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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Paris on the front lines (Page 7)

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Author Topic: Paris on the front lines
D.W.
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I stand corrected NH. I'm all for protecting the trans-humanists until they can save the rest of the world from their self destructive foolishness. [Wink]

You know, when they're not wasting time surgically inserting LED's into their hands for giggles.

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
So you would rewrite our DNA by creating clear rules that people will only follow when secure and content with their lot in life?

Um, what have civilization and behavior guidelines got to do with the conditions that make following them difficult or impossible? You can make any code of conduct and then create harsh conditions that will make it break down. Does it follow from this that there should be no codes of conduct? Rather, I think it follows from this that there are two elements needed for civilization: good conditions, and a good code. I, personally, think that good conditions should be a higher immediate priority, but that shouldn't disqualify us from also addressing what might be a problematic code.
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D.W.
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Civilization and behavior guidelines always serve a goal.

If in power, the guidelines vilify those taking actions out of desperation or weakness as impolite, uncivilized, barbarous or monstrous as you go up the scale.

If at a power disadvantage, the guidelines vilify the oppressor and extols sacrifice, heroism against overwhelming odds and an "end justifies the means" mentality.

The situation dictates the guidelines, NOT the other way around. What you are talking about is propaganda. That's different.

And to a lesser extent, the rule of law

[ November 23, 2015, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Fenring
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Ok, D.W., let's make this more specific and take a particular document that was meant to address codes of conduct in war: the Geneva Convention. How do you categorize this document in terms of whether its authors were at a power disadvantage or a power advantage, and what the document meant for people at all walks of life?

On the face of it I have the sense that the code of the GC was meant to make life more humane for everyone, no matter who they were, and to prevent the worst atrocities in the name of victory. We now know that virtually no major power has seen fit to obey this code. Do we blame the code, or the conditions? You could argue that it's human nature to torture people for information, or that it's human nature to hold enemy combatants without due process, and so what's the point of the GC? But I would argue that the fault lies in the environment (i.e. conditions) whereby the ignoring of the document goes unopposed. And I don't mean Americans screaming at someone else for ignoring it, I mean for instance Americans screaming at America for ignoring it. So in this case we could arguably assess the problem as being the conditions, and not the code. But what about other cases where the code may be partially (but not entirely) at fault as well?

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D.W.
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What is a code which is followed piecemeal or abandoned when expedient if not propaganda? For that matter the GC shares traits with some religious teachings.

What this document did was to point out that it is in our human nature to do awful things to each other in times of war. Much like religion teaching us humanity does awful things to each other. Then it implores us to strive to do better to BE better.

As long as things don't get TOO desperate we can convince ourselves we ARE better. It also has an added benefit of establishing a status quo. If things are in general decent shape this works out well. Those using those desperate measures which "no good guy would use" can be scorned by all the signatories. They may even, fearing a smear on their own "good guy" status, come to the aid of those sieged by a "bad guy".

I don't think we see enough Americans screaming at America for ignoring it. The line between desperation and fear shorted the fail-safes.

Any treaty or agreement or faith system that dictates behavior exists to exert peer pressure and entangle personal honor into behavioral control. Or fear of loosing divine favor...

I'll add that being in power does not assume aggressiveness. Code systems can be finely tuned towards retaining power as well.

[ November 23, 2015, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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JeSuisse
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quote:
The only way we stay safe and sane is separation of powers, pluralism, transparency, and avoidance of structures where individuals within a group cannot go outside a group for remedy of injustices.
Amen to that. :-)
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JeSuisse
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quote:
Iceland, Granada, Ireland ... Maybe Switzerland and possibly England won't be a part of a Caliphate 100 years from now.
Seriously? Your vision for the future is terribly depressing.

I'm betting most other countries won't be part of a Caliphate, even if this self-styled caliphate (which currently wants to kill a large percentage of Muslims instead of uniting them) survives longer than a few years (which I doubt as long as it doesn't turn itself into anything sane). What makes you think it's such a huge long-term threat? What makes you think it'll stay afloat economically, make peace with the Shia, not collapse by it's own internal conflicts, not be beaten by one of the surounding nations, not be twarthed by action of western nations when it tries to capture more oil fields, not be opposed by at least the US and possibly several European nations when it tries to destroy Israel (in fact: not be destroyed by Israel, who most likely has thermonuclear capability and will use that if the threat is great enough), not overextend itself like expansionist states did in the past, if it actually manages to gain control of the whole region, etc etc?

[ November 23, 2015, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: JeSuisse ]

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Pete at Home
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"Iceland, Granada, Ireland ... Maybe Switzerland and possibly England won't be a part of a Caliphate 100 years from now.
Seriously? Your vision for the future is terribly depressing"

Cheer me up. Tell me how things could go differently if America elects another Pres who follows the course we have followed since Reagan of sucking up to Islamists and winking at Mexican kleptocracy.

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Pete at Home
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Will rspond to rest later
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Pete at Home
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"even if this self-styled caliphate (which currently wants to kill a large percentage of Muslims instead of uniting them) "

Well, show me where Muslims in Muslim countries have protested against DAESH as enthusiastically, as, say, against some stupid blasphemy? Evidently they don't se ISIS as any great threat.


"survives longer than a few years (which I doubt as long as it doesn't turn itself into anything sane)."

Say it turns itself as "sane" as Saudi Arabia. Feel happy now, living in the Eurasian Grand Validate?


"What makes you think it's such a huge long-term threat?"

Bread and circuses. It's duplicated the forks of terrorism that made Rome endure. See above.


" What makes you think it'll stay afloat economically,"

It very well may implode when it reaches its maximum border size and stop growing, but it's economy is fueled by continual war.


"make peace with the Shia"

Say it doesn't. Iran remains a thorn in its side, using terrorism a bit less vile. So what? Europe is still history.


" not collapse by it's own internal conflicts,"

Eventually it does. But the gradual conquest and rape of Europe will divert islamists' hatred of each other for a time, until they run out of fresh new foreign women to rape.
.

" not be beaten by one of the surounding nations"

Which. Russia might hold them at bay by threatening to nuke mecca. Will they stick their necks out for France, Italy? J'en doute.

" when it tries to destroy Israel (in fact: not be destroyed by Israel, who most likely has thermonuclear capability and will use that if the threat is great enough)"

OK, say they don't destroy Israel.

" not overextend itself like expansionist states did in the past"

They will, eventually.

" if it actually manages to gain control of the whole region, etc etc?"

Oh, it won't last forever unless they adapt Sharia economics.

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
President Barack Obama said that ISIS was 'contained' just a day before the terrorist group claimed responsibility for a horrific attack in Paris that killed 128 people on Friday.

In an interview with ABC’s George Stephanopoulos that aired on Friday's broadcast of Good Morning America, Obama declared that he didn't believe ISIS (also known as ISIL) was gaining strength.

'What is true is that from the start, our goal has been first to contain and we have contained them,' Obama said in the interview.

From the JV comments to just before the Paris attacks, this frigging guy has been disconnected from the reality of the threat. I'd like to think nobody is possibly this stupid but it's getting pretty hard to make the case otherwise.
How much new territory are you suggesting they took in this attack?

Or are you just a bit confused on context here?

Reality check:
quote:
States has "not contained" the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS), the nation's top military officer said Tuesday, contradicting President Obama's remarks last month about the terror group.

"We have not contained" ISIS, Marine Gen. Joseph Dunford, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told lawmakers at a House Armed Services Committee hearing.

Want to tell me again about being "confused"?
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Pyrtolin
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Was he using "contained" to mean the same thing, in context, that Obama was? Was he just referring to territorial control, like Obama, or was he perhaps talking about overall ability to conduct operations?

Words draw meaning from context, so unless you can show that the context was the same in both cases, just happening to use the same word doesn't mean they mean the same thing.

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Pete at Home
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It all depends what your meaning of "is" is.

IsIs must have had its name inspired by Bill Clinton's infamous line.

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Pete at Home
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If Barry mean territoriality contained that's even dumber, as it ignores boko Haram's becoming an ISIS franchise. And the Lydia group. Barry's drawn a line around one mark on a chicken pot victim and says contained as other eruptions appear across the globe.

[ December 02, 2015, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
If Barry mean territoriality contained that's even dumber, as it ignores boko Haram's becoming an ISIS franchise. And the Lydia group. Barry's drawn a line around one mark on a chicken pot victim and says contained as other eruptions appear across the globe.

Is he ignoring those? Or was he talking about one specific thing in a specific context while you concern troll him for not always talking about every possible thing in every possible context?
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
Was he using "contained" to mean the same thing, in context, that Obama was? Was he just referring to territorial control, like Obama, or was he perhaps talking about overall ability to conduct operations?

Words draw meaning from context, so unless you can show that the context was the same in both cases, just happening to use the same word doesn't mean they mean the same thing.

Dude, it means the same thing. Dance and spin but in the end it means exactly the same thing. Check the video of testimony, it's obvious to anyone with a brain cell.

Obama's contained story was just a lie or he's so poorly informed he didn't know what he was talking about. I suspect both.

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AI Wessex
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You should look up "contained" in a dictionary*. It doesn't mean a hermetic seal; it means that they don't have the resources to expand their territory. YARTP**

* synonyms: restrain, curb, rein in, suppress, repress, stifle, subdue, quell, swallow, bottle up, hold in, keep in check control, master

** Yet Another Republican Talking Point.

[ December 02, 2015, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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