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Author Topic: Another step down the road
Rafi
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quote:
resident Obama on Tuesday morning asked people to make their own judgment about the 12-country Trans-Pacific Partnership trade pact by reading it themselves online.

"Along with the text of the agreement, we've posted detailed materials to help explain it," Obama wrote in an op-ed for Bloomberg. "It's an unprecedented degree of transparency — and it's the right thing to do."

Ain't that great!

quote:
The administration's Trans-Pacific Partnership treaty legislation is 5,554 pages long, twice that of Obamacare and nearly 3 feet high...
So slog through that America, it's the right thing to do! And after you spend the hundreds of hours reading all that, console yourself with the knowledge that cause this is fast-tracked, it cannot be filibustered or amended. It's the right thing to do.
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Pete at Home
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Remind me, which party holds the senate?
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yossarian22c
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Well, since it is a treaty negotiated over 5+ years with multiple nations it would never get passed if every country's legislature tacked on their own pet issues.

I'm not saying TPP is a good deal, I haven't read enough about it to know but I do support the principle of fast track authority for presidents negotiating multi-state treaties.

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Remind me, which party holds the senate?

There's a difference?
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by yossarian22c:
Well, since it is a treaty negotiated over 5+ years with multiple nations it would never get passed if every country's legislature tacked on their own pet issues.

I'm not saying TPP is a good deal, I haven't read enough about it to know but I do support the principle of fast track authority for presidents negotiating multi-state treaties.

It's not the good or bad of the deal, it's the process. It's what passes for transparency and the Orwellian assertion that it's the right thing to do.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Remind me, which party holds the senate?

There's a difference?
Yuge!
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Remind me, which party holds the senate?

There's a difference?
Some similarities, I grant you. Both parties endorse a fascist health care system, with the current Republican proposals being actually more fascistic than Obamacare, which is saying a lot. Private Practice is about to baend over to big McChain hospital and health care provision.

The peincipal difference is that one party asserts that Obama is the Messiah and the other that he is the Antichrist. So senate composition does affect whether senate proposals by O man get voted up or down

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Rafi
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They make their assertions and both line up behind him. The differences are cosmetic at best and designed to give the illusion of choice.

Anyone thinking there is a huge difference between the ruling political classes is a fool.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
They make their assertions and both line up behind him. The differences are cosmetic at best and designed to give the illusion of choice.

Anyone thinking there is a huge difference between the ruling political classes is a fool.

Overstated by half. The two major parties are more similar to each other than to outsider groups, but that's an obvious observation. The fights in Congress are pretty bitter about a lot of things, including immigration, tax policy, budgets and social programs to name the bigger ones. I wouldn't call those differences "cosmetic".

OTOH, the GOP wannabe's who aren't Party "regulars" are falling over each other to distance themselves from policies that the GOP establishment as represented in Congress would promote or accept. For instance, Carly wants to replace the entire tax code with a three page (single spaced?) document, Cruz would abolish entire federal agencies with a wave of his wand - er, hand -, Rand would decimate the military, Carson would store grain in the White House basement, Trump wants his wall, and Huckabee believes that the Supreme Court has no authority over Congress, especially when it comes to requiring religious behavior to align with the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Where the two Parties most agree is on procedure and process, which forces them to compromise to get anything at all done. That makes sense, since extremists like the GOP primary lineup are fascist in their intent that they can simply mandate policies that they are passionate about that everyone will have to endure.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
The principal difference is that one party asserts that Obama is the Messiah and the other that he is the Antichrist.
Say, Pete, I know which party thinks Obama is the Antichrist, but which party thinks he is the Messiah? [Confused]

I know which party thinks the other party must think Obama is the Messiah, but that is an entirely different thing... [Smile]

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Fenring
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There are only two real parties: the party owned by business and military, and anyone else. Most candidates have all been in the same party for the last several Presidencies, with the occasional non-member like Ross Perot. In this election I think there are possibly multiple people not in the War Party, and they include both Democrats and Republicans. This in itself is a significant change that pleases me, but the question is whether the people will realize what the real party lines are. The debates thus far have been designed with the full intention of outlining the election process as being about DEMOCRAT VS REPUBLICAN and this is the narrative they want to put forward; this is the "us vs them" they want the people to see as reality. If the candidates went by their real party names (e.g. "so-and-so running for the War Party" and "so-and-so running for the peace and cooperation party") the voting would be ever so different.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
There are only two real parties: the party owned by business and military, and anyone else.
That reminds me of the even bigger truth that there are two kinds of people in this world, those who divide people into two kinds and those who don't.

You'll notice that the "outsiders" are all advocating policy positions that could only be enacted by Executive Orders. How does that square with their outrage that Obama is doing exactly the same thing?

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
quote:
There are only two real parties: the party owned by business and military, and anyone else.
That reminds me of the even bigger truth that there are two kinds of people in this world, those who divide people into two kinds and those who don't.

You'll notice that the "outsiders" are all advocating policy positions that could only be enacted by Executive Orders. How does that square with their outrage that Obama is doing exactly the same thing?

There is a difference between a President's views and allegiances, and what his actual job is. Let's say a candidate like Bernie wants to try to move American towards a system where college is free and is a right for everyone. Do you think by him wanting this that he's just going to arrange it by Imperial fiat? There's no reason to believe that every candidate will abuse the executive order system, even though there appears to not be much of a system for it anyhow. The point of a President believing in certain things is supposed to be that he can spearhead Congressional action for such things. So, no, these candidates are not suggesting things that can "only be enacted by Executive Orders", that's patently ridiculous.

The only area a President can effect his will immediately and without having to go through channels is in matters of foreign policy involving the intelligence agencies and the military, and this crucial area of a President's purview is exactly where the real party line of War Party vs Other comes into sharpest relief. People owned and in the War Party will exercise this power in such a way as to benefit their owners, whereas as least the others can perhaps use their own discretion and not do murder at the behest of interested parties.

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NobleHunter
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Though some of the things GOP candidates are suggesting aren't even something Congress can do. Which is darkly amusing coming from the "limited government" party.
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Pyrtolin
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I'll point out that Bernie has been very clear that electing him or any other Democrat won't matter at all without sufficient electoral engagement to change Congress and state legislatures/governors as well. He's not expecting to enact policy via executive order, he's trying to figure out how to get enough of the electorate to the polls to change the current legislative situation as well.
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
I'll point out that Bernie has been very clear that electing him or any other Democrat won't matter at all without sufficient electoral engagement to change Congress and state legislatures/governors as well. He's not expecting to enact policy via executive order, he's trying to figure out how to get enough of the electorate to the polls to change the current legislative situation as well.

You're absolutely right, and he doesn't only mean getting people to the polls. He believes people should literally be taking to the streets, perhaps something akin to Occupy. This can also include writing letters to Congressmen, attending town hall sessions, and other means of actively participating in government. He says that all of this is needed to get the Congress to actually listen and do something. Only fearing the wrath of their constituency will likely lead to real change, and I think Bernie is completely right about this.

Any kind of statement that Bernie is going to do these things by himself is precisely counter to everything he says. He is the only candidate who admits freely that he can't make all kinds of unilateral promises. He says what's important to him but not that he can magically make it happen. One of the few areas that he can actually make happen by himself is in reducing the aggression in foreign policy, and this is a crucial area of concern in my opinion.

[ November 15, 2015, 03:52 AM: Message edited by: Fenring ]

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