is going to take away something from these events, I fear that the real story here is that when you want something to get done you go to those with power and arrange for them to side with you. This sounds kind of "duh" in a sense, but it seems to reinforce the power-structure mentality wherein the first order of business is to obtain powerful allies and/or money to leverage. With those people in your pocket you can proceed to get what you want. I'm concerned that this too closely parallels what goes on in Washington, and that the message these protesters will walk away with is to make alliance with oligarchs or whoever can throw their weight around to get your side to win. The protest mentality of the 60's was for the 'little people' to band together, but I guess here they learned that you need some big guns too.

I don't mean to denigrate the black football players, by the way; their power in this situation is somewhat incidental to the fact that they happen to be good at a sport. The university system itself is what gives them this power. But it's always the system that gives anyone in particular power over others, and just like in real life this situation illustrates that not all students are made equal.

[ November 13, 2015, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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kmbboots
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Welcome to the world, Fenring.

Meanwhile, from a campus where students are not protesting...
quote:

With the increasingly troubling events that have been occurring on many college and university campuses, it is critical that the Northwestern University community come together to ask difficult questions, identify and confront campus and societal injustices, and continue to try to make Northwestern a place where each of us is genuinely welcomed, supported and empowered.

Today (Friday, Nov. 13), from 7:30 p.m. to 9 p.m. at Lutkin Hall on the Evanston campus, the next in a growing list of opportunities to gather together and learn from one another will take place. Jabbar Bennett, Associate Provost for Diversity and Inclusion, and Patricia Telles-Irvin, Vice President for Student Affairs, will lead a dialogue about the recent developments across the country affecting Black and often-marginalized students on college campuses.

Next week on Monday at noon in Norris University Center, and Friday at 5 p.m. in Guild Lounge of Scott Hall, there will be two more listening sessions regarding the Black House. Students and other members of the Northwestern community are encouraged to participate. The goal is to receive feedback from all interested parties and for Northwestern to be as inclusive and transparent as possible. After the listening sessions are concluded, the Black House Facility Review Committee will make recommendations based on this dialogue to Vice President Telles-Irvin.

The newly formed Task Force on the Black Student Experience, the extension of our Sustained Dialogue program, and the creation of the Student Enrichment Services office are but a few of the efforts we have been making to ensure that we provide the best experience possible for everyone.

While we have been addressing some of these concerns as well as other important national issues on our campus, it is clear that we have to do more. We will. We not only invite your input and suggestions on how we can best do that, but we need your ideas and we greatly value them. If we are to create the Northwestern we all deserve, it will be by working together.

Morton Schapiro
President and Professor


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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Don't you think that black students ought to be able to study free from harassment and threats? Don't you think that a university president ought to be held accountable when he fails to address this responsibility?

To the first question - absolutely they ought to.

To the second - no, because it is not his responsibility. Just as the problem is a diffuse one, so too is the solution. There is no centralized way to combat racism except perhaps the legal system, and legal routes are more or less exhausted because they have run up against other important legal concepts (e.g. free speech).

This is one of those cases where waging war on a concept (racism, terror, etc.) is a collective endeavor and really has to be done from the bottom up. A top-down strategy to fight terror, for example, would be "bomb the terrorists" - but of course there is an endless supply. Fighting racists is a similar game of whack-a-mole, where all that will happen is they will be driven into their caves and learn to speak in codes and start their own news networks.

Racism is just reality. It's part of being a human. I'm a racist - and I do battle with my own biases every day, because I recognize them for what they are and don't let them dictate my behaviors. But if you open up people's heads, all these little biases are lurking about and people must learn to do the hard work to combat them.

Everyone can fight racism - the battlegrounds are internal, and people must understand why it's worth fighting. It will never "go away" so long as differences exist!

Far better at this point, with legal avenues in exhaustion, to learn how to do battle in the mind.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
But upon reflection I wonder whether the recognition of how much power the football players have is a good thing.
Given how exploited most college football players are, sure. I certainly hope the NCAA is pissing in its pants about this.
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kmbboots
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Nonsense. There is setting an example. There is providing opportunities for dialog (see above). There is holding accountable the people doing the harassment.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
But upon reflection I wonder whether the recognition of how much power the football players have is a good thing.
Given how exploited most college football players are, sure. I certainly hope the NCAA is pissing in its pants about this.
I suppose there is a certain glee one could take just on this account.
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TomDavidson
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I actually fully expect the NCAA to issue some rule saying that anyone with a football scholarship in certain divisions will lose that scholarship immediately if they refuse to take the field for any reason.
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Gaoics79
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I think if football players make a habit of boycotting play they'll eventually realize that they have as much or more to lose than anyone else, a lesson they'll learn the first time a university decides to grow a spine.
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TomDavidson
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Yes, it takes some bravery to actually strike.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

But to be clear, you're not actually expressing your opinion on the topic, you're attacking the protesters for not conforming to your will. You're actively implying that they're foolish and don't know what they're doing because you happen to disagree with it, and asserting your superiority by choosing to tell them how to behave to appease you.

What makes you think you can tell me what my motivation is? Did you know that's not allowed on this forum? There's a reason. I am reporting this post.
I don't know what you're motivation is, I'm not guessing anything about that. Im commenting on _what_ you are doing, not the why of it. You may not mean to be doing that, but then, perhaps, that should be an indication to you that you should change your behavior to be more in line with what you want to be conveying rather than doubling down on degrading and attacking them.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Nonsense. There is setting an example. There is providing opportunities for dialog (see above). There is holding accountable the people doing the harassment.

I don't think a dialogue is possible with people like Pyrtolin as this thread demonstrates. So there is really nothing to talk about or debate. The PC fascists just need to be opposed, discredited and ridiculed wherever possible.
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JoshCrow
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Pyr - I'll tell you what: you suggest a way of wording the point I was making in a way that isn't "attacking" them, and I'll be satisfied.

Show me how it's done. I put forward that in fact you simply don't like my point of view and have branded it an "attack" regardless of presentation.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The PC fascists just need to be opposed, discredited and ridiculed wherever possible.
Why?
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Fenring
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Another question for those who may have found better information than I have, is to what extent is it true that there is a material lack of safety for black people on Mizzou campus? By this I mean to include anything such as violence, physical aggression, threats, taunting or mocking in public, vandalism and other crimes, etc. I do not include in this category people civilly speaking their mind about various things, even if those opinions are very offensive to certain people. Just for example, a conference about "male culture and how to pick up women" does not count as unsafe in the way I mean it, even though it may make people feel uneasy, whereas physically approaching someone else and making aggressive or hateful comments towards them definitely would count as unsafe by this standard.

I've done a rudimentary Google search to look for evidence of violence or aggression on campus that would serve to illustrate that the protesters were correct that the campus wasn't safe for black people. Naturally all the top Google hits are of the two recent Yik Yak messages issuing threats following the protest controversy. But in whatever articles I find they don't cite any other examples from recent history other than those two posts, the fecal Swastika (which is hardly anti-black in particular), the van of yelling idiots, and the drunken kid who walked in on a black event.

I hear anecdotal mentions of "there are people on campus standing in circles chanting white supremacist stuff" and "we have people in vans harassing black people". Taken in that form it makes it sound like an epidemic, whereas all I can find evidence of is the one-off event and no other occurrence. One van of yahoos being dicks is certainly a bad thing, and a group of racist buddies would certainly be a blight to whomever crossed their path, but this is not the same as claiming that 'black people are being harassed by people in vans.'

There is also the recent KKK hoax where it was claimed that the KKK was coming to Mizzou campus and the police verified that this was simply false, despite several people posting pictures and 'evidence' that the KKK were there to mess up the black people.

Regarding the two threatening Yik Yak messages this is certainly not acceptable and it would be good if those who sent them were found, but that happened after all of this got sensationalized and although I don't approve I can kind of understand a couple of people being upset over what happened with these protesters and making a foolish quasi-ironic post to try to put them in their place. Or maybe they were real threats, who knows. But those posts don't speak at all to whether there has actually been any material cause for concern for black students for, say, the past year.

So my question is really about parsing the details of what the protesters think is unsafe. Do they know something that they're not disclosing to the public about real safety concerns that were being ignored for the past year? Or by 'feel unsafe' do they mean to say that they don't feel safe being exposed to offensive ideas and a lack of support for their cause? If the former then I hope something is done about it. But if it's the latter then that is another matter entirely.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
You tell me they dont care what I think, and then you say they have a right to make it so they cant be ignored.


Those are not incompatible. What you think doesn't matter, just the fact enough people are paying attention that the people who have the power to affect change in the situation are forced to act does.

quote:
All I said is that if they force me to pay attention to them then they have a duty to explain why they made the commotion.
Which they did sufficiently for anyone who cared to investigate the issue to understand what was going on.

quote:
Kate showed that they did explain.
Which was kind of her, she chose to do your homework for you. That doesn't imply that anyone is obligated to pick up your responsibilities because you demand that they pick up your responsibilities.

quote:
If you wake me up screaming for help and I come over asking what the matter is, and you say go away, I am creating a safe space in the middle of a public road and cant be, I am going to walk away saying what a fruitcake. That doesnt make me Dr Evil; I'm making a reasonable inference based on available facts. if more facts come in later, I revise my assessment.
Sure, but that in no way even remotely parallels anything going on here.The source of the threat is obvious, the evidence of the matter is there for you to easily see if you make the effort to look into it. You're not being asked to go away, just to stop insulting the person person under attack take a time out from trying to protect themselves to dance to your demands that they fully debrief you, and in fact actively blaming them for defending themselves.

I guess the one thing my mathphor forgot to include was that the police cief was right there, on the scene, dozing, and deciding that he'd rather finish his nap and ignoring their less strident appeals, because there weren't any witnesses, so even if the victim did claim that they were ignored later, he could argue from a position of more credibility that he didn't see anything, couldn't have done anything, and was really, honestly taking all the possible steps needed to prevent such things from happening.

They don't need you to understand, they just need the police chief to realize that he's being watched by outside witnesses such that he no longer has the option to do nothing, even if his response is to now try to cite everyone as if the victim was equally responsible for illegal behavior as himself and the attacker.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
I don't think a dialogue is possible with people like Pyrtolin as this thread demonstrates. So there is really nothing to talk about or debate. The PC fascists just need to be opposed, discredited and ridiculed wherever possible.

Showing respect for others is fascism. Nice.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
I think if football players make a habit of boycotting play they'll eventually realize that they have as much or more to lose than anyone else, a lesson they'll learn the first time a university decides to grow a spine.

They already realize they have a lot to lose from boycotting play,. that's why it was significant that they felt were forced to do it in order to actually gain some traction on the issue. Good job, once again presenting a degrading insult as if were a meaningful insight.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
To the second - no, because it is not his responsibility.
This is patenently rediculous in regards to the University environment itself. As the president he is absolutely, and unquestionably responsible for the nature of the environment has had full authority to make changes as needed to improve it.

You're right that he can't magically make prejudice go away, but again that's why it's important to not misuse racism in a confusing way that suggests that it's a redundant way of talking about prejudice. There's no excuse for giving such preference to individual prejudices against minority students on a system level that they fell unsafe at the university. He can make the environment hostile to acting on such prejudices, so that people are actually forced to confront and deal with them on a personal basis, rather than accommodating to them, so that they feel like they're encouraged to hold and act on them.

He could establish reporting systems in the university where minority students can more freely discuss issues they're facing without working about retaliation, and act on their reports in active and visible ways rathe than continuing to ignore them.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
. It seems that the linchpin of the protest - which got them their desired result - was the football team. People like Pyr no doubt feel that the fact that it was the black members of the team helped to legitimize the authenticity of the protesters' claims. But upon reflection I wonder whether the recognition of how much power the football players have is a good thing.
It's absolutely not. It's somewhat tangential, but they entire university sport situation is broken and abusive from top to bottom, tough this is one of the few times that they players have actually managed to be the ones holding the cards, rather than NCAA or institution that profits from them and basically tells them they should thank it for the crumbs it can spare to toss them.

(And, to be fair, it variable based on the degree to which sports are part of a given universities identity. At Carnegie Mellon, the Tartans probably couldn't exercise a fraction of that leverage; the Kiltie band and bagpipers might actually have more sway.)

This really goes directly in line with the general university funding issues that we've talked about elsewhere, as their income from grants and from ("evasion" of) estate taxes dries up, tuition, sports, commercialization, and other more abusable frameworks become more important to them.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
The PC fascists just need to be opposed, discredited and ridiculed wherever possible.
Why?
Why does one oppose any dictator? Cause I like freedom.
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D.W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
I don't think a dialogue is possible with people like Pyrtolin as this thread demonstrates. So there is really nothing to talk about or debate. The PC fascists just need to be opposed, discredited and ridiculed wherever possible.

Showing respect for others is fascism. Nice.
Nope... this is more what is being referred to.
quote:
The source of the threat is obvious, the evidence of the matter is there for you to easily see if you make the effort to look into it.
So which is it? Are you dragging out a particularly sad joke because it's funny -or- do you believe we are all "playing dumb" when we say it's not obvious to us?

To those on the outside, both of the collage scene and because we are white, the acts we imagine provoking this response seem, well, unthinkable. The incidents cited are worth investigation and effort being put into finding the perpetrators. While I agree they are very offensive I don't equate that to a lack of security.

Now maybe "safety" has more to do with mental wellbeing than physical. If so, spell it out. Treat us like we are slow and lack context rather than assuming the worst of us. I'm always willing to accept that I may be ignorant. I get worked up fast when others assume I must be out to harm them because of course they KNOW... [Roll Eyes]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Pyr, when you heard my analogy of orgasm and sfterglow cuddling, did you somehow assume that referred to a nonconsensual sexual battery?

No. When I heard you defend using sexual metaphors because it suited your personal tastes without regard to how others might feel about it, I felt I should give you a taste of your own medicine by applying one in a way that might make you feel uncomfortable by reaching for a close sexual metaphor instead of finding one in a less sensitive area. The nature of racism is why comparable to other forms of non-consensual assault, not your previous metaphor.

Sensitivities vary greatly when it comes to random injections of sex into non-sexual conversations. Perhaps keep your reaction here in mind when tempted to do so instead of suggesting that others should have to suck it up because you want to do it. Feel free to recast the metaphor as an attacker punching the victim in the face.

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Gaoics79
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Tom to add to what I said - 20 years ago I thought the PC movement was a joke destined to die out in relative obscurity or as a whipping dog for right wing pundits but little reach beyond that.

I was wrong.

Social media gives these totalitarians the perfect instrument to spread their wicked ideology. They have already functionally killed or at least mortally wounded the idea of free speech in the educated youth.

Am I afraid the PC brigade will drag me out of my home and shoot me in the street? Nope, at least not yet. Certainly it would come to that if they had the power - as Pyr repeatedly demonstrates there is simply no limit to what someone will do under the influence of an ideology that considers contrary thought and speech to be tantamount to direct assault and brooks no dissent. Their arguments, as Fenring noted, are reminiscent of what was going on in the Soviet Union. We all know how that turned out.

So yeah, this kind of lunacy does really need to be opposed as much as possible.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
So which is it? Are you dragging out a particularly sad joke because it's funny -or- do you believe we are all "playing dumb" when we say it's not obvious to us?
I don't say you're playing dumb. I say that the decision to attack and demonize instead of asking "Why would they feel motivated to do this?" and making an effort to investigate is making an argument from ignorance. That's not playing dumb, that applying prejudice to compensate for a lack of knowledge instead of seeking information in a nonjudgmental manner.

quote:
To those on the outside, both of the collage scene and because we are white, the acts we imagine provoking this response seem, well, unthinkable. The incidents cited are worth investigation and effort being put into finding the perpetrators. While I agree they are very offensive I don't equate that to a lack of security.
Why not? If you don't then perhaps you should take a step back from your current perspective and try to see what advantages you have that help insulate you from being threatened by such actions; how an appearance that pus you under constant threat of violence and a society that has multitude ways of communicating degradation and violent threats might make those things that communicate real danger to you.

If you cam from a place where anyone wearing a purple shirt was free to punch you in the face if they felt like it, don't you think your reaction to someone handing a purple shirt out in a public place might make you feel significantly less safe than people who didn't grow up with such a constant threat hanging over them?

quote:
Now maybe "safety" has more to do with mental wellbeing than physical.
Wellbeing is wellbeing. THe only reason to separate mental and physical is to understand how to address them. It's absurd to suggest that one is more or less important than the other.

quote:
If so, spell it out. Treat us like we are slow and lack context rather than assuming the worst of us.
And again, I'm not assuming anything here- I'm responding to the manifest attacks and judgemental criticism that people are actually putting forth. I don't need to assume anything to point out that that's a harmful and degrading way to engage with the issue instead of starting from a point of asking non-judgmental questions to gain a better understanding.

You allude to it above even. Instead of saying "These people are horrible for acting this way!" why not start with "How bad are conditions that they felt driven to do this?"

quote:
I get worked up fast when others assume I must be out to harm them because of course they KNOW.
It's not that you intend or don't intend to harm them. It's that the very nature of the degrading attacks people are making is harmful, even if they don't realize what they're doing. Trust me, I'd be far less sympathetic and far more strident if I thought you were actually intending to hurt them- it's because I'm assuming that what your saying is coming from a place of ignorance rather than a place of malice that I think it worth the effort to point out just how such an attitude is harmful.

[ November 13, 2015, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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