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Author Topic: Mizzou President resigns
Pyrtolin
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quote:
Tom to add to what I said - 20 years ago I thought the PC movement was a joke destined to die out in relative obscurity or as a whipping dog for right wing pundits but little reach beyond that.
Well, certainly, that's what the people who chose to try to mock the notion of actualyl treating people with respect instead of feeling free to insult and degrade anyone we wanted to with impunity wanted to happen by inventing the mocking "PC" label.

And I see you're still fighting the good fight here and standing up your your right to insult and degrade others and be lauded for it instead of possibly having to face criticism for doing so.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
The PC fascists just need to be opposed, discredited and ridiculed wherever possible.
Why?
Why does one oppose any dictator? Cause I like freedom.
Yes, your freedom to act oppressively toward others should totally be our highest priority to ensure that you never need to fear feeling the slightest bit of criticism for.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

He could establish reporting systems in the university where minority students can more freely discuss issues they're facing without working about retaliation, and act on their reports in active and visible ways rathe than continuing to ignore them.

What sort of concrete actions would you recommend be taken against, say... me. If I espoused the view I have in this thread (the one where you said I was attacking/patronizing black people), and someone reported it (because they were uncomfortable)... what would you do to me?

I'm curious, if you were president, how would I fare at your school?

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jasonr
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Josh, that's an excellent question. So Pyr, supposing I continue to spit on your perspective (figuritavely speaking) and refuse to see reason no matter what. And supposing you're emperor for the week, what would you be willing to do about it? What is the remedy?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Pyr - I'll tell you what: you suggest a way of wording the point I was making in a way that isn't "attacking" them, and I'll be satisfied.

Show me how it's done. I put forward that in fact you simply don't like my point of view and have branded it an "attack" regardless of presentation.

Can you articulate a point you were tying to make outside of telling them how you think they should be acting?

You could certainly ask some information gathering questions- "How long has this particular movement been growing at the school?" "What other ways have they tried engaging with the university administration?" "What have other people in a similar situation done to make progress in the past?"

I'm seriously not clear on what point is left in what you said when you remove the parts about "This is howto appease me and other white people". I mean, if that was you're point, then you're basically saying what's been said about any major civil rights leader in their time, but then revised out of history to cover our embarrassment at claiming it once they won out and actually managed to motivate some degree of change.

I mean, if you're point is "Their actions are going to make white people uncomfortable" then I fully agree. Because that discomfort is an essential step toward achieving change. People who are comfortable don't make changes- they actively defend their comfort.

It's only when you continue to make them uncomfortable, and criticize them and make them feel even more uncomfortable for bad reactions to that discomfort, that there's any hope of making progress toward an improvement in the status quo.

That's been the fundamental principle behind every successful movement, including Gandhi and MLK's efforts.

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D.W.
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quote:
Wellbeing is wellbeing. THe only reason to separate mental and physical is to understand how to address them. It's absurd to suggest that one is more or less important than the other.
And yet to me this statement is absurd. Of course physical wellbeing is more important. I can’t make it “not hurt” or make my bones “not be broken” by choice. I expect the police (and in this case campus policy) to help mitigate any physical threat. As to mitigating occurrences of verbal attacks, the law (and to some extent the collage) has their hands tied.

quote:
You allude to it above even. Instead of saying "These people are horrible for acting this way!" why not start with "How bad are conditions that they felt driven to do this?"
But what has actually happened is a variation on that. “This seems a disproportionate or ill directed response to the reported conditions; what did we miss?”

Now a perfectly valid response to that is to defend why it is indeed valid and well focused in light of only the conditions the questioner acknowledges. Is that what you are trying to say? It seems to me you are every bit as willing to assume the worst of the other side as you are accusing others of being.

quote:
's because I'm assuming that what your saying is coming from a place of ignorance rather than a place of malice that I think it worth the effort to point out just how such an attitude is harmful.
That you feel you’ve pointed this out is one of the most depressing things I’ve read in awhile.
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jasonr
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You didn't answer his question Pyr. Josh is a professor at a university. He is never going to agree with you. So what needs to be done? Spit it out man.
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D.W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
The PC fascists just need to be opposed, discredited and ridiculed wherever possible.
Why?
Why does one oppose any dictator? Cause I like freedom.
Yes, your freedom to act oppressively toward others should totally be our highest priority to ensure that you never need to fear feeling the slightest bit of criticism for.
Objection to PC fascists would be if an ally was fighting a war against a shared enemy but were using chemical and biological weapons to do so. You want the enemy defeated but yet you still find the tools employed distasteful.
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D.W.
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quote:
I mean, if you're point is "Their actions are going to make white people uncomfortable" then I fully agree.
The point is: Will this firing make F' all of a difference? Was this a symbolic sacrifice or a tactical move that is likely to improve things?
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Am I afraid the PC brigade will drag me out of my home and shoot me in the street? Nope, at least not yet. Certainly it would come to that if they had the power - as Pyr repeatedly demonstrates there is simply no limit to what someone will do under the influence of an ideology that considers contrary thought and speech to be tantamount to direct assault...
You know, even had Pyr the power, I find it very unlikely that he would drag you out of your house and shoot you in the street. Not even for insinuating that he might.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

He could establish reporting systems in the university where minority students can more freely discuss issues they're facing without working about retaliation, and act on their reports in active and visible ways rathe than continuing to ignore them.

What sort of concrete actions would you recommend be taken against, say... me. If I espoused the view I have in this thread (the one where you said I was attacking/patronizing black people), and someone reported it (because they were uncomfortable)... what would you do to me?

I'm curious, if you were president, how would I fare at your school?

I'm not sure why you imply that I should take punitive action against you, since there's nothing useful to be accomplished from doing so.

I would talk to those students that felt under threat from you about what I could do to provide them with a forum where they could be sure that they could discuss their issues and work for change without being subject to judgemental attacks. I'd very likely help them try to better convey to you why such attacks on them are demeaning and imply a lack of respect, though, having the resources of a university president, I'd probably reach out to academic experts on the faculty and at large in the community or even country to help arrange a series of talks and presentations for the entire community that addressed the issue and those around it.

Unless you actually took some form of actionable action, I'd focus on giving those that that were marginalized access to sufficient resources to carve out their own space where they could feel supported, understood, and protected

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
You didn't answer his question Pyr. Josh is a professor at a university. He is never going to agree with you. So what needs to be done? Spit it out man.

I need answers to my questions before I can answer his. I can't meaningfully restate his point if I don't know what his point is. Absent clarification m the only actual point I could find, which is did reiterate nonjudgmentally, was "This will make white people uncomfortable"
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Pyr - I'll tell you what: you suggest a way of wording the point I was making in a way that isn't "attacking" them, and I'll be satisfied.

Show me how it's done. I put forward that in fact you simply don't like my point of view and have branded it an "attack" regardless of presentation.

Can you articulate a point you were tying to make outside of telling them how you think they should be acting?

You could certainly ask some information gathering questions- [...]

I'm seriously not clear on what point is left [...]

Your post attempts to change/erase my point rather than reword it - so I think you understand that my very point was my suggestion of "what black students should do about it". I can only assume I was right and that you consider this opinion to be an "attack" regardless of how it is presented.

I wonder if I found black people who agreed with me and espoused this viewpoint if you would feel like the argument suddenly has some merit. I submit that you would not, but maybe you will tell me otherwise.

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jasonr
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Am I afraid the PC brigade will drag me out of my home and shoot me in the street? Nope, at least not yet. Certainly it would come to that if they had the power - as Pyr repeatedly demonstrates there is simply no limit to what someone will do under the influence of an ideology that considers contrary thought and speech to be tantamount to direct assault...
You know, even had Pyr the power, I find it very unlikely that he would drag you out of your house and shoot you in the street. Not even for insinuating that he might.
Is there anyone you know who you think would do this? If not who are the people who keep doing these nasty things throughout 20th century history?
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D.W.
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See I'd take him aside, tell him our customers all think you have a **** attitude. I know you were under the illusion you were here to speak open minded or <chuckle> even open minds. However we are a business and your firmly held beliefs are a danger to our bottom line. Suck it up, put on the kid gloves and do your job. Let the real world kick them in the ass after we've got our money.

Problem solved and thing stay as messed up as they are today for another generation. Piece of cake.

Unless you are suggesting that after all that "safe place" sit downs and academic expert pondering comes to the conclusion that the teacher is right all along and they come up with a sensitive and convincing way to tell the kids that?

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Josh, that's an excellent question. So Pyr, supposing I continue to spit on your perspective (figuritavely speaking) and refuse to see reason no matter what. And supposing you're emperor for the week, what would you be willing to do about it? What is the remedy?

My answer to you there is the same as it was to him, with the addition that, due to the degree of active spite you demonstrate, that I'd be sure you were clear on the institutions anti-harassment policies and probably ensure that there was a well staffed safe-walk program so that no one who felt unsafe risked you cornering or targeting them alone, and could provide a verifiable report if your frustration at people not responding to your intimidation eventually moved escalated to actionable harassment or assault.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
You didn't answer his question Pyr. Josh is a professor at a university. He is never going to agree with you. So what needs to be done? Spit it out man.

I need answers to my questions before I can answer his. I can't meaningfully restate his point if I don't know what his point is. Absent clarification m the only actual point I could find, which is did reiterate nonjudgmentally, was "This will make white people uncomfortable"
Pyr you seem to not be so good at answering questions, even though your entire overture is based on the premise that we should be asking questions instead of making accusations. Shouldn't you be celebrating that we're asking questions instead of complaining that they're not in the form you would like? Here are the questions to date that you can address if you like:

1) Josh is a professor at a university where you are President. He disagrees with you on this topic vehemently and will say so in public. Now I'll add one premise that was the case here: Some students don't like what Josh is saying and demand his resignation. NOW the question is: What do you do? Do you make him resign to appease them? Do you support your staff member's right to his opinion and tell them to back off? Or do you do nothing and let them fight it out?

2) This is what I asked just before, and D.W. followed up on: What exactly is the nature of the 'threat' that the protesters think has been happening for the past year? Has it been a material threat, or more the kind of threat where people don't like the kinds of ideas being put forward? Before you say "abuse is abuse, physical or mental" please just answer the question as it's been asked.

3) Why do you think it's ok to tell people like Josh that he's a white supremacist when he's said nothing of the kind? Not only does this give him no credit for intellectual integrity but it also paints him in an even worse light than is necessary for you to just say he's wrong. People on the blogosphere seem ok with telling the unspecified public "you are all racists", but are you aware that writing about a specific individual that his goal is to make others bow down to whites is libelous?

[ November 13, 2015, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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jasonr
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Pyr you already stated that "wellbeing is wellbeing" dismissing the the black line between physical threat and psychological attack. Besides, most interplay now occurs online anyway. I don't need to jump out of the bushes to harass someone. So what about my disparaging comments on this forum? Let's say this was a university message board and we are students. What should be done to me?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Is there anyone you know who you think would do this? If not who are the people who keep doing these nasty things throughout 20th century history?

They tend to be people like you, wo cling to the belief that they are justified in harassing, intimidating, belittling, and otherwise acting spitefully toward others because they don't respect your state of authority.

Recall, that one of the fundamental differences that we're disagreeing over is my suggestion that I should respect you even if I disagree with you or criticize what you're doing, while you're asserting that if you disagree with me that entitles you to act spitefully toward me, especially if I ask you to try to act with a little more respect toward those you disagree with. It's that kind of dehumanization of your opponents that eventually helps serve as a rationalization for your perceived right to punish them.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
You didn't answer his question Pyr. Josh is a professor at a university. He is never going to agree with you. So what needs to be done? Spit it out man.

I need answers to my questions before I can answer his. I can't meaningfully restate his point if I don't know what his point is. Absent clarification m the only actual point I could find, which is did reiterate nonjudgmentally, was "This will make white people uncomfortable"
You called my point an attack and insulting and patronizing of black people... but you don't know what my point is? I think you know exactly what it is, and you just can't handle it head on - you have to pretend I said something else and attack that.

I'll restate it again.

quote:

Except that in responding the way they have, they are reinforcing (rather than reducing) racism. I do not want them to "be silent" about their experiences - quite the contrary, I think it is appropriate to discuss and revisit the issue frequently, because racism is so pernicious. It is an error, however, to expect progress to come by the application of force on the external world. The one thing that people have true control over is their own perceptions of the world. We don't control our bodies, our friends, our families, other people... but we DO control how we interpret events.
If someone were to leave (for example) a swastika on my door... well, I would likely call the police and hope that person would be caught. But if someone simply made a comment about Jews in my earshot, or even a comment about my beliefs personally, I would probably not lose a whole lot of sleep over it.

The reason is simple - my self-worth is already established and rock-solid. It is unshakable. This is difficult for most people, and *certainly* harder for black people (which is why gangsta-culture was so much insecurity made manifest), but it's not going to become more possible for them if they embrace their own identities as "oppressed". Once you internalize that, the game is over.


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D.W.
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But jasonr, we're on the internet. This IS a safe place! [Big Grin] None of us can hurt you here. I'd give you a hug... but I can't do that either... it's the internet.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Pyr you already stated that "wellbeing is wellbeing" dismissing the the black line between physical threat and psychological attack. Besides, most interplay now occurs online anyway. I don't need to jump out of the bushes to harass someone. So what about my disparaging comments on this forum? Let's say this was a university message board and we are students. What should be done to me?

You should not be allowed into safe discussion rooms within that forum that have been established so that people can have a place to talk free from harassment. And any student how feels the need to should have the ability to block you, such that they don't have to directly see your comments or be subject to your spite if they choose not to be.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

I would talk to those students that felt under threat from you about what I could do to provide them with a forum where they could be sure that they could discuss their issues and work for change without being subject to judgemental attacks. I'd very likely help them try to better convey to you why such attacks on them are demeaning and imply a lack of respect, though, having the resources of a university president, I'd probably reach out to academic experts on the faculty and at large in the community or even country to help arrange a series of talks and presentations for the entire community that addressed the issue and those around it.

Out of curiosity, would I be permitted to speak at these talks/presentations on campus, or to hold my own?
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D.W.
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The solution to someone being mean to you is to form a group and talk behind their back? Is this grade school or collage?
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jasonr
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What's a "safe discussion room" on a forum? I am not familiar with this concept. And really so you're okay with me spreading my spiteful poison so long as it's merely in the public section of the forum and not the "protected" one? What if people feel threatened by my views regardless of where they are posted?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
You called my point an attack and insulting and patronizing of black people... but you don't know what my point is? I think you know exactly what it is, and you just can't handle it head on - you have to pretend I said something else and attack that.

So again, the only point I can see there that isn't an attempt to suggest that they behave in a certain way to please you, the white majority, etc... is

"The way they're behaving will make the majority uncomfortable". I suppose I can extend that to include "And will reinforce prejudices among those where such is already deeply ingrained"

Stating that as a point sticks to non-judgemental facts, and invites discussion as to why they might feel the need to take actions that have those effects and risks, without insulting them by telling them how they should be behaving (and especially by saying that they should be behaving in a way that makes it clear that they need to appease the majority, as the need to appease is a behavior of subservience, not of equality.)

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jasonr
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quote:
Recall, that one of the fundamental differences that we're disagreeing over is my suggestion that I should respect you even if I disagree
Please cite the post where you made this "suggestion".
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D.W.
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We want not only freedom of speech but freedom FROM speech. When face to face encounters are equivalent to everyone posting on their facebook page and only those they invite (and choose not to uninvited later) can read and comment, we will have achieved social nirvana.

Or the fall of society. One of those I'm sure. Augmented reality glasses and a good set of headphones and this could be a reality soon. Your computer could "edit out" offensive interactions with people. [Smile]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

I would talk to those students that felt under threat from you about what I could do to provide them with a forum where they could be sure that they could discuss their issues and work for change without being subject to judgemental attacks. I'd very likely help them try to better convey to you why such attacks on them are demeaning and imply a lack of respect, though, having the resources of a university president, I'd probably reach out to academic experts on the faculty and at large in the community or even country to help arrange a series of talks and presentations for the entire community that addressed the issue and those around it.

Out of curiosity, would I be permitted to speak at these talks/presentations on campus, or to hold my own?
You'd have the same freedom that any student or student organization has to do so., just so long. That would include holding an outright debate on the issue if all parties were in agreement to doing so.
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Fenring
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Pyr I know you're getting bombarded from all sides at the moment, but I'm just reminding you that you're dodging the questions entirely in favor of non-answers. You have not even begun to address your response to what Josh and jasonr have asked you (or to my three questions, but I'll be patient as you may be busy at the moment).
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
Recall, that one of the fundamental differences that we're disagreeing over is my suggestion that I should respect you even if I disagree
Please cite the post where you made this "suggestion".
That's been my main point in just about every message since I engaged in this thread. I will certainly go back and copy the verious places where I've pointed out that basic respect including the benefit of the doubt that they understand have a reason for their actions should be the default starting point if you really want me to, but that seems redundant with so many people up in arms and actively resisting the notion that it would be far more productive to treat the protestors with basic respect and rely on evidence to build criticism rather than start by insulting and attacking them out of the gate, and requiring others to find you evidence to grant them grudging respect.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
Pyr I know you're getting bombarded from all sides at the moment, but I'm just reminding you that you're dodging the questions entirely in favor of non-answers. You have not even begun to address your response to what Josh and jasonr have asked you (or to my three questions, but I'll be patient as you may be busy at the moment).

Your questions looked like good ones, unfortunately that means I might actualyl have to take some time to try and help you find answers, while it's easier to jot off quick responses to Josh and Jason.

AS to non-answers, I'm answering the best I can given the material I'm given. Better questions get better answers.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

I would talk to those students that felt under threat from you about what I could do to provide them with a forum where they could be sure that they could discuss their issues and work for change without being subject to judgemental attacks. I'd very likely help them try to better convey to you why such attacks on them are demeaning and imply a lack of respect, though, having the resources of a university president, I'd probably reach out to academic experts on the faculty and at large in the community or even country to help arrange a series of talks and presentations for the entire community that addressed the issue and those around it.

Out of curiosity, would I be permitted to speak at these talks/presentations on campus, or to hold my own?
You'd have the same freedom that any student or student organization has to do so., just so long. That would include holding an outright debate on the issue if all parties were in agreement to doing so.
Would you permit the establishment of a forum/debate that was "blacks only"?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
What's a "safe discussion room" on a forum? I am not familiar with this concept. And really so you're okay with me spreading my spiteful poison so long as it's merely in the public section of the forum and not the "protected" one? What if people feel threatened by my views regardless of where they are posted?

If people know that it's an unsafe area and can choose to avoid it, then they have the power they need to protect themselves. So long as any areas that they actually need to access are well moderated or they can block you if need be, then yes, you are just as free to have your own soapbox as they are to not pay any attention to you. It's only when the situation is engineered that they're forced to be your audience that it becomes unsafe and problematic.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Would you permit the establishment of a forum/debate that was "blacks only"?

Given that they lack the same power to do so on their own to gain the benefits of free expression that whites effectively have by virtue of being the majority, most likely yes.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Would you permit the establishment of a forum/debate that was "blacks only"?

Given that they lack the same power to do so on their own to gain the benefits of free expression that whites effectively have by virtue of being the majority, most likely yes.
And can I take that last statement to mean there could not be, under your administration, a similar forum for "whites only"?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
The solution to someone being mean to you is to form a group and talk behind their back? Is this grade school or collage?

Ah, so wanting to be safe from attacks and degradation is "childish"? Akin to being in grade school? Might you consider that that comparison is just a bit insulting and degrading, even without getting into how it demonstrates a lack of understand of the issue and the need to establish a baseline sense of security?

Wouldn't be better and more respectful to say "I don't understand how and why this would be beneficial." Than to imply that people who feel they need such are acting like children?

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Would you permit the establishment of a forum/debate that was "blacks only"?

Given that they lack the same power to do so on their own to gain the benefits of free expression that whites effectively have by virtue of being the majority, most likely yes.
And can I take that last statement to mean there could not be, under your administration, a similar forum for "whites only"?
Whites already have the ability to speak freely and act without fear of discriminatory attacks in society at large, so there's no similar justification to carving out a place where they can enjoy the same freedoms that whites have on the basis of being white. If a group of white kids want to form and exclusive club they want, so long as it doesn't become a vehicle for essential access to university events and resources, they're already free to do so without any special need for institutional support.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
Your questions looked like good ones, unfortunately that means I might actualyl have to take some time to try and help you find answers, while it's easier to jot off quick responses to Josh and Jason.

AS to non-answers, I'm answering the best I can given the material I'm given. Better questions get better answers.

My question #2 requires some research so I certainly couldn't fault you for delaying on that or ignoring it. That being said it's probably the most important question in the thread, in my opinion. Questions 1 and 3 don't require research, just your off-the-cuff opinion.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
We want not only freedom of speech but freedom FROM speech.

Freedom of speech just means that the government cannot take legal action against you for what you say. It does not imply freedom from criticism by other members of the public (as that's their freedom of speech) and it does not imply the power to force others to listen you you.

We're back to effectively dismissing the notion of casts and physical therapy for a broken leg in favor of suggesting that the best cure is to run marathons till you get over it.

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